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Comments
The EGR valve is normally mounted on the rear of the intake manifold runner for # 3 cylinder; close to the throttle body. Here's a link to a photo: (http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=88142). If there is no valve there; but you can see a block off plate on the manifold; then someone has removed the valve. If there is no block off plate on the manifold; then the engine you have was originally intended for a non-US application; or else is a mixture of US and non US spec parts. Such a motor will never run properly; because there is no computer that is calibrated for use without an EGR valve.
Whether or not you locate or install an EGR valve, I would strongly recommend running a compression test on all cylinders. The normal compression pressure on this motor is 195psi. The minimum allowable pressure in any cylinder is 165 psi. If any cylinder pressure is below the minimum limit; the motor will not be capable of producing good fuel economy, regardless of adjustments.
Other things which make this motor impossible to tune properly are the use of an unsuitable spark plug. NGKs just do not run well in Metros. The only plugs that run well in these motors are Champion # 322 (RN11YC4), Bosch Super Plus # 7907, Bosch Platinum # 4219, Autolite # 63 or # AP63, or AC Delco Rapidfire # 4. The plug gap should be checked before installation and adjusted to .041" if necessary.
If the compression is within the above specs; and the recommended plugs are being used; disconnect both vacuum advance diaphragms on the distributor, plug the hoses, and check the ignition timing with a strobe light at idle. It should be set to 6 degrees BTDC at <850 RPM idle speed. Check both vacuum advance units to make sure they do not leak or bleed down when a vacuum is applied. Check the centrifugal advance mechanism by turning the rotor counterclockwise by hand to make sure it moves through the entire range of travel without binding; and springs back to the retarded position when it is released.
If all the above items are correct, and the mileage is still that poor; the fuel injector is probably leaking at the seals. Rock Auto has an exchange process for reconditioning Metro injectors.
I had a similar problem that drove me nuts. After driving 10-20 miles without a problem I would suddenly lose power and was barely able to keep it going. Drop the car in neutral and it reved up fine. Put it in drive and it would spit-sputter, and barely run. It felt like I was running out of gas, when I knew the tank was full. Under the back seat (inside the car) there is a connector that goes to the fuel pump. A bad connection here is like shutting on and off the fuel pump (or down the road maybe just low fuel pressure as it makes and breaks) After the connection cools down and makes a good connection again the car is miraculously cured til you hit a bump or the connector heats up again.
Connecting a fuel pressure gauge in line and taping it to the window where you can see it will pinpoint or eliminate fuel pressure problems. But for the connector, just clean or replace it and make sure you have a solid connection.
BTW...low gas pressure may not produce any computer code.
NOTE: If this car has an air conditioning unit the defroster runs off of AC unit and will affect IAC Valve
By the way I have a manual trans. in my stock 94 GEO Metro LSI 1.0L, I never average less then 63 MPG at a steady 59MPH on a flat road with regular gas. Avg city is 47. You may not want to junk your car in the spring time because of rust. If it is the frame that is rusting near where the left front control arm bolts on you could sand blast and weld a patch to it before it brakes.
The professional way to sort out these possibilities is to first buy or borrow a compression gauge, or pay someone to check the compression in all cylinders. On the Metro; it should be at least 160 psi (normal compression is 195 psi). If any cylinder pressure is below that figure; the motor will not start or run reliably. Low compression in all cylinders often indicates the timing belt has slipped out of position.
If the compression is good, look at the spark plugs. The electrodes which project into the motor should be clean and dry. If they are wet or the porcelain insulators are black; the plug will not be able to ignite the incoming fuel. The electrode gap should be .040" (1.0 mm). If the gap is significantly larger than that; the motor will be liable to not start. Install a new set of spark plugs if there is any doubt about their condition. I recommend Autolite # 63 plugs (use #5503 on motors with 5/8" hex plugs).
