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BMW 3-Series - AWD or RWD?

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Comments

  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    What?!?!

    Actually, I can't think of a single scenario - wet or dry, straight or twisty - where my M3 could keep up with your 335.

    Your car is faster, more economical, roomier, more comfortable, more practical, safer, more reliable, more refined, and easier to drive. I wouldn't trade in a million years :P
  • cbanctcbanct Member Posts: 17
    Just some food for thought. Road and Track in a comparison from March, 2006 at this link
    http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=3280&page_number- =10#reardrive

    raced an Infiniti G35 and G35x( AWD version) on the same track in wet and dry conditions. The AWD car was quicker around the track in the wet and dry. It would not surprise me if the same thing would occur if the 335i and 335xi were compared.

    BMW has released a performance suspension lowering package for the new 3 series sedan which I believe can be used on a 335xi.

    cbanct
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "BMW has released a performance suspension lowering package for the new 3 series sedan which I believe can be used on a 335xi."

    Nope, all "xi" models have the softest and highest riding suspension of any of the 3-Series and 5-Series models and there are no "options" available that will change that fact.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    A hole shot is simply the better reaction time. The "hole" is the starting line.

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Ship, I did find a shop in Miami, FL that had a mod that works for xi suspension. What do you think?

    http://activeautowerke.com/suspension/KW-suspension/main.php#E92335i

    Regards,
    OW
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Lots of money for who knows what real world improvements. That said, if someone wants the bling factor of a low ride and 22" chrome spinners, it's a sure bet. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Personally, I wouldn't mod a car used predominantly for the street anyway, if I owned or leased. Those days are long gone for me but there is a child deep down in everyone!

    IOW, "bling" doesn't do it for me. I prefer the cloaking factor and the element of surprise!

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I am considering the 135 vs. the 335 in 2008. The 1'er looks pretty decent. Hmm...no AWD...

    image

    Regards,
    OW
  • unlimitedjoeunlimitedjoe Member Posts: 79
    definition to hole shot & definition of SLING SHOT!!!!!!!!!!333i does hole shots!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!335xi does sling shots!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!again gentleman safe & fun and for me sling shot driving!!!!
  • unlimitedjoeunlimitedjoe Member Posts: 79
    in case xeye does not no how too; 1)must have manuel transmission. 2)with left foot push in clutch. 3)with right foot press gas till rpm needle gets to red line 4) then release clutch to get SLING SHOT effect!P.S. no trany drops allowed!wow feel like a kid again just writting this. gentleman again SAFE & FUN SLING SHOT DRIVING!
  • unlimitedjoeunlimitedjoe Member Posts: 79
    when doing a 335i hole shot you lose 1) traction 2)rubber 3)make lots of smoke$$$$$$$$ when doing a sling shot you gain 1)traction 2)get to a 1/4 mi. quicker 3)save lots of rubber 4)no white smoke, you no the one camaro boys like! having to much fun with xeye's question,hey xeye thanks for making my night fun! again safe & fun driving gentleman!!!
  • unlimitedjoeunlimitedjoe Member Posts: 79
    excuse but you mean to tell me with your lower (not even a total inch lower) and slightly and i mean slightly stiffer sport suspension your car is going to do better where? i'll tell you where i feel where NO WHERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!ONCE AGAIN FUN & SAFE DRIVING SHIPO ;)
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    People have different opinions than you. That's cool, they are as entitled to their points of view as you are. No need to insist they are wrong just because you have different preferences.

    It would be good if you would look around and get an idea of how we discuss things here. We really aren't into SHOUTING and taunting and so forth. We also try to write posts in a manner that's easy for others to read.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    excuse but you mean to tell me with your lower (not even a total inch lower) and slightly and i mean slightly stiffer sport suspension

    If you can't tell the difference between the handling of the lower, stiffer, sport suspensioned 335i and the 335ix, perhaps you should save a little money and buy a Camry? I have absolutely no issue with those that would prefer the AWD foul weather versitility of the "ix" over the more nimble, RWD sport packaged "i". But to suggest there is no difference is absurd and leads me to believe you haven't really test driven either. Around the block doesn't count.

    Reminds me of the off handed compliment my wife paid me once. That I looked like a young Robert Redford from a distance. A distance of about 2 miles. Maybe you need to take a "closer" look at these cars. And if you still can't tell the difference, I am sure there is a Toyota dealer anxious to talk to you.

