BMW 3-Series - AWD or RWD?

circlew · November 2007

Agreed. A 335I SP will definately out maneuver the 335xi but vs a standard 335i suspension. The story is different IMHO and based on driving 335i vs. 330xi. The suspension is set better in the XI and makes a difference. The 335i was real loose in the rain also. TC/DSC was on all over the place with AS tires. OTOH, it's hard to break loose the xi on the same wet roads, same day and temperature. Just my experience.

Again, I respect all highly trained and experienced voices in this forum.

Regards,
OW

unlimitedjoe · November 2007

hello roadburner, maybe we no each other?

i live & drive on the east coast, (that includes the track) so i'm wondering if, your from the east?

if you are, i'm the guy thats there with his son, who drives a blue R32 & good looking, and i'm the guy who drives a silver Z06 a not so good looking.(son gets looks from the wife)

what i'm getting at is this, if you think you will trounce me or my son, who's in a slower R32,(me in a xi) i hope your driving skills are better then ours.

even if so, trust me there will be no trouncing, xi & i not that big of a difference, either way.

and no, i did not read anything else from R&t, like i said got from another post.

so now i cant wait for 2 things in my life,

1) getting xi to the track.

2) getting tapped on the shoulder at the track, and someone saying i'm roadburner.

safe & fun driving.

xeye · November 2007

Hi,

Just to be clear, I'm not replying directly to Joe as I find him(?) somewhat antagonistic, but rather to the forum.

I've sat out a couple of weeks to re-think my perspective, and I've come to the following conclusions.

I drive the 335xi and I believe that it drives very well. It's slightly sluggish in the turns, but that may well be my driving acumen. Horsepower is surely not the issue, but snappy response isn't what I'd expect. I'm coming out of a 4Runner that handled like, well, a truck. I've gone from a machete to a scalpel and it may take a little bit to adjust. Still, I drove a Miata for 6 years in the hills of California and I definitely find that the 335, regardless of drive train, has put on a little weight and is not as light on it's wheels as I'd have expected. I want turn-in, right now.

To avoid being long-winded, the conversation from my patient perspective, centers around 2 issues: How does the car handle at the track, and how happy will I be, like the majority of us, driving the car every day. Forget what your stock adviser made for you last week (the stock market has dropped 800 points in 4 days).

When it comes to it, on the East coast, I don't care if you can go into a 130 mph 4-wheel drift on a cloverleaf on the Autobahn, I just want to make it up the hill in snowy conditions (like expected this weekend) and have a ton of fun in the summer.

Does anyone understand this?

Don't tell me about your Porsches, etc. 99% of us have to get to work each day to feed ourselves.

Bottom line, and if you don't live in the Northeast (or east of Ontario, Canada) or don't drive a BMW, don't bother responding;

What BMW car do you drive, day in & day out, that gives you a thrill AND gets you where you need to be?

circlew · November 2007

Why, a 330xi don't you know. Can't get it loose in the wet and it has ultra tebacity in the turns. It's simply the best car I've experienced to date on a long-term basis.

Regards,
OW

roadburner · November 2007

What BMW car do you drive, day in & day out, that gives you a thrill AND gets you where you need to be?

As you've probably read, I bought a Mazdaspeed3 as my daily commuter while I wait to see if BMW NA will import a version of the 1er for serious enthusiasts. That said, I still came very close to buying another BMW for my work sled. Based on my search, If I was in your position I would buy one of the following Bimmers and just accept the fact that I would need to buy a set of dedicated winter tires and wheels to run from November to March:

1. E46 330i ZHP- A really outstanding car. A bit unique and very tossable by modern 3er standards.
2. E46 M3- Not as much fun as its E30 ancestor, but still a magnificent car. If the CPO car I looked at had been fitted with Xenons it would be in my garage now. The optional SMG transmission isn't awful, and it works well on the track- though I still prefer the manual. Maintenance costs will be a bit higher as you need to run the pricey Castrol 10W-60 synthetic and the 24 valves need to have their clearances checked at every Inspection II. Find a Competition Package car and you'll likely want to keep it forever.
3. E39 530i Sport(manual only)- I think that these cars feel more nimble than the E90 sedans. Lots of room and very reliable.
4. E36 M3- This is another car I came close to buying. A LOT of fun for a reasonable price. The downside is that these cars are getting a bit long in the tooth and many have been flogged repeatedly. The car I was looking at had 40K on the clock and was owned by a BMW Master Tech.

fedlawman · November 2007

"What BMW car do you drive, day in & day out, that gives you a thrill AND gets you where you need to be?"

