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BMW 3-Series - AWD or RWD?
The AWD BMW 335xi is faster from 0 to 60 mph than the RWD 335i. This is probably due to better traction. At higher speeds the 335i is probably faster in acceleration as it weighs about 200 pounds less. In contrast, the 328xi is slower from 0 to 60 mph than the 328i.
Before seeing these statistics, my mind was made up on getting the 335i in the future. At 6500 feet above sea level where I live snow falls occasionally in the winter but lasts at most 1 to 2 days. The 335xi with summer tires may be still usable during the winter without changing to winter tires.
My concern is that BMW does not seem to approach AWD like for instance Porsche. It is designed less for performance and more for convenience.
You cannot get the 335xi with the sports suspension or paddle shifters that are available in the 335i. I have driven both vehicles and did not notice a difference. However, in a controlled environment like a track, the AWD 335xi may be easier to drive fast than the 335i in the hands of a novice.
The mileage on the highway is 2 mpg less in the 335xi than the 335i, but the faster 0 to 60 times in the 335xi makes for an interesting decision.
Before seeing these statistics, my mind was made up on getting the 335i in the future. At 6500 feet above sea level where I live snow falls occasionally in the winter but lasts at most 1 to 2 days. The 335xi with summer tires may be still usable during the winter without changing to winter tires.
My concern is that BMW does not seem to approach AWD like for instance Porsche. It is designed less for performance and more for convenience.
You cannot get the 335xi with the sports suspension or paddle shifters that are available in the 335i. I have driven both vehicles and did not notice a difference. However, in a controlled environment like a track, the AWD 335xi may be easier to drive fast than the 335i in the hands of a novice.
The mileage on the highway is 2 mpg less in the 335xi than the 335i, but the faster 0 to 60 times in the 335xi makes for an interesting decision.
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Not a chance. Summer tires have virtually no grip in the winter time, especially in the snow. True, you might be able to get'er going with AWD and summer tires, but stopping and turning abilities will be all but non-existant. Suffice to say, if you try to drive that car in the snow, it's not a matter of "if" but a matter of "when" you'll wreck it. Do yourself a favor and get the 335i SP and then with the money saved buy yourself a second set of winter wheels and tires.
Best Regards,
Shipo
I'll second what Shipo said about not driving in the snow with summer tires on an AWD 3 series. I had an '01 330xi that had new summer performance tires on it when I purchasd the car used. I quickly learned at first snowfall that the car with those tires does not do well in the snow!
My current car, an '06 330xi, has all season tires and it works very well in the snow.
Thanks
Bruce
What about the other performance factors mentioned. Yes, the 335xi is two thousand more, but is the better acceleration and possible handling benefits worth it in the 335xi. What made you Bruce pick the 330xi which is slower than the 330i ?
Thanks.
cbanct
As I was writing the above statement another thought occured to me. Most likely the BMW numbers were gotten by base model vehicles, meaning that there were 225 series all-season tires mounted at all four corners. Given the extra bite offered by the SP tires (both wider and grippier rubber), my bet is that the 335i will be the quicker of the two to sixty.
Regardless, you most likely won't ever be subjecting your car to such abuse and as such, the "i" will be faster in all "normal" driving environments.
In the end, were I in your shoes, I'd opt for the 335i SP and buy a second set of winter wheels and tires.
Best Regards,
Shipo
But, here goes anyway!!
I reserve comment on the 335xi vs the 335i until I experience the two for myself.
I can only submit that the AWD technology is awesome in the grip department. All others must experience the performance differential DESPITE the weight issue for themselves.
I have learned much on this forum regarding this class-leading driving performance that BMW owns by the personal experience of much more capable owners. I am here to tell you that irrespective of past 3'er capability, the x-drive does not detract from the experience from my view. It really is great fun for me.
All I am able to do is convey the new x-drive capabilty from my own experience, as humble as that is. Outside of on-track testing, it is very hard to get this thing loose even on all-season rubber in typical spirited almost-legal driving.
You would think the extra weight would help loose things up but the slight understeer into a turn is so easily controlled even with more juice before, at or after the apex. The x-drive is just beginning to show potential, IMHO.
Also, despite the non-SP suspension tuning, I still feel that this suspension has something the 330i non-SP does not. It's REALLY tight!
Regards,
OW
Just speaking for my own priorities and preferences, I chose AWD for better performance in adverse road conditions, all else being equal such as the same tires.