    P.S. Thanks, Pat, for forcing me to bite my tongue with my previous (removed) post. Hopefully the discussion will return to a higher level of maturity and intellect.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    Joe, I agree that your 335xi would be the better choice for drag racing on a rain-soaked abandoned airstrip or fetching groceries during a blizzard, but how exactly does your 335xi perform better than a 335i when accelerating on dry pavement? When not accelerating? When braking?

    A few of us have already explained with technical facts why the 335xi performs worse than the 335i. Would you care to explain with facts why we're wrong?
  • getzgetz Member Posts: 24
    The only thing I agree with is that the 335xi should out accelerate the 335i from a standstill, regardless of pavement conditions. You are much less likely to lose power in the form of broken traction, so probably it would be the superior stop light drag racer. The 535xi tested by C&D posted 0-60 in 5.4 secs and 1/4 mi in 14.0 secs at 102 mph. Pretty impressive numbers for a 4042 lb sedan. The 335xi with a curb weight of 3800 lbs should be pretty significantly quicker.
    -Getz
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    I agree that the AWD traction advantage could permit a more aggressive launch technique (slipping the clutch from 7000 RPM), which could compensate for the added curb weight - and eventually destroy the clutch.

    Are there really people out there drag racing against slammed Honda Civics with their $45,000 BMW's?
  • unlimitedjoeunlimitedjoe Member Posts: 79
    both cars w/sport pkg,i feel the difference is that the xi suspension is a bit softer(not a bad thing for the real world driving)but in normal drivng conditions, the awd has a 40% of power distribution to the front & 60% to the rear, preserving bmws traditional rwd bias. however, in more chalenging conditions, the flow of torque can be varied all the way from 100:0 or 0:100 front to rear. if a rigid connection is required, the system can lock the front & rear axles, providing awd w/ 50/50 distribution. as an xi owner this makes me happy. also i beleive bmw handling is, the best in the business! and thats another reason i favor the awd advatage :D
  • unlimitedjoeunlimitedjoe Member Posts: 79
    hey hows it going? dont wont to bother you but if you no some of the post numbers ill go back and review, really dont feel like looking threw them all. again if its a bother dont bother. safe & fun driving gentleman :confuse:
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,349
    Well, if the tii deal falls through I might just buy a new 3er sedan after all...

    image

    I wonder if ///M cars will retain the "archaic" oil dipstick?

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    "I believe the question was which would accelerate more aggressively from a stop on dry pavement."

    Actually, it wasn't a question, it was a statement. Post #115:

    "excuse but you mean to tell me with your lower (not even a total inch lower) and slightly and i mean slightly stiffer sport suspension your car is going to do better where? i'll tell you where i feel where NO WHERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

    "By adding my two cents, does that mean that I am drag racing against slammed civics?"

    When did I accuse you, or anyone else, of drag racing anything? You and I were both following up on my original reply to the above quote that the 335xi outperforms the 335i EVERYWHERE. The drag-racing statement I made meant that it doesn't make sense to quibble about a 10th of a second here or there because NOBODY is out there drag racing their 335's for pink slips - that BMW owners are more mature than that. You need to re-read my post, and this time pay a little attention to context before jumping to a false conclusion, getting defensive, and speaking out of the wrong hole.

    Your misguided attempt to teach me some kind of lesson by trying to belittle me was out of line sir.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    Very nice!

    IMO, the M3 sedan would be the PERFECT sedan if it had a dipstick and the tailights from the Coupe. Oh yeah, almost forgot - it would also have to weigh 400 lbs less :blush:
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    Joe, I'm not inclined to read all of the prior posts and quote comments for you.

    In quickly reviewing this thread though, the general consensus seems to be that BMW X-Drive is primarily an inclement weather system, and not strictly intended as a dry-pavement performance enhancer.

    That said, there have been good comments that under certain dry-pavement conditions, the 335xi could outperform the 335i. One such instance that was mentioned a few times is during a "drop clutch" launch, where the AWD system would prevent wheelspin by redistributing torque to the front wheels instead of creating tire smoke. Of course, launching a car in this manner is very destructive to the driveline, and not too many owners would be inclined to abuse their expensive BMW's in this manner.