For me, there is no such thing as one car that can "thrill" and "get you where you need to be."

unlimitedjoe · November 2007

he already owns an xeye. :confuse:

on the 4 beautiful cars that you suggested,( for the daily commute.) what should they do if it rains?

i have 1 suggestion, drive carefully.

safe & fun driving gentleman.

unlimitedjoe · November 2007

for me, except for being in a blizzard, the 335xi is thrilling & gets me to where i need to be safely.

circlew · November 2007

I assume that means a new M3 or a 1-series tii would not do the trick for you?

Regards,
OW

fedlawman · November 2007

Unfortunately, probably not.

A Lotus Exige S or Honda S2000 would give me the same level of pure, unfiltered, driving pleasure, but I still need my E30's backseat for now.

I'll probably hang on to my M3 forever (how could any car "replace" it?) and add something more comfortable later on like a Porsche Cayman S.

spiritinthesky · November 2007

To avoid being long-winded, the conversation from my patient perspective, centers around 2 issues: How does the car handle at the track, and how happy will I be, like the majority of us, driving the car every day. Forget what your stock adviser made for you last week (the stock market has dropped 800 points in 4 days).....

Does anyone understand this? .....

What BMW car do you drive, day in & day out, that gives you a thrill AND gets you where you need to be?

For somebody trying to avoid being long winded, you were. And a bit antagonistic in the process.

For me, my 2003 M5 fits the bill perfectly. And a low mileage mint condition used one will run you less than a loaded 335ix. For my nephew, the 335i works very well. We both live in the Pittsburgh area and thus know how to drive in snow. Including the occasional big dump when it's best to to leave any sports sedan, RWD or AWD, parked (and take an SUV).

I hope your question is more rhetorical than real. I may have done pretty well over the years, but I never thought I was rich enough to buy a $50k car first and ask questions or do test drives later.

roadburner · November 2007

A Lotus Exige S or Honda S2000 would give me the same level of pure, unfiltered, driving pleasure, but I still need my E30's backseat for now.

I'm pretty much in the same situation. I've been noticing that more and more HPDE participants are driving cars like the Exige or the Radical- the reason being that most new cars have had their handling "dumbed down" and/or are fitted with overly intrusive electronic nannies. How can you learn anything about vehicle dynamics in a car like that?

roadburner · November 2007

For me, my 2003 M5 fits the bill perfectly. And a low mileage mint condition used one will run you less than a loaded 335ix.

Great car. I almost picked up a 2002 but it sold the day before I went to look at it... :mad:

bav_fan07 · November 2007

Hello there - just wanted to hear experiences of BMW drivers that either have RWD or FWD vehicles.

Was the extra cost for the Xi worth it? or is it worth it to get RWD with a set of winter tires/wheels?

I know other members (i.e. Shipo) have mentioned that its better to go with RWD with winter tires/wheels. I really can't make up my mind - I'm looking at a USED 06 BMW 330i or even an Xi, but just can't seem to make up my mind if AWD is better then RWD.

thoughts?

Thanks

unlimitedjoe · November 2007

howdy,

in my opinion, i believe that the awd was worth the money, and here are my reasons.

1) snow, because both cars with the same snow tires on them, awd much better.

2) rain, four claws much safer.

3) grip, so when i put in a chip & a couple of other after market goodies,the tires will GRIP and not slip or burn rubber.

all in all for me, the 335xi is fast, sure footed, more poised in slippery conditions and when it's punching it's way out of a tight bend, oh so thrilling!

good luck in making your decision, hope this helped.

safe & fun driving, joe !

fedlawman · November 2007

It depends on how you plan on using your car.

Would you drive your $45,000 BMW during a blizzard to commute to work, or are you more likely to light a fire and stay home that day?

You have relatively mild weather up there compared to cities like Montreal, Buffalo, etc. so you don't get crazy snow during the winter. I suspect RWD with all-season tires would be just fine up there, but it really boils down to your personal preference.

dakineguy · November 2007

Does the same apply to the 328i vs. the 328xi too?

unlimitedjoe · November 2007

it's not just the snow for me, in the rain it hardly even bothers the xi.

it truely is an expereance to drive in it.

i strongly suggest to test drive both cars in wet & dry conditions, and see if you feel the same way as me.

also, my car is a daily user. never no what the roads or weather will throw at you, rained in n.y. the last 3 of 4 days.

good luck, cause it took me more than a couple of test drives, for me to figure which of the 2 to choose.

kdshapiro · November 2007

"Would you drive your $45,000 BMW during a blizzard to commute to work, or are you more likely to light a fire and stay home that day? "

Since you asked, I would drive the $45K BMW to work, and I have, without snow tires.

circlew · November 2007

Ditto. The AS and AWD is fine for me in any snow under 2 feet!

