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Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?

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Comments

  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...they should've simply called it the Genesis by Hyundai and completely left the Hyundai name off the car?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Maybe at some point they can just spin off the Genesis car company complete with the requisite latte serving waiting rooms.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...a luxury division of its own called Amati. The attractive 1992 Mazda 929 was a preview of what the aborted Amati would've been.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Good memory - I'd forgotten about that.

    Here's a blurb:

    "the junior of two planned Amati sedans came to life as the midsize entry-luxury Mazda Millenia "

    Mazda Millenia Review
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Only change was the grille.

    Sales comparison with some compeititors:

    August - November (US)

    M: 1,221 | 1,077 | 1,193 | 1,186 = 4,677
    Genesis: 1,177 | 1,029 | 1,121 | 1,151 = 4,478
    GS*: 1,686 | 977 | 819 | 721 = 4,203
    RL: 316 | 259 | 272 | 234 = 1,081

    *Includes hybrid model
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,162
    At least the grille doesn't have a big swoopy H with the same part number from a Santa Fe...

    They still make the RL and the GS? ;)
  • fourteen14fourteen14 Member Posts: 85
    "RL" stands for "Real Luxury"! The RL is for people who don't think that a car like a TL or a Genesis could possibly be good enough for them because it costs less than $50,000!

    Does a luxury car have to be a foreign car?? How about a nice Cadillac STS or STS-V for $47,000 to $84,000?!? 'Cadillac' used to be the synonym for 'luxury'!! You don't see an owner taking the 'Wreath & Crest' off his Caddy so that no one will know what it is!!!!
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Used to be? As far as I'm concerned, Cadillac still is THE synonym for luxury! Sheesh, there's more stuff in my new DTS than I'll ever use. Anything beyond that is definitely overkill.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    "RL" stands for "Real Luxury"! The RL is for people who don't think that a car like a TL or a Genesis could possibly be good enough for them because it costs less than $50,000!

    Is that sarcasm, or are you for real? :)
  • fourteen14fourteen14 Member Posts: 85
    Actually constructive sarcasm! Since this discussion is about the luxury car market and Genesis’ place in that market, the comparative features and value of similar, and claimed to be superior, vehicles is most appropriate!

    My remark comes from a conversation that I had with a veteran Acura salesman a few years ago when the fresh new generation TL was in the showroom competing against the older generation RL that year. The TL was clearly superior in nearly all areas, yet the RL was priced about $10,000 more! I asked the guy why anyone would pay so much more money for an inferior model. He claimed that sales of the RL were still quite good, because customers, who were used to MB, BMW, and Cadillac prices, considered the RL a real bargain, but viewed the TL as too plebian in spite of it’s virtues.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    I'm responding to the orignal poster's question. Was the original question open to Genesis owner's only? I think I missed that part?

    Of course it matters to Genesis owners the most. They are the one's who will decide if the car is a success or not. It all comes down to units sold, not positive posts on a message board by non-owners. But the original post asked for everyone's opinion and I gave mine.

    My question is a new one, and has nothing to do with the original question. I'm simply asking what luxury car owners think of their Genesis. I think it's a fair and meaningful question.

    Genesis owners do not get to decide if their car is a success. They do get to decide if they think it measures up as a luxury car.

    Sales do not determine the quality and engineering of a luxury car. Only customer satisfaction can determine that. In fact, some of the finest luxury cars have the lowest sales figures in the market)
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Hyundai's 2010 Genesis Commercials Will Get Super Bowl Watchers' Attention (Inside Line)

    image
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    That 306hp V6 sounds absolutely yummy.
  • trimastertrimaster Member Posts: 163
    I'm confused. In your original post to me you said:

    It doesn't matter what you or I think.

    What matters most is what the Genesis owners think, especially those who have previously owned so called luxury brands. If they say they're luxury cars, they are. It would be interesting to know the answer. I honestly don't know.

    Then you come back & say:



    Genesis owners do not get to decide if their car is a success. They do get to decide if they think it measures up as a luxury car.

    If it doesn't matter what you or I think, and Genesis owners don't get to decide if it's a success, then who gets to decide?

