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Lets talk media

scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
edited March 2014 in Honda
Do you think the media plays a role on how a car manufacturer is perceived? Do you see bias in reports/reviews? If so please post them here and tell us your story..
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Comments

  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,244
    I read about all kinds of problems with the Honda Ody transmission... recalls and extended warranty offered. Yet Consumer Reports still recommends it. I've read very little in the media about the transmission woes... so there does seem to be bias in that respect.
    2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere, 2007 Kia Optima
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The near worship of Toyota & Honda by the editors of CR is cult like. They have been an enemy of GM since Ralph Nader worked there. CR should not be allowed non profit status.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    This 1999 article, A Sell-Out's Tale, by Bryant Urstadt has some juicy tidbits.

    "One day in February I got a message from a woman named Jennifer. As messages go, it was a good one. She worked for Volvo of North America, and she wanted to fly me to Phoenix for a three-day stay in a first-class hotel, all expenses paid... It would have been a cryptic message, but I had already been on one Volvo press trip, and I knew immediately that I had just been offered a cushy free vacation. All Volvo wanted, in return, was for me to mention their car in a national publication. Or, to put it bluntly, all they wanted was my journalistic integrity"

    zpedia.org via the web archive
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    Why is it the Camry was voted car of the year when it is known Toyota released the car knowing it had a transmission issue? But its ok because its a Toyota? I think the media didn't want to tick off the 800lb Gorilla.. :shades:

    http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2006/10/toyota_accelerate.html
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Kudos, scape. This will be a good way to be a watchdog when things get fishy, and voice differing opinions about the media's portrayal of things.
  • lamboloverlambolover Member Posts: 4
    If it weren't for the media, a lot of issues we would never even learn about.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Welcome to the Forum!

    You are absolutely right. It is just sorting out the truth from the paid commercials. You should read the article Steve posted on trips the automakers provide for writers. If I was treated to an all expense paid trip and given a new car to check out, I would have a hard time giving the car a bad report.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    impress me about Consumer Reports was when reviewing a 2002 Kia Spectra they inserted a picture of a 1998-2001 era Sephia and inserted the same old jargon that I had read for many years for their "review".

    Dudes, last time I checked some of us had some gray matter still operating up there. Let's put some work in to these articles and see if someone else in America might be able to work through their own manufacturer bias.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    If I was treated to an all expense paid trip and given a new car to check out, I'd go out of my way to write a bad review of it. They need to learn their lesson the hard way. :D
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Would you write a bad review even if the car was great? It would be hard to maintain credibility if you accept these gifts. I feel the same way about CR. They accept gifts, donations etc from automakers. I find it difficult to bite the hand that feeds me.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    media can be biased but I don't think the media has the power to make a really bad car GOOD or make a really good car BAD.

    So ultimately, once a car hits the road and is in service for a while, the truth comes out regardless of what the media says about it.

    The media cannot destroy or make a car's reputation, but it can give it a good push or trip it up in the beginning.

    Blaming the media for a car's poor performance or its exceptionally good performance is just grasping at straws IMO.

    MrShiftright
    Visiting Host
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    I think a large part of sales is repeat buyers. If your car is everything you expect it to be, the media is not going to convince you it's junk, and keep you from buying another one. If you consider your car a piece of junk, the media isn't going to convince you it's great, and get you to buy another one. The media can't erase your memory. :confuse:
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Bingo elroy! Good point. "Brand equity" is the engine here, not anyone's alleged "bias". A brand that is "all tout and no clout" won't fool the American consumer for very long. Think Saturn.

    We can also think of any number of American cars that the media loved but that failed anyway (Dodge Neon comes to mind, right?). As well as cars they loved that DID succeed (PT Cruiser) as well as cars the hated and that failed (SSR?).

    I can't think of one they hated and that DID succeed in spite of very bad press, however....anyone?
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Yep. No car is perfect, so I could easily fill up a review talking about things I didn't like then throw in a little three-liner about what I did like for balance. I have no problem with biting a hand that shoudn't be feeding me.
  • smittynycsmittynyc Member Posts: 289
    "I feel the same way about CR. They accept gifts, donations etc from automakers."

    You could not be more wrong about this.

    Our National Testing and Research Center, in Yonkers, N.Y., is the largest nonprofit educational and consumer product testing center in the world. We buy all the products we use as test samples. We receive no special treatment. We accept no free samples. If a manufacturer sends us a free product, we return it.

    http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/aboutus/mission/overview/index.htm

    If you have credible evidence that suggests CR doesn't adhere to this policy, by all means, let's see it.

    I like this thread in theory, as long as all the conspiracy buffs back up their accusations with something substantial.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    They are supported by gifts and grants. From whom do they get these gifts and grants? If you have that information feel free to post it. I cannot find it in their annual reports.