    Several comments have been made about the disadvantages of AWD - namely added curb weight, poorer weight distribution, higher center of gravity, softer suspension, greater driveline losses, higher coefficient of drag, and poorer fuel economy. These are the facts that support the argument that AWD is only an advantage when accelerating on slick roads. As of yet, I have only seen one fact-based argument that supports better dry-surface acceleration (the aforementioned clutch-drop launch).

    I think that AWD is becoming increasingly popular because it makes a car easier to drive. The automatic transfer of torque away from slipping wheels masks and/or corrects driver errors. For this reason, many drivers find it reassuring and confidence inspiring - more fun.

    To me, AWD is like the automatic transmission. You can argue (correctly) that the modern auto transmission is "superior" to the manual transmission, and you'd be right. However, don't we own BMW's because they are more fun to drive? It's fun to row your own gears, to heel and toe downshift as you brake for a corner, to settle the car at turn-in and then tighten your line with throttle towards the apex, hit the apex and slowly unwind the wheel as you accelerate out of the corner, then time the upshift to coincide with the steering wheel being straight. where's the fun or challenge with a slushbox there? RWD is the same way - the joy of playing with the car by shifting the weight from front to rear with throttle, maybe even hanging the tail out a little when you feel like it (naughty, naughty!). It's a ballet performed with your hands, feet, and eyes - and it's a joy in a BMW. But not nearly as joyful in an X-Drive equipped BMW.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Excellent. That's the EXACT comparison.

    Regards,
    OW
  • getzgetz Member Posts: 24
    Actually it was a question (post 123, notice the question marks):
    "Joe, I agree that your 335xi would be the better choice for drag racing on a rain-soaked abandoned airstrip or fetching groceries during a blizzard, but how exactly does your 335xi perform better than a 335i when accelerating on dry pavement? When not accelerating? When braking?"

    I apologize for jumping to conclusions, however ending your reply with a comparison of drag racing slammed civics is a tad un-civil as well. Perhaps had you voiced your feelings regarding BMW drivers enmasse not wishing to inflict trauma to their drive trains, rather then attempting to conjure an image of a clutch popping [non-permissible content removed] facing a franken-honda, I would not have drawn such an (apparently unfounded) conclusion. As far as quibbling over tenths of seconds, that is whats fun about tracking your BMW. As you so eloquently voiced, the whole point of throttle modulating a car through a difficult bend is to most efficiently navigate the obstacle, and to do it a rate faster than the "other guy". All of the aforementioned techniques in your post can be done in an all-wheel drive car as well. Although the xi sits higher, and gains some lbs., it wasn't designed as a track car. Take a truly dedicated AWD sports car (ie 911 TT) and throw it through some S-curves, and then try and tell me it wasn't fun because you detected slightly to much grip in the front, and would of preferred a tad more oversteer. Bah.
    -Getz
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I can only tell you the fun factor in the 2006 330xi for non-track driving is fantastic. Different feel but fun just the same.

    IOW, the AWD weight and steering feel does not detract from having fun with the xi, even with the slush-box.

    I know others will say I do not know the meaning of true driving fun based on this, so to each his own. There are other colors in the spectrum.

    Regards,
    OW
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Rather than asking others to do your research for you, why not try the Search This Discussion feature on the gray page bar?
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    When you said in post #124, "the 335xi should out accelerate the 335i from a standstill, regardless of pavement conditions."

    I agreed with you in Post #125, with the caveat that from a standstill, I believe the 335xi would only beat the 335i if the driver used a high RPM drop-clutch technique, which I pointed out is abusive to the car. To illustrate just how unrealistic I thought this would be, I conjured up the highly implausible image of a BMW 335 street racing with a slammed Honda Civic.

    How you find this illustration "uncivil" and how you inferred that I was personally insulting you is beyond my comprehension. Your conclusion was not "apparently unfounded," it was completely out of thin air. However, if there is in fact something I'm missing here and I did in fact come off as abusive, then know that it was not intentional and I apologize.

    As far as quibbling over 10ths of seconds, I disagree. It's never about the clock for me. In fact, the track events I participate in forbid timing devices of any kind, and personally, I have never had a need or desire for them.

    For me, the fun of tracking is taking on the challenge of learning and mastering the individual portions of a racetrack by experimenting with and tweaking my driving technique through repetition. Fun is learning how to do something on the white board or in a book, and then going on the track and gradually mastering the skill until you nail it - and you know you are a better driver than you were 4 hours ago. Fun is having the courage to take turn eight 2 MPH faster than you did on the last lap and trust that you and the car are capable of doing it. And after you succeed, add another 2 MPH!