    Sales do not determine the quality and engineering of a luxury car. Only customer satisfaction can determine that. In fact, some of the finest luxury cars have the lowest sales figures in the market)

    I never said anything about sales determining the quality & engineering of a luxury car. Sales affect profitability and I'm pretty sure they want the Genesis to increase market share. It does the company no good to have a great car that no one buys. That's not Hyundai's plan for this car.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    Sorry if I misunderstood.

    I just didn't want success (as in sales figures) and quality/engineering that define a luxury car to get confused. A luxury car of the highest order could be a miserable failure, and a pure fraud could be a great sales success.

    To clarify further, I think luxury car drivers are better qualified to judge whether a car is a luxury car or not. I owned one luxury car years ago, so I'm not a great judge myself. I would like to hear from Genesis owners that have owned luxury brands previous or current to the Genesis, if there are any out there yet.
  • trimastertrimaster Member Posts: 163
    Sorry if I misunderstood.

    No prob!

    I just didn't want success (as in sales figures) and quality/engineering that define a luxury car to get confused. A luxury car of the highest order could be a miserable failure, and a pure fraud could be a great sales success.

    I understand what you're saying. I don't see many of them here in Florida, but that doesn't mean it's not a nicely made car. You have to give credit where it's due. I think the timing couldn't have been worse for this car, seeing how we're in a recession that appears to have no end in sight. Buying a new car is the last thing on a lot of people's minds right now. Hopefully they won't discontinue the car because of poor sales (in the automotive industryin general.)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    complete with the requisite latte serving waiting rooms

    :D
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...can I bring my Genesis back to the dealer?
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Sure thing :)
  • sandy25sandy25 Member Posts: 65
    I would like to hear from Genesis owners that have owned luxury brands previous or current to the Genesis, if there are any out there yet.

    In a recent speech, one of the Hyundai marketing execs said 40% of Genesis buyers traded in luxury cars...so there are quite a few out there. Personally, I have been leasing luxuy cars since 1990 starting with a Lexus LS, followed by an Infiniti Q45, Infiniti Q45, Jaguar XJ8, Saab 9-5, Saab 9-5 and as of last month a Genesis. IMO the Genesis is at least as good as any of those in terms of styling, quality of fit and finish and performance.
  • 101649101649 Member Posts: 192
    Saab 9-5 Luxury Car????
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    50 journalists pick the Hyundai Genesis as the Car of the Year.

    Hyundai Genesis and Ford F-150 Win North American Car, Truck of the Year Awards (AutoObserver)
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Well deserved, obviously. Kudos to the Genesis and Hyundai.

    I saw in another article not only it was the first S. Korean model to take the honor, but this was also the first luxury model to take the award.
  • sandy25sandy25 Member Posts: 65
    Saab 9-5 Luxury Car????

    Yeah, I guess that's a debatable point. But I did LOVE my 9-5's. Anyway, my point was I've owned enough "true" luxury cars to be able to answer bobad's original question.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Hyundai is flying high because Consumer Reports also rated the Genesis their top upscale large sedan.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    * North American COTY
    * CR's top-ranked sedan in the $30-45k price range
    * Runner-up for Motor Trend's COTY

    And... the only luxury car to offer an assurance program that will take your car back within a year if you lose your income.

    Interesting to see what this will do for Genesis sales--and also competitor sales.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Genesis sales already dwarf the Acura RL's. Kinda embarassing for Acura, if you ask me.

    Now that the TL moved up, should Acura kill the RL out of mercy?
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    Now that the TL moved up, should Acura kill the RL out of mercy?

    I heard this RL will become the last, Honda has decided to back off from building any larger cars, RWD or V8.
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    My answer for the OP question is: Yes, but not now.

    Right now IMO cars are classified as:
    1) Economy
    2) Regular
    3) Premium - Near luxury
    4) Entry level luxury
    5) Upper level luxury
    6) Niche class (including exotics)

    There's no boundary between classes for any brand, in this regard Hyundai's Kia competes in both economy and regular class, while Hyundai's moved upward playing in regular and premium class.

    Here's the thing, to move up to a true luxury class Hyundai needs more experience and improve the customer service to catch up with class' standards.
    The best chance to gather such experience is to fight in the premium, a.k.a near luxury class first. This is a role that fits Genesis perfectly. Competition is less fierce in the class, and Genesis already got the good cards to play with. From known competitors only Buick and Lexus ES can pose a threat imo. Lexus buyers are image driven, while Buick customers are seriously loyal. Acura used to be a threat, but the new Darth Vader look will turn off buyers immediately.