    CU supports itself through the sale of our information products and services, individual contributions, and a few noncommercial grants.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    CR got a grant (actually their parent, Consumers Union) from the Ford Foundation to write a guide to environmental labels. (link)

    That's Ford as in Henry, Edsel, Bill, et.al. Guess CR loves Ford cars eh?

    You can glean some other info from a non-profit's IRS Form 990 (pdf link and it may not resolve). For example, Consumers Union paid ~3 million last year for search engine optimization services. :shades:
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    I disagree. If you are told over and over by the media car A is the winner year after year. There are those Consumers that are going to tend to believe this and not even shop other brands to even compare. Media plays a huge role in how a manufacturer is perceived. If you are told over and over the world is flat by the media for years on end.. some are going to believe it... ;)
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    I agree with your above statement. Thing is not all readers can perceive fluff from wheat so they do take information as verbatim and it can hurt some automakers attain some sales. Totally agree wid-at, man.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Journalists report the news...they can't make a bad car good I don't believe....but they can "tout" one car that is no better or worse than the others, that's true. If the Accord and the Camry are about the same quality and the press chants Accord Accord Accord and doesn't mention Camry, then yes, this will affect sales.

    But if the Accord is a stinker and the Camry is good, the "word" is soon out on the street.....

    And besides, the media loves to bad-rap a car. If the Accord were a bad car, the press would like to tear it apart. Dog bites man isn't a story, (far too common) but man bites dog is a story.

    Yes there is hype...but the media can't make something out of nothing...even Paris Hilton goes to jail eventually.

    MrShiftright
    Visiting Host
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Journalists report the news

    I would say at one time in America this was true. Tune into CNN, Fox, MSN, CBS etc and you will get a different bias from each journalist. It would be good if we got the news without bias. That does not seem to be what people want these days. Same goes for cars. Even though the difference in reliability may be very slight between two cars, by the time the writer gets done you think one car is worthless and the other should sell for twice the price. Very little truth and a lot of spin.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    this bias started when we were 16 or 17 and a classmate would get a new used rig. He or she would either say the rig was "great" or whatever, or they would say it was nothing but a POS.

    So there ya go, some may even remember this going back to your 9 or 10 year old ages during elementary school, but not for me quite yet. These interchanges of opinions really amped up when I got in junior high and high school. Then it became hog-wild, and of course one will notice it more if you truly like cars more than...ummm...sports or music, for instance. Or like cars just as much. Then you'll listen more to people's opinions on rigs.

    But for me things change when I am really interested in a product. Then I want all the reading material I can find and no, I don't think it's smart to just read one favorite source. Look at many, many sources and be prepared to be able to cut through unbridled automotive bias in order to find more of the truth you can really put to use.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    If anyone has a theory about a really great car that was destroyed by media bias, I'd like to hear about it.

    Me personally?...I think 99% of all cars get what they deserve, good and bad, without any help from the media one way or the other. It just takes time for all that to spin itself out. The mags see a new model, praise it, only to find out 6 months later it has defects; or they pan a car, only to find out people love it.

    MrShiftright
    Visiting Host
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I can think of more that were touted as great and turned out otherwise. How many MT car of the year models were absolute flops. The first Cougar for one. Many people bought into the MT hype and found out the truth after they bought.

    Then I still hold a grudge against Nader for his ignorance concerning the Corvair. I would bet there are more well kept Corvairs still running great than any Japanese cars from that era. I doubt that a 1964 Corvair would have left me stranded as many times as my 1964 Toyota Land Cruiser.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well there you go...kinda "proves" the point doesn't it...despite MT hype, the public found out otherwise. MT couldn't make a bad car good.

    As for the Corvair, typical GM story---potentially great car that was underdeveloped, then abandoned. Nader just picked the biggest target, but he could have chosen any number of defective cars from any number of manufacturers, domestic and foreign. GM played that whole thing so badly, it's incredible. They gave Nader the power he needed on a silver platter by putting private detectives on his tail.

    The media grabbed THAT one, you can be sure!

    MrShiftright
    Visiting Host
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    Ok, lets say the media can't make a a bad car good.. How about the media making a good car seem better than it really is? or making a car sound so much better than its competitors when in truth its not? Or, better yet. What about the media taking the easy road to reporting? Just satisfy the masses and report only good stuff about the car that sells the most? The media plays a huge role in what consumers will even take a look at during the buying process.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    and it is a fact that the media plays a role in shaping car sales.

    Case in point, Toyota's stock value of around $120.00/share right now. Yikes. When GM's is moving about around $32.00/share or thereabouts. Sales hype or real sales? Both.

    Toyota is the media's automotive darling, but is it kind of over-rated? About 400% over-rated, even?

    I mean, how often have you heard the press praise Toyota automotive products? And yet not talk about engine sludge issues or other blunders? How many times have you read comments like the one I'm making right now?