Regards,
OW

roadburner · November 2007

I know other members (i.e. Shipo) have mentioned that its better to go with RWD with winter tires/wheels.

Count me in with Shipo; some folks would have you believe that driving a RWD BMW in anything other than semi-arid conditions is akin to playing russian roulette with a Tec-9. In actuality, if you have anything approaching serviceable driving skills you will do just fine in a RWD BMW. BMW tacitly admits that their AWD models aren't intended to be hard-core driving machines, since they don't offer a Sport suspension on any xi. And if you don't believe me, check the quotes from Road & Track in my earlier post #215. This is not to say that the AWD Bimmers are bad cars, but the RWD models offer the purer driving experience. In my case, If I really wanted an AWD performance car I'd be deciding between an EVO or STi. In actuality, I'm waiting to see if Munich sees fit to offer a limited slip on an iteration of the 135i coupe. In the meantime, I'll continue to cheat death in my Club Sport and Mazdaspeed3... :P

circlew · November 2007

I hope you have air bags!

Regards,
OW

roadburner · November 2007

I hope you have air bags!

The Club Sport only has front bags, fortunately. Alas, the MS3 has several, which is part of the reason it weighs too much... :mad:

circlew · November 2007

Heck, the 1-series will be a porker for you! (I need to see if I fit!) That would be an almost 800 lb. increase from the MCS!!!

But, then again, you would be true to your screen name with the added 130HP & LB/Ft to struggle with that 135i Gorilla!

Regards,
OW

roadburner · November 2007

Heck, the 1-series will be a porker for you!

To be perfectly honest, I'm having so much fun with the Club Sport and the MS3 that I'll probably just hold on to them and continue to build up the M1 acquisition fund.
As an aside, this coming weekend will mark the twelfth anniversary of my trip to Chicago to take delivery of my Club Sport. Time flies when you're having fun!!!

unlimitedjoe · November 2007

all righty then, we have a guy with a mazda 3, giving advice to a guy from toronto, on which bimmer he should choose. :sick:

what next, maybe we'll get classic muscle car guys telling us awd guys that, with a good pair of snows they will have no problem keeping on the road with us, or maybe even a vintage guy telling a guy in toronto that with under $5000.00 you can get a car that will stick to the road in the rain?

i understand that a new bimmer is for more the a few somewhat priveliged, hard working and enjoys cars kind of guy, can also understand guys with M3s, M5s & classic Tii saying , what the heck is bmw thinking of putting an awd model in there beautiful handling sport sedans.

but come on, the 335 i or xi is a sweet, fast & fun machine, and if you don't beleive that.

k sara sara. :confuse:

kdshapiro · November 2007

k sara sara

Isn't it Que sera sera?

habitat1 · November 2007

Isn't it Que sera sera?

I actually figured that one out myself, it's the preceeding paragraph that has me scratching my head. Perhaps you can give me the English translation of:

i understand that a new bimmer is for more the a few somewhat priveliged, hard working and enjoys cars kind of guy, can also understand guys with M3s, M5s & classic Tii saying , what the heck is bmw thinking of putting an awd model in there beautiful handling sport sedans.

I know the Edmund's rule that we are supposed to stick with discussing cars, and not nitpick on spelling and grammer, but is it really too much to ask that posts be at least semi-literate? :sick:

shipo · November 2007

These days there seem to be four different classes of BMW drivers:

1) Those that have driven cars of all stripes through all kinds of weather and over widely varying road and track conditions and have determined RWD cars offer the best all around performance of the group.

2) Those that live in environments with challenging terrain and frequent winter weather that cannot get to and fro with just the simple addition of winter rubber to a RWD car, and as such truly need AWD.

3) Those that believe (correctly or otherwise, I'm thinking the latter) that an AWD car eliminates the need to mount winter rubber when the weather turns foul.

4) The folks who've had too much AWD Kool-Aid to drink and who believe that in spite of the extra weight and drive-train complexity, the AWD version of the E90 and E92 reign supreme regardless of the road conditions.