    From this point Hyundai can use the experience and establish a real luxury division, arguably under a new brand name as Americans are seriously image conscious. When that happens for goodness sake please don't name it Equus (sp :P ), just name it Genesis
    Check this out:
    a) Acura, Lexus, Infiniti, Hyundai, BMW, MB,...Hyundai, doesn't sound right to me
    b) Acura, Lexus, Infiniti, Equus, BMW, MB,...Equus.... ridiculous.
    c) Acura, Lexus, Infiniti, Genesis, BMW, MB,... don't you all think the Genesis brand will fit right in? It sounds as catchy as Lexus and Infiniti IMO.

    5 more years, 10 at the longest and we may see a true luxury Hyundai. I'll be waiting to see it happen. :shades:
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    Saab 9-5 Luxury Car????

    Well personally I'd categorize the 9-5 in either near luxo or entry level luxury class, along with some Volvo and Acura models.

    The 9-3 is a beaut imo, while the 9-2x and 9-7x are ironic examples of blatant cloning that wear finer outfits than their respective originals Impreza and Trailblazer.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,162
    Genesis isn't a bad name in and of itself...IMO more deserving to be a marque than a model, even if it is just a rebadge from the parent company. The swoopy H has no place on a car in that part of the market.

    Infiniti, Acura, and especially Lexus have proven the American market isn't put off by this. I think the new Hyundai brand would work just as well.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    A a few other honors from Canadian publications - don't forget our neighbor up north :)
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    Still, noone can deny the brand Genesis sounds much catchier than Equus right? :)

    Along with Infiniti, Acura and Lexus, the Genesis sounds just as majestic. Equus.sp otoh....uhh.... a horse?...... :P :P
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    On a side note, the one thing that keep me cold on Hyundai is the hopelessly bland looks on all their models. Sure the Genesis is an improvement (save for the dumb Klingon forehead grille), but I'm still not impressed (the interior is pretty good though).
    The Gen coupe is the first Hyundai ever I dare call decent looking without being too bland.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,162
    Hey, at least it doesn't look like a Kia Amanti....a BMW derivative is downright progressive compared to that atrocious thing. I don't think anyone buys cars from that continent for styling anyway, as few of them have any of it of merit.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The swoopy H has no place on a car in that part of the market

    Perhaps, but this is largely an American sentiment, i.e. that the market should be segmented. Chevy is mainstream, Buick is upscale, Cadillac is luxury.

    Look at how Mercedes operates in Europe. You can get this:

    image

    or this:

    image

    from the same brand.

    What you mentioned is probably why we don't see the entry level Benzes in the USA.

    Even the S class comes in a V6 version - something we never would see here.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,162
    And the American market will make or break the Genesis. I can't see it selling at all in Europe, where Lexus has barely made a dent after all these years. I am sure it is a hit in Seoul, maybe the Chinese will buy a few, it could sell in Oceania...but where else? The H appears very downmarket, I see it and I think of a 1994 Excel. Maybe Hyundai needs a new emblem for its new development.

    Less than 20 years ago you could still get a cloth interior manual transmission 6cyl S-class.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I think China is a big potential market. If they like their big Buicks, here's a direct competitor.
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    Perhaps, but this is largely an American sentiment, i.e. that the market should be segmented.

    Few people realize that companies like MB and Audi also compete in the low end market. MB's A and B-class, Audi A2-A3, and BMW's own 1-series to name a few.
    Another side, Toyota is actually also a luxury brand in Asia. Crown series is one of their legendary models. Nissan President is another (they just renamed it to Infiniti Q in US).
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    ...I see it and I think of a 1994 Excel.

    Do you also see a $35k Avalon or Maxima and think of the 1969 Corolla or 1974 B210? I would guess not. Toyota and Nissan have come a long way since those early tin boxes. And Hyundai has come a long way from the Excel--although my sister had a 1990 Excel and it proved to be one tough little car and not a bad ride for the money.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,162
    I see a 35K Avalon or Maxima and I see vastly overpriced cars.