    Yes, you can do it in an AWD car. You can do it with DSC engaged. You can do it with a slushbox. But why would you want to? It's just not as challenging or rewarding as doing it with an unassisted, manual gearbox, RWD car with a proper sport-tuned suspension.

    As for the 911TT - a poseur car if ever there was one! I can somewhat understand the BMW as an all-weather, family hauling, grocery getting, fun-to-drive sedan. But to pay over $100K for such a stunning, yet docile rocket? Through the magic of AWD technology, Porsche has successfully removed all of the 911 DNA from the 911. Whenever I see a TT, all I can say is, "you coulda had a GT3."
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,349
    To me, AWD is like the automatic transmission. You can argue (correctly) that the modern auto transmission is "superior" to the manual transmission, and you'd be right. However, don't we own BMW's because they are more fun to drive? It's fun to row your own gears, to heel and toe downshift as you brake for a corner, to settle the car at turn-in and then tighten your line with throttle towards the apex, hit the apex and slowly unwind the wheel as you accelerate out of the corner, then time the upshift to coincide with the steering wheel being straight. where's the fun or challenge with a slushbox there? RWD is the same way - the joy of playing with the car by shifting the weight from front to rear with throttle, maybe even hanging the tail out a little when you feel like it (naughty, naughty!). It's a ballet performed with your hands, feet, and eyes - and it's a joy in a BMW. But not nearly as joyful in an X-Drive equipped BMW.

    Couldn't have said it better myself!

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,349
    Yes, you can do it in an AWD car. You can do it with DSC engaged. You can do it with a slushbox. But why would you want to? It's just not as challenging or rewarding as doing it with an unassisted, manual gearbox, RWD car with a proper sport-tuned suspension.

    Don't I know it! I drove my Alpina B7 press loaner on Motorsport Ranch's 1.7 mile course during the instructor sessions at the O'fest drivers school. It was a lot of fun keeping up with the M3s and 911s on the straights and sweepers, but the automatic and DSC shut the fun down in the tighter corners- the slushbox by up and down shifting on its own even when in manual mode, the DSC by refusing to allow any power oversteer. As a matter of fact, one of my students commented that the DSC light blinked almost constantly all the way around the track. I was sorely tempted to drill down through the iDrive menus and at least partially disable the DSC, but I like to work up to a car's limits gradually- and a 30 minute track session just doesn't lend itself to that type of driving. And in this case I was sharing the track with a lot of hot machinery, including a couple of ex-PTG E36 and E46 race cars. I also needed to be able to drive the car 860 miles back home and I didn't want to return it with all four Pilot Sports showing their wear bars- the RF tire's Michelin man had a flat top as it was... :surprise:

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    "I drove my Alpina B7 press loaner on Motorsport Ranch's 1.7 mile course..."

    I would feel privileged if you would tell me how rich the leather smelled, you lucky son of a... :cry:
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    You see, you can have fun with a slush box...even being in a car like that has to be SOME degree of fun! :)

    Regards,
    OW
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    Take a truly dedicated AWD sports car (ie 911 TT) and throw it through some S-curves, and then try and tell me it wasn't fun because you detected slightly to much grip in the front, and would of preferred a tad more oversteer. Bah.

    Bah back. I extensively test drove the 2006 911 C4S when I was considering selling my 2005 C2S to swap colors. The C4S is slower off the line and less nimble through the curves on dry pavement. And that's with the benefit of the same PASM equiped suspension as on the C2S, not a dumbed down one as is the case with sport packaged equiped 335ix vs. 335i's. I am sure wet/snow handling is better at the limits, but that is not the metric by which I judge sports cars, or even sports sedans.

    You won't hear me bad mouthing the 911TT. But to call it a truly dedicated AWD sports car is astretch. The "truly dedicated" award in the 911 line goes to the RWD GT3 and the ultimate performance goes to the RWD GT2.
  • unlimitedjoeunlimitedjoe Member Posts: 79
    very well said, my hats off to you. but as a fedlawman in a car chase which would you rather be in, :shades: on a chase to protect you, and keep up with? what im trying to say is both cars are great & that the rwd cannot, even on dry road conditions run away from the awd, but if the roles were reversed especially on rain or sanded down roads after a snow fall, the bad guy has a good chance of getting away.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    How about an underwater race? We could fit snorkels to the air intakes.