I've never tried to justify my preference for AWD with it's performance in normal road conditions. I have noted several instances, like the one you referenced for the 0 - 60 times, where AWD can have a better metric than RWD, but I view those as discrete data points in the overall performance spectrum.
I've been driving for many years. In the early days, I owned a variety of RWD cars and know how to drive them in the snow. But when I took up skiing, and was driving to mid-Atlantic ski resorts on the weekends, I switched to FWD. In my experience, FWD is better than RWD in the snow and ice (especially ice), again with everything else being equal.
I then decided to try AWD as it seemed to offer the best of both worlds- better dry road performance than FWD and better snow and ice performance than RWD, all else being equal.
My '01 330xi was my first AWD. Although it had the wrong tires for the snow, I found I could (at slow speeds) work the throttle and steering to make the car go in the snow and dance around a corner when needed, in a way I do not feel I could have done with RWD.
I traded in the '01 for the '06 330xi, and have been very pleased with its performance in the snow and ice, and it's performance overall. However, I never compared the 330xi to the 330i.
As an aside, I just ordered a new 5 series twin turbo. Like last time, I did not consider the RWD version and ordered the 535xi.
Thanks
Bruce
I will probably keep my 99 Passat 1.8T for winter driving. I still love the car even though it makes groans and moans from the suspension now.
Shipo's point about the tires used in the 0 to 60 times could be true. Edmunds did 4.9 secs from 0 to 60 in a 335i auto withe the sports package and suspension in the comparison with the Lexus IS 350. BMW lists this time as 5.6 secs. That is a big difference.
Enjoy your 535xi Bruce.
cbanct
Another question... I've never had a car like the 335i with the SP that has the summer performance tires. Do I need to be worried during the winter when it rains? Or will the grip be good enough? I noticed that there are no all-season tires for the 335i with SP unless I go with a GFT and put a spare in the trunk, which I really don't want to do.
To answer your question, you do not need the xi unless you are really nervous in wet conditions.
As always, test them both and your personal experience will guide you.
Regards,
OW
It's a little concerning that you were able to easily break loose the 335i with the 17 inch All Weathers. I wonder if the summer tires with ZSP will be even worse. I guess as long as the traction control keeps you on track, it's not a problem.
The only issue will be cold weather. If you don't get snow, I'd assume you don't get icy roads, either? As long as the temperature is 40+ degrees, summer tires should be better than all-seasons, in all conditions.
regards,
kyfdx
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Summer tires are stickier (except in ice/snow) but wear faster than AWT.
Unless you see a lot of ice and snow, 335i is all you need. If you get ZSP, I believe summer tires are included.
Regards,
OW
I don't see any ice or snow in the San Francisco Bay Area. I see it when I go skiing up in Tahoe, but I won't be taking the 335i up there. So I will stick with the 335i with ZSP in that case. Thanks a lot.
I've met owners of several generations of RWD and AWD BMW vehicles who live on hills or have lengthy sloped driveways. The one consistent comment, after trading up to xi, is that they are delighted to be able to finally drive their xi's all the way up to their front doors instead of having to park the RWDs at the bottom of the driveway for a few months of the year simply because the traction is insufficient even with grippy snow tires.
I can tell you that they are confirmed converts to the xi technology. Unless you are racing your vehicle, if your region has the potential for snow, even a little, go for the xi. The performance difference, small that it may be, will be well worth it.
Consider this picture:
Repeated trips through the cold wet snow carrying bags of groceries, kids, hockey equipment, etc, or...
The heated seats keeping you toasty as you casually motor right to your front door.
xeye - 335xi
The MT is an edge slower in acceleration than the AT so power difference is a toss up.
Rgards,
OW
The flip side of course is that several of my neighbors on the opposite side of our street have driveways that have grades in excess of 30%. True, my 530i couldn't climb them in the snow, but then, none of their AWD and winter tire equipped vehicles could climb them either.
Best Regards,
Shipo
I'll bet a 535xi could with AWT's!
Regards,
OW
Best Regards,
Shipo
Regards,
Ow
The car just did not let go on any tire and I avoided the collision. Not to say I could not have done it in RWD car but I will never know.
Regards,
OW
If you need to manuver, then leave the front wheel alone to do their job, namely to turn. Said another way, give me the option of either a 335i and winter tires or a 335xi with all seasons and I'll pick the former here in New England every time.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Best - AWD with 4 snows.
Better - AWD with good all seasons.
OK - RWD with snows.
Stinks- RWD with all seasons.
My opinion is based on years of driving having tried each one of the above.