While I love debating this issue and have for a number of years, of late I've found that this discussion has often descended to the point of unintelligible irrelevance, so much so that the debate is now akin to arguing with a head-strong three-year old. Make an intelligent and well thought out argument or point as to why one methodology is superior and with what constraints and I'll be there for the debate. Failing that, I've got better things to do with my time. :P

Best Regards,
Shipo

roadburner · November 2007

Well said!

circlew · November 2007

Here is another category:

5) Those #1 drivers who decide that the AWD trade-off is worth the added traction from the scarcely less performance, predominantly from the 335 turbo variant depending on the real or perceived need all year round despite the added weight, drive train complexity or with or without snows depending on conditions!

Regards,
OW

habitat1 · November 2007

5) Those #1 drivers who decide that the AWD trade-off is worth the added traction from the scarcely less performance, predominantly from the 335 turbo variant depending on the real or perceived need all year round despite the added weight, drive train complexity or with or without snows depending on conditions!

Your "scarcly" is my "noticably". Granted, the power of the 335i tends to mitigate the impact of the added weight and drivetrain loss on straight line acceleration. But not on steering, handling, balance and the generally nimbler feel of RWD.

I think the very reason this AWD vs RWD issue continues to be debated in the BMW forums is a tribute to BMW. Throw 4-matic on a C class or G35 and even I might call the difference in handling "scarcely" perceptible. But the C class and G35 are NOT in the same league as the 3 series as far as driving dynamics. When you put AWD on a BMW, you aren't adding extra weight to a lumbering buffalo, you are strapping a weight belt onto a cheetah. That AWD cheetah may still be able to outmaneuver and outaccelerate just about every other animal in the jungle (and even the unladen cheetah, when there is snow on the ground). But it's hard for me to call the added weight and other assorted impacts "scarcly" noticable.

Perhaps I've been watching too much "Animal Channel" with my daughters?

fedlawman · November 2007

"all righty then, we have a guy with a mazda 3, giving advice to a guy from toronto, on which bimmer he should choose.

That Mazda3 owner knows more about BMW's and how to drive them than 95% of the people reading this forum...

"what next, maybe we'll get classic muscle car guys telling us awd guys that, with a good pair of snows they will have no problem keeping on the road with us

If people would spend $200 on an advanced driving school, they could learn how to handle a RWD car safely on wet and dry pavement. Then they could save $2000 and steer clear of the AWD car they don't really need.

"or maybe even a vintage guy telling a guy in toronto that with under $5000.00 you can get a car that will stick to the road in the rain?"

Actually, a clean E30 325ix goes for less than $4000.

cdnpinhead · November 2007

driving my '65 MGB (yeah, I know, in what century) through the panhandle of Idaho (near Bonners Ferry) in January of '72. I carefully passed a slower vehicle and lost traction. There was a bit of fishtailing (as we called it, back in the day), but not much. Traction was regained (with a bit of finesse, I might add) and life went on.

There was a time when RWD vehicles were driven in all sorts of weather and people actually survived the experience.

Imagine.

roadburner · November 2007

That Mazda3 owner knows more about BMW's and how to drive them than 95% of the people reading this forum...

Nah, I'm just an average car geek who spends more time at the track than he should...

If people would spend $200 on an advanced driving school, they could learn how to handle a RWD car safely on wet and dry pavement. Then they could save $2000 and steer clear of the AWD car they don't really need.

Agreed. And some owners will spend $5000 on performance upgrades when they can't exploit even 50% of the capability of their stock Bimmer.

Actually, a clean E30 325ix goes for less than $4000.

And it's a great rally car too- if you don't hole the sump with a large rock...

roadburner · November 2007

There was a time when RWD vehicles were driven in all sorts of weather and people actually survived the experience.

Yesterday I put @100 miles on my Club Sport and it rained almost the entire time. My only traction control was the OEM LSD and the sole electronic aid was ABS. I suppose some might have found the experience terrifying, but I had a blast.

unlimitedjoe · November 2007

sorry for the divinci code style of writing, but here's what it means.

1) more then a few people can afford a 3 series.