    Or maybe a Himalayan hill climb featuring blind-folded Tibetan Monk drivers?

    I know - a cross-country race on railroad tracks featuring "Hy-Rail" modified cars.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    By the way Joe, to avoid any possible misunderstandings, the above post is in no way implying that you, or any other BMW owner, would ever actually engage in any these activities. :blush:
  • unlimitedjoeunlimitedjoe Member Posts: 79
    thats to funny! take care :P
  • getzgetz Member Posts: 24
    Poseur car....lol. That car generally gets labeled as such not because of its prowess on/off a track, but because a large percentage of those driving bought for its badge (and is also a favored comment by those who can't afford the price of admission). That car is stunning, and will out perform almost anything compared to it. I also drove the C4S/C2S extensively, and felt as if the C4 was faster from a stand still, and had much less tendency to have its rear break away. I actually thought the Cayman S was more intriguing than either of those bloated, overpriced offerings. Although my track car is a RWD setup, its hard for me to bash awd cars, as the new generation of vehicles, including the R8, 911 TT, Nissan Skyline, etc. have remarkable ability to shift torque from wheel to wheel as needed, and have much more neutral driving characteristics of old. If I am lapping the Nordschleife, put me in an AWD supercar any day of the week, as I would prefer not to end up crumpled into a twisted mass of steel and bone. I understand how to drive aggressively, but I realize, that no matter what skill I attain, I will always be safer and faster in an awd drive car.
  • unlimitedjoeunlimitedjoe Member Posts: 79
    i also own a rwd car, its a 2004 z06 that i love taking to the track & basicly only the track. now when you stated on post #142(dumbed down 335xi sport pkg)i dont believe you understand the sport pkg. or how the awd system works, to do that just go to post #127. the sport pkgs. are very similar with a slight advantage going to the rwd, but i feel the advantage of the awd makes up for that. that said i feel you should again go test drive the awd(keep in mind your not going against your porche)and if you still feel it to be superior then so be it. but for me ill stick with the awd, that will be driven daily on a 3 mi. winding & sometimes wet,snowy and even sandy road to the rail road station. :shades:
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Agreed, getz.

    There is a reason, IMHO, why AWD is appearing in higher performance vehicles at a marked rate, that has much to do with better performance.

    Yes, the weight and feel are different so we can say the performance is different.

    I propose there is a limit to the power that can be applied to 2 wheels and at that limit, utilizing the other 2 wheels to apply power will no doubt favor the laws of physics. Again, IMHO, the future favors the additional technology. Consider six or eight wheels with 100 hp light weight electric motors driving each wheel with a total combined weight of less than a BMW six-banger. Computer controlled to keep stability at all corners. Not fun? Who can tell?

    Satisfaction is in the eye and "behind" of the beholder!

    What I can see is that AWD is not a panacea but it ain't goin' away, either.

    It is said AWD was added to the 911 to help stabilize the power in the earlier model. That it continues to be offered and is at a more increasing level of demand is a testament to a changing buyer's preference.

    I think the 335xi is a great sedan that you can still have fun in. Not the same as the 335i but it's still there.

    Regards,
    OW
  • unlimitedjoeunlimitedjoe Member Posts: 79
    nicely said, but just would like to add to the end of your statment. not the same as the 335i but its still there & beyond with certain road elements.
  • getzgetz Member Posts: 24
    I think AWD is a natural evolution of automobile technology, and just like advances in any field, there is always resistance. Preferences regarding driving dynamics, feel, as well as a history steeped in tradition all combine to make convincing arguments about staying with a recipe that "aint broke". I remember posting on a edmunds 3-er forum a number of years back, stating that I would love to see a turbo-charged bmw inline 6. That post was met with so much acidity that it was laughible, and I recall one member stating that the day he saw a forced induction fed bmw, would be the day he stopped buying the brand. Well, I must say, the new twin turbo inline 6 is nothing but joy, and a beautiful example of technological progression. All the arguments against forced induction have been met, and overcome, providing a beautiful combination of terrific low end grunt, a nice top end, and seamless acceleration with no hit of turbo lag. I wonder if the gentleman that was so adamant that a turbo bmw would be a horrific injsutice to bmws' tradition of naturally aspirated engines would still feel the same today?
    Regarding AWD, vehicles are getting closer and closer to delivering handling dynamics similar to their RWD counterparts, and it's only a matter of time before we reach the point where the benefits far outweigh the downside of handling feel. Just like the progressions of clutchless manuals....which you can still operate identically to a traditional manual, yet still keep two hands on the wheel, there is a very positive benefit to the technology, not only regarding performance, but safety as well.
    I still think the ultimate performance combination lies in the hybrid concept. Having almost unlimited torque off throttle using an electric motor, with a rev happy gasoline engine waiting to flex its top end muscle seems like a wicked combination, however, it will take years to perfect. And will also be met with a zealot like hatred from traditionalists. Similar arguments can be met for placing rail injection diesels in sports cars....which has also met a large amount of resistance from diehards. I'm of the mindset that if it makes it safer, faster, easier to drive, then its probably a good thing.
    -Getz