Best - AWD with 4 snows.
Better - RWD with snows.
OK - AWD with good all seasons.
Fair (especially if terrain is relatively flat) - RWD with all seasons.
Sucketh - AWD with summer rubber.
Sucketh much - RWD with summer rubber.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Having learned how to drive in the worst conditions in Montreal (with all due respect, New Hampshire, while getting a lot of snow, is Disneyland when compared to crappy driving conditions in Montreal), I am qualified to offer the definitive tires for the given conditions.
Best - AWD with 4 snows. AGREED
Better - AWD with good all seasons. We'll see on the 335xi. I have the ContiProContact M&S. I'd rather have 4 snows, but I'll report honestly after deep snow, slush, ice.
Better - RWD with snows. On ice only. I'd rather be in a wild fishtail on RWD snows than AWD.
On snow? No Way.
Fair (especially if terrain is relatively flat) - RWD with all seasons.
Sucketh - AWD with summer rubber.
Sucketh much - RWD with summer rubber.
On another note, I need an opinion:
After conversation with the Service Director of my sales dealership where I bought my 335xi, he could not find a technician who could explain why the 335xi does not get an oil cooler when the 335i does. He therefore, graciously, offered to finance one if I so choose. He agreed to my request to put it in writing on dealership letterhead.
So far (~2100 miles), the car has behaved well, no overheating and the oil has been consistently below 250. Do I mess with something that isn't broken or go for the cooler and risk issues where there aren't any now? I don't race and my driving, although moderately "spirited", is not geared to attract attention, if you get my point.
Still, I want the protection that a properly installed oil cooler would provide. Are there any issues with installing an oil cooler in less than racing conditions?
Comments?
xeye
BTW, I also learned how to drive in Montreal (DDO/Pointe Claire actually). My dad taught me in a 1979 Honda Civic 5-speed. I took my exam during a blizzard in a Chrysler K car (High School drivers ed car).
True story, shortly after putting the winter tires (Michelin Arctic-Alpins) on my 530i, we were in the midst of a twenty some inch snow fall with widely scattered power outages predicted. With between eight and ten heavily rutted inches of snow on the roads I headed out in the 530i to fetch gasoline for our generator. Once on the main road I passed a whole line of FWD cars struggling to climb a hill, not to mention a Crown Vic patrol car stuck in the ditch on the opposite side of the road. Once clear of those obstructions, I had clear sailing for the next couple of miles up the winding and hilly road, until I got slowed down by a line of 4WD SUVs that were fishtailing and/or sliding all over the place.
If you haven't driven a late model BMW in the snow, deep snow even, with a set of good winter tires, you simply cannot imagine how stable winter driving can be.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Yes, I should have been clear. Either the dealership or BMW will pay for the cooler. I'm not sure which, but either way, it's not me. I guess my only concern is a botched job and making the current benign situation a nagging headache.
I suppose I have to assume they'll do a proper job and decide solely on the merits of the cooler.
xeye
I couldn't disagree more. In deep snow having 2 wheels push and 2 wheels pull, even without snows, provides better traction than having 2 wheels push.
Regards,
OW
My issue is that AWD does absolutely nothing for stopping (except that the added weight makes stops LONGER), and as such, the winter tire equipped RWD car will always stop shorter than the all-season AWD car. Turning will also tilt the advantage to the properly set-up RWD car as the turning tires will have more bite than the relatively slippery front tires of the AWD car.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Best Regards,
Shipo
Regards,
OW
Best Regards,
Shipo
Regards,
OW
Best Regards,
Shipo
Check your weather statistics and then check your ego. Montreal averages 215cm of annual snowfall, about 85" for us metric challenged Yankees. Syracuse averages 110", Buffalo over 90". Concord New Hampshire is a rather mild 64", but Mt. Washington is over 250" a year and if you are close to or north of it, you are over 100".
Montreal doesn't come close to the snowfall those of us who have endured Cornell or the University of Sryacuse have had to put up with (I was a visiting guest professor at both in my younger years, before global warming). I have spent a fair time in Montreal, Quebec and Toronto as well. Nice cities, all of them.
After conversation with the Service Director of my sales dealership where I bought my 335xi, he could not find a technician who could explain why the 335xi does not get an oil cooler when the 335i does.