Distributor caps and rotors will keep the motor from starting if they become too dirty on either the inside or outside surface. Spark plug cables must have less than 1,000 ohms resistance per inch of length. The battery voltage should not drop below 10 volts while the starter is cranking (if you don't have access to a meter; turn the headlights on, and watch the lights while trying to start the motor). If the lights dim substantially or go out when you run the starter, the battery is too weak to start the motor effectively. This can come from an old or worn out battery; or from an alternator that is not properly charging the battery when the motor runs.
If there seems to be no problem with the compression or ignition; remove the air cleaner lid, and spray a two second burst of engine starting fluid into the throttle body air inlet while the throttle butterfly is held partly open. Then release the accelerator, quickly put the lid back on the air filter housing, and try to start the motor. It it starts and then stalls; the engine is not getting enough fuel. This may be caused by a clogged fuel filter, by the car being out of gas; or by a bad fuel pump or fuel pump relay.
The way to split the overlap is to remove the valve cover, and turn the crankshaft until the nose of both lobes for #1 cylinder are pointing upward. Then, using a caliper or a dial indicator; carefully rotate the crankshaft small amounts in either direction until both the intake and exhaust valve for #1 cylinder are opened an equal distance. You may need to reference the amount the valves are open against a fixed object; or lay a straightedge across the flange on top of the head and measure from that. Once you have determined the crankshaft position where both valves are open equally; look at the timing notch on the pulley, and read the mark on the timing cover degree scale that the pulley notch lines up with. That is the mark which should be used for setting the crankshaft position where the marks on the cam sprocket line up with the flange on the top of the head. The timing belt should be installed in that position. If the mark is way off the stock position (which I expect it will be) please check to see whether the woodruff key that locates the crank pulley on the crankshaft has been left out or sheared off. If that key was overlooked or improperly aligned when the pulley was installed; it would throw the marks way off and make it impossible to set the cam timing.
if the car was running though, and drove a bit (not a ton) on the new cam as is, would that have happened if it was that far off? Just seems like I would have never had it running in the first place if that was the issue.
Whatever the cause; it is futile to try to make the engine run with such terrible compression. If your gauge is correct, and the low compression is not the result of the cam being out of time; then it is caused by burned valves and/or worn piston rings. If that is the case; the compression may have finally dropped below the level which was necessary for the motor to be able to start at all.
But some very worthwhile tests you could run are to measure the voltage at the positive primary terminal of the ignition coil WHILE THE STARTER IS RUNNING. Testing the voltage at the coil when the motor is stopped will not give you meaningful information; because there is essentially no current flowing through the coil primary when the crankshaft is not turning. (The module automatically shuts the coil current off when it does not receive trigger signals from the crank position sensor). A defective camshaft position sensor will also shut the spark down.
If you find that the 12 V supply voltage at the high side of the coil drops way off when the starter runs; this means that there is a resistive connection in the ignition switch or the battery cables; or the battery is too weak to start the motor.
If the voltage remains unchanged at the coil during cranking; then the module is probably not receiving a trigger signal. You can create a known good trigger signal by momentarily connecting a 1 1/2 volt flashlight battery to the two wires that go to the crank position sensor while the ignition key is in the on position. The flashlight battery polarity may need to be reversed to create a good spark. If this test creates consistent sparks from the coil; then the coil is not receiving a signal from the crank position sensor. The clearance between the crank sensor and the trigger wheel is very critical. I have heard of people who replaced the oil pan gasket with a thicker one; and found that it shut down the crank sensor (because the thicker gasket moved the sensor further away from the crankshaft).
Facility tested battery - great
Facility replaced starter Saturday - it rained Monday and would not start. Today it rained and again won't start. In between it did not rain and started.
Vehicle generally seems to start fine on most occasions, but intermittently it simply refuses to start - and when it does finally start everything's fine.
On one occasion, while vehicle was in motion, CHECK ENGINE light popped on and vehicle died. Coasted to a lot, waited and after several attempts, it started and everything seemed fine.
I assumed it was starving for gas, but pumping the pedal seems to do nothing.
It seems electrical but I honestly don't know.
Replaced ignition module - still same issue. Any ideas?