    P.S.
    I'm open to an 8 wheel, individual motor per wheel, Frank Herbert type hybrid if it is better than the current set up, just as long as it has an ipod adapter.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    One point about X-Drive that hasn't come up yet (and I'm surprised it hasn't, because it's well known on the SUV side of the house) is the fact that X-Drive is strictly a front-to-back torque transferring system.

    Imagine you are negotiating a big, left hand sweeper and approaching the friction limits of the (right side) tires. As you continue into the corner, the right front wheel has a higher slip angle than the right rear, and will break traction first (understeer). In the blink of an eye, X-Drive transfers torque away from the front axle and sends it to the rear axle. Now as you continue through the corner with more rear-biased torque (neutral), both right side tires (front and rear) start to slide at the same rate. What does X-Drive do here? Nothing - it's incapable of transferring torque away from the slipping right side and over to the gripping left side. Instead, DSC will apply the brakes and/or reduce the throttle until the car slows enough to stop sliding. And since there is more curb weight, more front axle biased mass, and a higher/softer suspension, lateral weight transfer is more exaggerated. This translates into lower overall lateral grip, and earlier DSC intervention.

    Same phenomenon in quick transitions such as the slalom or a tight S turn. Turn one way and you place a greater load over the 'outside' side of the car, while unloading the 'inside' side of the car. Then when you are abeam the cone and turn the other way, you have greater weight transfer to the other side of the car (due to more suspension travel and greater mass), thus resulting in a larger magnification of lateral forces acting on the new 'outside' side of the car, and a greater lifting of the 'inside' side. As you progress through the slalom, the side-to-side transfer of weight shift magnifies with each repetition - an effect that X-Drive cannot compensate for. What's the solution? You slow down.

    Bottom line? All else being equal, the 335xi can not generate as much lateral grip as the 335i. Period.

    Caveat: Since of course it will come up - The fact is, for most (read: unskilled) drivers, the 335xi will probably be just as fast, or faster than the 335i in these situations simply because the driver is incapable of identifying the onset of understeer and feathering the throttle to shift weight rearward. It's all theoretical exactly when understeer and torque transfer will happen in a corner, but it's undeniable that the 335xi will 'feel' more neutral to the untrained driver because they may never detect the onset of understeer.
  • unlimitedjoeunlimitedjoe Member Posts: 79
    thank god i didnt sell the z06!
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    OK, now what if you "turn off" DSC/TC? I assume the slip angle at the limit in the turns allows the car to slide out to the side of the car with the load since the driver identifies the he is loosing grip at the limit and can then feather the throttle and instead control both front and back axles through each turn at greater speed. If overdone the car slides off the road side ways instead of rotating from sever over steer and "spinning" off the road.

    Done correctly, the car slides through each turn under more control and speed than the RWD... and pulls out of the turns a bit quicker with all 4 wheels providing power on.

    Just my interpretation.

    Regards,
    OW
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,349
    I would feel privileged if you would tell me how rich the leather smelled, you lucky son of a...

    Actually, I was surprised that the leather didn't have the cool Alpina stitching- although the steering wheel did- go figure. Anyway, here are a few pictures from my CarSpace album...