You won't find this posted on BMW's web site, but after looking into the oil cooler issue myself (my nephew has an early build 335i in which the oil cooler was installed after delivery) the reason given to me by a senior BMW manager was that they don't consider the 335ix a model that is likely be tracked (and therefore run at high rpms for extended periods). In his words (paraphrased) BMW did not design the 335ix to be as "serious" of high performance sport sedan as the 335i sedan/coupe. Even equiped with a sport package, the suspension and tires are "detuned" compared to the non-x full sport package.
And, sure enough, my nephew who has now taken two BMW performance driving school and gone to three different tracks on several occasions on "BMW day" has only met one single 335ix owner compared to dozens of 335i and even 328i owners.
The good news is that there have been almost no overheating issues with cars that are not tracked, so you shouldn't have any problems in normal driving. If you do plan on going to the track, you might want to consider taking up the dealer on their offer. But you will be pretty lonely, from what I understand.
None of the cities you mentioned get the kind of harsh weather Montreal gets. Lots of snow, no doubt, but not -20 to -30 for weeks on end, thaws and deep freezes back to back, and packed snow so hard it's like driving on a skating rink. Thank you, I'll stick with the xi and the intelligent DSC and stick to the road in all conditions better than any RWD; starting, stopping and turning. I'm really looking forward to the winter, for a change.
As for the cooler, and YOUR ego, Dr. spiritinthesky, just because I choose to drive a safe car with a 300 hp engine is no reflection on any desire to run at high RPM. "High RPM" does not necessarily mean 130 MPH on the track - it also means red-line shifting in any gear, anywhere. The fact is that the decision to omit the cooler was not a technical decision but a marketing one. I'm also quite sure that 90% of the 335is out there will NEVER be tracked, just like 90%+ of 4x4 SUVs will never see off-road duty. That being the case, the cooler should have been an after-market option or an extra cost dealer option, or in my case, included on every car equipped with the 335 twin-turbo engine.
Since I see that the cooler should not hurt the car and can only improve longevity, I see no reason not to avail myself of the opportunity at no cost to me.
Out of idle curiosity, what do you drive?
BTW, say hi to your nephew, Mario Earnhardt Johnson Busch Petty Patrick.
Regards,
OW
Calm down. The oil overheating issue doesn't occur from occassionally, or even frequently, shifting at red line. The documenting instances of overheating were almost exclusively from running the car at high speed and high rpms for long, continuous periods of time. Either on a track or in a severe road test environment (i.e. California desert).
You asked why the cooler isn't standard in the ix, but is in the sport package equiped i. I relayed what I was told by a senior BMW engineer. I agree it appears to be a marketing decision, based upon the fact that, historically, the "x" AWD package was an even more infrequent visitor to the track, compared to RWD models.
Out of idle curiosity, what do you drive?
2003 BMW M5 (46,000 miles on the odometer)
2007 911 Turbo (9,500 miles on the odometer)
Sorry if I wasn't clear, but he chose the 335i, not the xi. He went the European Delivery route and the xi wasn't even a choice back then. His car was an early build and they notified him when the car was en route to the US that they would be installing an oil cooler upon arrival.
But let me use the opportunity to lobby on behalf of the BMW/Porsche/Skip Barber and other professionally instructed performance driving schools. If you can make the time, don't even think for a second about the money. They are worth many times their price in the expereince itself and the future enjoyment you will get out of your car.
Nice cars. I've wanted some seat time in the 911 Turbo since I was in short pants. A timeless set of wheels, to be sure.
I don't run my 335xi at the extreme conditions you describe, nor do I ever intend to, although a high-speed run across the country would be interesting ( I don't think I could afford the speeding tickets). The bottom line question I have, though, is do you think it would nonetheless extend the life of the seals, cylinders, valves, etc, by having the oil cooler in-line? Would it help sustain the resale value of the car? Remember that it will cost me no $$ to have the work done.
Let me know what you think.
Thanks,
xeye
cc HOST: I really have to remember to post messages BEFORE Attitude Readjustment Hour.
"Not really" to both questions - but it's free insurance so, yes, I'd go ahead and get it.
By the way, one of the best things you can do for your seals, cylinders and gaskets is proper break in. That includes driving the car long enough for the engine oil to reach full operating temperature before shut down. I've seen Shipo, Habitat or one of the other "regulars" posting that recommendation in various forums and it is probably the best free advice I've seen here. So, yes, take the free oil cooler as insurance for overheating; but also avoid short hops during break in that don't give the engine the opportunity to fully "heat up". If the engine parts, seals and gaskets don't fully heat up, expand and contract during break in, they will be more prone to leaks, cracks, etc. down the road.