2) old time bmw guys, can't accept the future.

safe & fun driving. :P

unlimitedjoe · November 2007

hello shipo,

just trying to understand you, are you saying that the 335i will win on all dry road & track conditions? ( because you know it won't in rain & snow.)

if you are, i'll assume you know it will only be for a few tenths of a seconds either way!

it seems to me that you think your driving a new GT-R or something, that would warrant such a ridiculous post ( sorry pal we are not 3 yrs old)

or that it will beat or be better than the xi significantly?

if thats the way you feel, may i suggest a few things,
1) a big glass of awd kool-aid, 2) go to a dealer, test drive 335xi, and if that don't work, 3) go to japan and test drive GT-R so you understand your not driving one! :P

unlimitedjoe · November 2007

if infiniti figured out how to do better with the awd, how much longer ,( i feel already. ) will it take bmw?

pat · November 2007

This is getting too personal - it's time to agree to disagree and move on. No one is going to change each other's mind with these kinds of posts.

kdshapiro · November 2007

AWD on a G does the same thing to the drive as AWD on the 3.

roadburner · November 2007

No one is going to change each other's mind with these kinds of posts.

Exactly. Which is why this thread should be locked/closed. The following quote from post #246 by Shipo sums things up perfectly:

"While I love debating this issue and have for a number of years, of late I've found that this discussion has often descended to the point of unintelligible irrelevance, so much so that the debate is now akin to arguing with a head-strong three-year old."

kdshapiro · November 2007

Why should the thread be locked? You certainly don't have to participate.

circlew · November 2007

I understand the critiques and preferences to both power trains. The feel is different and I understand how preference to a lighter feel would be better appreciated.

However, since I logged more time in the xi, my view is that the handling prowess of the same sedan in AWD is not hindered at all vs. a stock i. I am sure the SP/Summer Tires offer much higher handling performance on the i. No question.

The traction delivery speaks volumes. It's a real great all-climate car. No one can claim the RWD with AS tires grips better. One driver might be better at controlling the RWD in the wet over another but bottom line is traction is at a much higher level in this set up.

Given all of the above, the extra 50 HP and torque in the blown 335xi should be that much higher in performance. The handling differences are a wash in the E90 without SP.

Regards,
OW

bruceomega · November 2007

FWIW,

I tend to view the AWD issue as being analogous to the automatic transmission. Early automatics had a huge performance penalty, which I can personally attest to from driving my parents '55 Chevy V-8 with a 2 speed Powerglide! Even some of the more recent ATs left a lot to be desired, such as the 4 speed AT in my '98 Accord V-6. But over time, advances in AT technology have narrowed the performance gap such that an AT is a reasonable alternative for some, but not all, BMW buyers. The 6 speed AT in my 535Xi is a pretty decent transmission. I also think market forces require the availability of a good AT for BMW to stay competitive.

Similar thing for AWD- My expectation is AWD technology will advance over time, and the performance gap between it and RWD on normal road conditions will be narrowed (somewhat? a lot? who knows). I also think the market trend is such that BMW needs to offer AWD to stay competitive in the marketplace.

Independent of whether people have valid reasons to buy AWD, I think the trend is going to grow over time and a greater percentage of BMWs will be AWD.

Rather than debating AWD versus RWD, I would be interested in seeing AWD BMWs compared to competitive AWD offerings from other makers - AWD vs AWD. My impression, just from reading, is that if you are going to buy AWD, then a BMW AWD is the best choice for performance driving.

Thanks
Bruce

circlew · November 2007

Well written and accurate.

Regards,
OW

fedlawman · November 2007

Agreed Bruce, good point.

My opposition to AWD has nothing to do with the performance advantages or disadvantages vs. RWD. My continuing point is simply that:

1. Like the Automatic Transmission, AWD saps some of the fun and challenge from a car that is supposed to be a fun and challenging driving experience.

If a car is utterly and completely predictable by being capable of gripping the road in the same unflappable manner, on all roads, in every condition, regardless of driver skill, and without risk of going even a little sideways once in a while, then what's the point? Where's the fun in that?

2. AWD is being overmarketed to people who really don't need it.

Too many shoppers are being fleeced into thinking that AWD will protect their families from certain death because "4 driven wheels are safer than 2." AWD won't help prevent you from understeering into an embankment because you took a slick corner too fast. And when you are heading out of control towards that embankment, it won't help you stop any sooner either.

Mr_Shiftright · November 2007

It all comes down, eventually, to that little 6 X 6" patch of tire that keeps your car on, or off, the road. Without any grip, 10 wheel drive doesn't matter.

fedlawman · November 2007

Actually, Audi is working on a 10 wheel drive sport sedan. It can drive upside down, backwards, on teflon-coated pavement, with the driver blindfolded and hands tied behind his back...

circlew · November 2007

Agreed...you just get more grip with 4. Specifically in acceleration, linear or lateral. Loose2 you still have 2. Loose all, and nothing matters.

Regards,
OW

BMW 3-Series - AWD or RWD?

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