    The B7 and a real M3(Also note my exclusive painter's tape car number):
    image

    Another angle:
    image

    With a TC Kline Carbon Coupe:
    image

    At the Concours:
    image

    What 500 bhp of supercharged V8 looks like:
    image

    How to keep a final drive REALLY cool:
    image

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Uh-oh, I see DTM plates. In New Jersey that's a dead give away that the car is owned by the manufacturer. Having worked for a few years in the mid 1990s for MB-USA, I couldn't turn around without seen several DTMs. Then after I left MB, my wife and I built a house on Glen Road in Woodcliff Lake, and if you are familiar with the area you'll know that BMW-USA is located at the corner of Chestnut Ridge Road and Glen Road, right down the street from our house. Yup, you guessed it, more DTM plates. Yeesh! ;)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,349
    I compared the plates and discovered that this was the same B7 that Car and Driver tested. I seriously doubt that I beat on it as hard as they did- although I did discover that the Service Information System thinks that three 30 minute track sessions are equivalent to 900 miles of normal driving- at least with regards to oil life...:P

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    This was the year I should have gone to O'Fest, and I didn't. Looks like you had a great time! I assume you're writing a story about O-Fest?

    That's a very nice looking Warsteiner E30 M3 replica (I assume it's a replica). It doesn't look like MJ Calabrese's car, do you know anything about it?

    I remember seeing the same TC Kline Carbon Coupe at TechFest. My car was on display in the hotel - parked 5 cars away.

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  • spiritintheskyspiritinthesky Member Posts: 207
    That car is stunning, and will out perform almost anything compared to it. I also drove the C4S/C2S extensively, and felt as if the C4 was faster from a stand still.... Although my track car is a RWD setup, its hard for me to bash awd cars,.... and have much more neutral driving characteristics of old. If I am lapping the Nordschleife, put me in an AWD supercar any day of the week,

    As an owner of a 2007 911TT, I sincerely appreciate your compliments and enthusiasm for the car. For the majority of prospective buyers out there, it is indeed the "ultimate" 911. I have absolutely no purchase regrets. However, in looking for the best of all worlds - power, nimbleness and handling, I have placed myself second in line (behind the owner of the dealership) to get a GT2, which is essentially everything the 911 TT is, without the weight and bulk of AWD.

    In the case of the GT2 vs. 911TT, my preference for RWD over AWD is almost strictly handling based. The lighter weight and different mechanical setups makes RWD my strong preference, all other things being equal.

    However, in the C2S vs. C4S, both of which I seriously considered and extensively test drove before getting the TT, I don't understand how you could have concluded that the "4" was quicker off the line than the "2". There is nearly a 5% additional drivetrain loss of power in the 4, as has been documented in dyno tests. And the added weight of AWD extracts a noticably bigger penalty with "only" 295 ft-lbs of torque, compared to the TT's 500. I am quite certain that a 325 hp base C2 will give a 355hp C4S serious competition "off the line". The C2S is, in reality, considerably quicker, in addition to being nimbler. These facts are not reflected in Porsche's published performance data. Both the C2S and C4S are listed at 4.6 seconds 0-60. However, in Porsche's convenient way of conservative marketing, the C2S has been road tested as quick as 3.9 seconds and is damn near as quick as my friend's 996TT. The C4S, while still very competent, is simply not in that league, "off the line". The advantage of the "4", at least in the vastly improved 997 model, is strictly in poor traction (rain, snow, gravel) conditions.

    As far as Nordschleife or Nurburgring, does it surprise you that the RWD 997 GT2 has surpassed the $450k V10 AWD Carrera GT in lap times? Or that the 415 hp RWD GT3 easily surpassed the 480hp AWD Turbo? Had it not been for the introduction of the GT2, I was seriously considering getting a GT3 after having the opportunity to drive that beauty. The handling is exquisite and I hate to admit how bulky my TT felt by comparison after an hour in a GT3. With the PASM set on normal mode, it didn't even rattle my fillings loose, like the 996 GT3 did a few years ago.

    Again, I appreciate your compliments and enthusiasm for the 911TT, and it is an exceptional car. But, frankly, it deserves much of the accolades heaped on it in spite of being a heavier AWD setup, rather than because of it.

    The "truly dedicated" award in the 911 line goes to the RWD GT3 and the ultimate performance goes to the RWD GT2.

    From your lips to my wallet.

    P.S. I apologize for the lengthy digression into the world of the 911, when the forum is supposed to be about the 335i vs. 335ix. I have only ever driven my nephew's 335i (sport package). I cannot comment upon the 335ix, other than to say, the laws of physics still apply. Weight is weight, and drive train efficiency is always reduced when you add more moving parts and connections to the system. Suspension and wheel/tire differences also need to be considered. That said, if someone prefers the road surface versitility of AWD over the performance and handling of RWD in a sport sedan, so be it. Either way, these are two very impressive cars.
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