The problem you describe most likely comes from a either a defective crankshaft position sensor or a defective camshaft position sensor. Both of these sensors send signals to the computer about when to produce sparks and trigger the fuel injector. They are known to fail; and when they go out; the motor either stops, or will not start.
There is one potentially complicating factor here; if the oil pan gasket has been replaced with one which is thicker than the original part, it will increase the distance between the crankshaft position sensor and its trigger source. That can prevent the engine from starting. But if the oil pan gasket was not changed around the time this problem began; then just replace those two sensors. I would change the crankshaft position sensor first. If that doesn't solve the problem; then change the camshaft position sensor.
So in order to not waste my time or yours; we need to use words that we both understand. You said you had the "cmp" checked. Sorry; but "cmp" could mean compression, or it could mean computer. And I can't read your mind or guess accurately. So, please don't use abbreviations. If you meant that the compression was checked, and it was "OK," do you mean that the person who checked it told you it was OK, or do you mean that you saw the numbers and they were all within 15 pounds of each other? Again; I'm sorry, but this level of information doesn't mean diddly squat to me. Both of those answers would FAIL a compression test!!! Here's why: Most mechanics do not know that the normal compression on a Geo Metro is much higher than the normal compression on other brands of cars. So if they check the compression and find it is between 140 and 150 (which would be good on most other cars); they say it is OK. BUT THAT IS DEAD WRONG; the NORMAL compression on a Metro is 195psi; and the LOWEST allowable compression is 165. If the mechanic gets readings that are all within 15 pounds of each other; they say it is OK; but if ANY of those readings is below 165; that fails the compression test.
If you installed the wrong type of coil; that could have caused it. There are several very different types of coils; which all basically look the same. If you bought the coil new at a parts store; the parts person may still have sold you the wrong coil. The coil that matches your car should look like the one in the following link: (http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=929505). If the coil you now have does not look like the one in the photo; you have the wrong coil.
If the spark plug cables on your car have aged and developed too much resistance; this would make the spark weak. This applies to the coil wire as well as the plug wires. Did you check the plug wire resistance; or have you installed new wires?
If the spark plugs in your car are fouled, or worn, or are the wrong type, or the gap is set too wide; that would also make the car hard to start and hesitate. But most people can not tell the difference between a worn plug and a good plug, and an improperly gapped plug by looking at it.
I'm sorry to be hard on you in this way. I realize there probably is a language difficulty here, and that you may be dealing with ignorant mechanics. But I still cannot help you unless you give me clear, accurate, and complete information.
1> Measure the resistance of all the plug wires. If any one of them has more than 25,000 ohms, or if you don't have an ohmmeter; replace the whole plug wire set. Make sure that the wire terminals are inserted all the way into the coil and the distributor cap sockets.
2> Check to see that there are TWO ground wires coming from the battery negative terminal. One of those is the heavy ground cable that goes to the engine block. The other one is a smaller wire that goes from the negative battery terminal to a bolt in the fender near the battery. If the smaller ground wire is not there anymore; fabricate a new ground wire from a length of 12 gauge stranded wire, crimp some ring terminals on it, and connect it between the battery negative cable clamp bolt and a clean bolt in the fender.
3> Check the BACK of the intake manifold, a little closer to the passenger side of the engine, to find the ground bolt where many wires are connected. This bolt must be clean and tight. If it is at all loose; or there is any sign of corrosion on it or the wires; take the bolt out and file all the surfaces of each wire connector until they are shiny. Also file the manifold surface and the underside of the bolt head. Put the bolt back in, and tighten it securely.
4> There is also another grounding bolt on the firewall, close to the middle of the firewall, just above the ledge; where the small wire from the distributor body connects. If this wire has been removed; you must fabricate another one and install it there. #14 or 16 gauge wire will be OK for that one.
5> Please replace the spark plugs with a set of Autolite #63, with the electrode gap set to .040" (1.0mm). DO NOT USE NGK PLUGS IN THIS MOTOR.