    I agree, it's a broken record...but it wouldn't need to be made if the media scanned and researched and recast their fishing poles for better information. Truer information.

    Less bias, more substance.These next few years are gonna be fun to follow in the automotive industry. More substance at all times, media types. Let's cut way down on the Toyota fluff and let's get down to brass tacks. There's a lot at stake...a lot of jobs... and a lot of history hanging on what eventually happens.

    It's about time to get real, isn't it?

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    What was wrong with the first Cougar? Wasn't it essentially just a Mustang with different sheet metal?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    From what I remember they had horrible resale value. I do not know the particulars. I thought they looked good. Never rode in one. Just remember a big hullabaloo over the resale.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    The problem is that for every Toyota blunder, GM had five....so the negative "noise" is proportionally greater---maybe that's all you're seeing?

    Besides all that, the American consumer is not stupid....he/she knows the buy the best car for the money...that was not the Renault LeCar, it was not the Dodge Neon, it was the Honda Accord.

    But let's say you're RIGHT....that the media favors Toyota.

    The reason for that might also have nothing to do with conspiracy. The reason might be:

    Everybody loves a winner....

    it's a form of celebrity in other words....

    MrShiftright
    Just Visiting
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    I agree with your summation.

    I will simply add that the next few months and next few years are going to be very, very interesting to watch because now Mr.Alan Mulally must make some hay from his millions for Fo-Mo-Co and not just his own pocketbook.

    GM needs to continue to win back(or start winning back)American car buyers and I see some decent new product arriving. Saturn's lineup has never looked better to me before...at least on the net. More good choices available because these carmakers need to put up or go home. It's playoff time!

    That's what I'm saying..let's keep brass-tacking for solid results. I am wondering if Toyota can stay on top and if people are gonna do more research before "family" buying or just buying what people tell them are good cars.

    Heck, I truly believe my '08 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS is a good car and Mitsubishi was talked about having to pull out of the American car market. There's a lot of Japanese pride being hammered in to those rigs. I am very, very impressed with my Lancer GTS.

    I agree Toyota is a celebrity and the media is impressed. Let's find some more info. and solid anchorages in this scene is all I'm saying. Cut through the fluff a tad more.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    and forums like these and around the internet help cut through the fluff . Here in these forums you find out about recalls, TSB's or problems that folks are having with their vehicles. The media cannot stop it from spreading like wildfire when a problem arises with a vehicle. Which is why you have to question Toyota's reliability numbers? I visit about 6 other forums and there are plenty of peeved off Toyota and Honda owners out here on the net. Which really makes me question how reliable they really are? I'm sure Toyota/Honda make good vehicles.. But are they really that much better than Ford/GM/Hyundia/Subaru/ or ???
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    I bought an Accord 16 years ago. I had the car for 12 years (140,000 miles). The car was everything I could have wanted, and more. So when I was ready to buy a new car, I had an idea what car would be a good bet (another Accord). Say I would have bought a Ford product 16 years ago. Even if I thought it had been a good car, are any of the cars made by Ford 16 years ago still being made? The media (like me) has an idea what kind of car the Accord will be, before it hits the lots. They (the media) and I have no idea how good the new Fords are, because we have no good reputation to follow through the years. When I am betting my $25,000 on a car, I want a "sure thing" not a 60% chance. The "Media" has raved about domestic cars before, only to be disappointed later, and their readers let them know about it. Once bitten, twice shy, you might say.
  • mcdawggmcdawgg Member Posts: 1,722
    There are two things that people always talk about when bashing Toyota and Honda: Engine sludge and Honda's automatic transmission problems. Problem with this is that there are so few of these "problems" that it does not really matter to most people. I THINK that is why the media has not picked up on these issues. Just my opinion, based on some real-life conversations, relationships, and experiences.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "Problem with this is that there are so few of these "problems" that it does not really matter to most people"
    http://world.honda.com/news/2004/c040630.html

    500,000 Honda vehicles are a few??

    This is just one link.. there are more to older gen Honda products with automatic transmission issues.. Google it!
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,384
    That article is three yeas old? Got something more current?

    And I say that as someone who had one of those transmissions. It wasn't the first van I had transmissions on. That was a Ford and you would have thought I was a leper the way Ford treated me. Honda immediately agreed to the replacement and rented me a vehicle while it was in the shop. Total time - 2 days. Total expense - zero.

    When I look in the vans forums I see the Honda transmission one, but I also see a transmissions issue on every van. On most other vans there are dozens of other common defects.

    Can Honda make a mistake? You bet. Do they know hpw to treat a customer under such circumstances? Enough that when I replaced the van I bought another Ody.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I call the Big Three's image problem the "Bad Dog Syndrome".