    I also see a Lexus ES and I see a tarted up Supercamry ;)

    Swoopy H is still a liability, not a positive.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,384
    I don't know about China. How would they react to cars built in South Korea? I know they have at least a bumpy relationship with Japan which is actually better than it used to be when they had virtually no relationship with them.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Sure, they're overpriced... EVERY new car is overpriced at list in today's market. But they don't make you think of an econobox from many years ago, just because of their badge, do they?

    Your Lexus ES comment is interesting though. What you seem to be saying is, a new badge (ala Lexus) won't in itself give the Genesis a luxury image. It's all about the car behind the badge. You don't respect a Lexus ES because it has that magical badge, so why should someone respect a Genesis more if it had a different badge? At least overpricing isn't the issue with the Genesis--or at least not to the degree of the Avalon and Maxima.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,162
    I was wondering the same thing...maybe since both Korea and much of China were occupied by Japan for some time, they will have that in common and not be very adversarial. I am sure Korea has at least some fears of modern Chinese imperialism - but I suspect they can get along, at least in this commercial venue.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,162
    They are also much more distant from the econoboxes of the past, and the logos have changed. The swoopy H is a leftover from when the brand was not so hot, even if some do not wish to admit that it wasn't the most competitive 15 years ago.

    Your incessant picking with anyone who gives criticism to the swoopy H is interesting though :P. ES vs Camry is not in any way applicable to the Genesis. The ES is essentially a rebodied Camry with a few more creature comforts and a large profit margin. The Genesis is not a rebodied Sonata and shares little to nothing with it. Genesis is the GS in the Toyolex heirarchy, not the ES. The Genesis is more respectable simply because it is not a reskin made to fool social climbing middle aged women.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    "Incessant picking"? If that is what you call an attempt to ask someone to clarify a post that seems contradictory to what he/she just said, then so be it.

    But realize just because you won't treat the Genesis seriously because it has that "swoopy H" on it, doesn't mean others won't disagree. No need to slam them because they don't agree with you, now is there? Some of us (like the thousands who are driving a Genesis now) buy a car because we like the car, not because of the $2.98 badge on the trunk lid.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,162
    Yes, so be it. The badge itself does more damage than the name, simply because it is a remnant from a poorer time. The badge itself moreso than the brand name is always what I have questioned. It's a 90s throwback, and the 90s for Hyundai were like the late 70s for the big Japanese competition. Let's face it, the other makers with upmarket brands created for the NA market have better histories and track records than Hyundai. A Genesis brand would be ideal given the history of the market, but at least make a better looking H for the car.

    I have never debated the merits of the Genesis itself - no doubt it is a very competent car, but the badging and brand strategy (not the same thing) can and will be questioned. Not everything Hyundai does is golden, far from it. Perhaps those who defend this strategy should go vote with their wallets and buy a new Genesis ;)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    At least I have driven the Genesis... have you? And if I were in the market for a $30k+ sedan, it would be at the top of my list. But my needs, and mostly my budget, are more plebian right now. In a few years, with the kids gone (and expenses reduced), maybe...

    If redesigning the H badge will mean a big increase in sales for the Genesis and other Hyundai models, then by golly they should do it immediately. That's a no-brainer. If it would actually work. And while Hyundai is off doing that, GM, Ford, and Chrysler should redesign their badges also, since they are remnants from a poorer time and by doing so they could effect turn-arounds of their companies without the huge government bailouts, layoffs, and other painful steps they are taking right now.

    In case you wondered... ;)
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,162
    Why would I want drive the Genesis? Something of that dynamic might appeal to me in 20+ years, but not now. Although it could be a good used deal in a few years, especially if aftermarket grille packages hit the market :P ...so maybe I'd look at one sooner for a fancy commuter, should I live a greater distance from work then.

    The emblems of the big 2.5 also hearken back to a richer time, and the big 2.5 are trying to draw up some heritage-based patriotism to spur sales. I will say the Buick logo is kind of lame, anyway. But it still doesn't seem as Wally-World-ish as the swoopy H, at least not to my eyes.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    The emblems of the big 2.5 also hearken back to a richer time,...

    Unfortunately, that "richer" time is at least two generations ago. About the only buyers who still remember that "richer" time are... Buick buyers! Oh wait, they have a lame badge. :sick:

    Bottom line: if there was ANY chance changing the swoopy H would significantly increase Hyundai's sales, Hyundai would have taken that step long ago, in a heartbeat. It's just not that easy.
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