6> I would also recommend replacing the fuel filter. It is underneath the car, on the driver's side, along the fuel line, in front of the fuel tank (just in front of the left rear wheel). The fuel filter is covered by a plate that is held on by 2 or 3 small bolts.
7> If you have a voltmeter; measure the voltage across the battery terminals while the starter runs. It should be more than 10 volts while the starter is running. If it is lower than 10 volts; disconnect both battery cables and scrape the inside surface of the cable clamps with a round file or a battery cable service tool until they are shiny. Also clean the battery posts. Reinstall and tighten the battery cable clamps. If the voltage is still less than 10 volts while the starter cranks; charge the battery with a battery charger, or try a different battery.
8> Once the battery voltage is greater than 10 volts while the starter runs; go to the ignition coil, and measure the voltage at the battery wire to the coil while the starter is running. All the wires should be connected to the coil when you measure the voltage. If the voltage is lower than 0.7 volts below the reading you got across the battery when the starter was running; the ignition switch should be replaced.
9> Please bear in mind that the Metro ignition switch cannot be bypassed or Hot Wired. it must be connected normally for the spark to work properly.
Anyone have any ideas? Also a 1996 Geo but a Prizm, same engine, and about the same miles.
I bought a 1996 Geo Metro a couple of weeks ago. The body is rough but it runs great, I bought this for the gas mileage plus it looks like a fun car to drive. The headlights did not work but after scouring this forum, I found a bad connection at the fuse box and corrected it. My new problem after driving it to work a few days is the oil consumption. It uses a quart about every 75 miles. It has no visible leaks so it must be burning it. I checked compression and #1 has about 60 psi while #2 & 3 have about 120 psi. A squirt of oil in cylinder makes no difference. Cylinder 1 has a cloud shoots out when the engine is cranked with plugs out. I have concluded a bad valve in #1 cylinder but can't imagine why that would cause my oil problem.
Any advice or hints would be greatly appreciated. I am fairly handy around cars and have done almost every repair to my vehicles but haven't done a valve job in more years than I can remember. I have gotten prices for valves and gaskets from local auto parts store but have to wonder if I am being soaked a little on price. The parts are adding up almost to what I paid for the car.
Thanks for your time and expertise.
If you go through this forum; you'll find post after post with the same sad story: Someone bought a Metro without checking the compression; either because they thought it ran well (because they didn't know how strong a Metro that really runs properly will pull) or because it was cheap and they thought they could fix it up easily and inexpensively; or they may have checked the compression but had no idea of how much higher the pressure spec is on a Metro than on the cars they were familiar with. They then found they couldn't make it run consistently, or it only got 35 mpg while good running Metros get 55, or it burned all sorts of oil. So they wrote in looking for a cheap and easy fix. SORRY; there is no cheap or easy fix. You need a new motor.
This often happens to Metros with relatively low miles on them; because these motors are far more sensitive to abuse such as switching between different brands of oil (which less efficient motors may not be visibly harmed by; but the highly tuned Metro motor will fall apart from) or adjusting the ignition timing without first disabling the electronic advance circuit (which will lead to burning the valves); or using the wrong spark plug (which can lead to detonation and piston damage).
However; a Metro which has used the same brand and type of oil all its life, never had the ignition timing set improperly, never had the wrong spark plugs used it it, never was overheated, and was not run faster than 70 mph or run under excessive load for long periods, will last well over 200,000 miles and still have good compression.
I drive a 1990 3 cylinder 5 speed with over 300,000 miles on it which has never needed any engine work, and runs better today than when I bought it 19 years ago. I use Castrol Syntec full synthetic oil in 5W-50 grade, change it every 7,500 miles, and along with the regular oil filter, also have an Amsoil bypass oil filter on it that filters out particles 1/10th the size that a regular filter will remove.
On engines like this; this kind of picky maintenance makes all the difference.
The best place to buy Metro parts is www.rockauto.com. The best source for quality remanufactured engines is www.hiperformer.com. They are in Spokane, Washington, and ship engines all over the U.S. at very affordable prices. Their remanufactured engines come with a 7 year, 100,000 mile warranty. They sell for about $1,700.