    Basically it goes like this. You buy a dog and he bites every member of your family, sometimes REALLY badly. Even an occasional mauling.

    So..... You take him to a specialist, he goes away to Dog Rehab for 2-3 years and finally the trainers/experts bring him back and say: "He's perfectly fine now. Look, here are videos of him playing frisbee, and one of our staff took him home for two weeks and he didn't bite anybody".

    But you know, the Big Three is like that dog. He's very cute and we'd all like to pet him but many of us don't trust him enough to take him back in the house with the kids.

    When Toyota says "Okay we screwed up, but it's FIXED!", for some reason I believe that.

    When the Big Three says the exact same thing, I scrunch up my face and go...."yeah, rigggghhhhttttt....."

    Terrible, isn't it?

    MrShiftright
    Visiting Host
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Big three, Bad dog, great analogy. I love it LOL. :D
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Honda Accords have had a few problems with head unit lights going out. Honda has said they will cover the head units "out of warranty". My head unit has not gone out, but it's nice to know that even if it does, it will not cost me anything to get a replacement. Would Ford do this? I think not. How does Honda retain so many repeat customers? By treating them right. ;) You can never please all the people, all the time, but at least Honda tries.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Value is something the public determines based on perception. The public decides Toyota's stock is worth a lot more than GM. If they didn't, the price would drop.

    The same holds true for cars.

    If Toyota's weren't worth a premium over their competitors, people wouldn't pay the premium. We may have different values though, which is why we don't all drive Camrys.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I would say at one time in America this was true. Tune into CNN, Fox, MSN, CBS etc and you will get a different bias from each journalist. It would be good if we got the news without bias. That does not seem to be what people want these days.

    I concur. People will hear what they want to hear. Some people think Consumer Reports is garbage until it reports something they agree with, then they change their minds.

    Fickle Public!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    But that only works to a point....I doubt whether Fox or NPR or 60 Minutes could have broadcast "Yugos and Fiats are great cars!" and get more than a smattering of believers out of that.

    So it's "perception" but there's also reality, since people get to "test" their perception about a car, whereas they don't often get to "test" their perceptions about global warming or evolution or whether Politician X really is taking bribes or what is really happening in Mongolia.

    I think it's harder to sway public opinion about things they have a reasonable chance of testing themselves.

    This is why I believe that the Big Three is actually suffering from a consumer boycott, not a media conspiracy.

    MrShiftright
    Visiting Host
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    You are correct sir! We are on the same page I believe.

    Someone once questioned my purchase of my car (a Honda Accord). I explained that a big reason I bought my car because of the interior quality. The person questioning said "it is all perception."

    If we can't "perceive" quality, what can we "do" to it to determine it exists in the produce we buy?

    To a point, perception IS reality.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I guess you could say that perception is the first step in forming reality. One's initial "perception" may turn out to be true or false, once one is in the driver's seat for a few months.

    It's possible that American and foreign cars start out with similar "perceptions" but from then on, it might diverge into satisfaction and for some, disappointment.

    So someone might legitimately say "Well, this Chevrolet has an interior just as nice as that Accord" and that perception would be correct...then later, it may be that the reality is that the nice interior means nothing if the car doesn't run right....so the "total" reality is a lot different than the "initial perception".

    This is one reason why I like longterm ownership reports rather than those "initial quality" surveys.

    People's perceptions are often incorrect.

    MrShiftright
    Visiting Host
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Fair enough, but often times, it is only the intitial impression/perception from a test drive that people find fault with/argue with on these forums, which isn't really fair when people have different ideas of "good."

    *steps off soapbox and closes subject.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    The media should never be the decision maker for a car shopper, IMO. But a car reviewer, who has tested all of the sedans you are considering back-to-back can give you a lot of helpful hints on which car will most likely be what you are looking for. Things like equipment levels, safety ratings, reliability ratings, and high and low points of each model, give you an idea of what to look for during the test drive. Most test drives are less than 10 miles, so there is only so much you can determine from them. Personal experience is usually a big factor, with other factors added in, like word of mouth (friend, relatives, co-workers etc.) dealer location and service department. The more you know about a car, before the test drive, the better. I usually know more about the car I'm test driving than the salesperson does. :D
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    I guess, lets not talk media.. Time to close up shop here?? :blush:
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Nah, people just forget about new forums, especially when not enough people have visited it to "track" the discussion yet. I started the Midsize Pickups discussion, and it took awhile to get moving.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    Go to MSN and check out the headline about Ford winning JD poweres awards and besting Toyota. Read this article and it basically shoots Ford down and pumps up Toyota.. :mad:
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I read it on my lunch hour yesterday, at least I think it is the same one. It said what you already have though, so I'm confused at your response from it.

    It basically states that the Domestics have come a long way, and now have to re-earn the trust of the people they let down in previous years. Their image is bruised, like Hyundai's was.
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