Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?

1…2930323435…142

Comments

  • cviz821cviz821 Member Posts: 12
    if you don't like the swoopy H you can change the badging like some of us Genesis Owner's have:

    image

    image

    image
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,162
    Yes, my bad, Hyundai is acting with perfect planning and logic, as always. How dare I question their strategy ;)

    It might be more about longterm image than short term sales. As the price goes up, image counts for something.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,162
    Not bad. Is there one for the steering wheel, too?
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    I just don't get your objections to the Hyundai badge, and I think your take on it is over the top-- and backwards.

    Which comes first, the car or the badge? Every famous badge I know of was made famous by the cars wearing it, not the other way around. Hyundai is attempting to do the same thing. Why is it OK for the rest of the luxury car manufacturers to make their badge famous and recognizable by building great cars, but not Hyundai?

    I think Hyundai has thought about spinning off an upscale division, but decided to work hard and make their current brand acceptable to upscale, quality conscious buyers. I think they have made great strides in the past 3-4 years. They have come from an unpronounceable name with a reputation for making econo-boxes, to a household name with a growing reputation for quality and reliability.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    You can question anything you want. You don't even have to be logical or consistent in how you go about it. That's what makes America great. :)

    That Genesis badge on the trunk lid looks cheap to me, like it's made of chromed plastic. But another great thing about America is that folks can stick anything they want on their cars. That badge probably upped the resale value of the car by, what would you estimate, maybe 10%? Or maybe not.
  • joshuagjoshuag Member Posts: 92
    Everyone is talking about the swoopy H, and I went and looked at a Genesis and I didn't notice if it even had a H on the car, or a Hyundai badging anywhere on the car. But, I don't think that is going to matter because people are going to find out what it is anyway. And when they find out, truly I don't think it is going to matter because it is really a beautiful car for the money.

    As for the question as to whether there is room for Hyundai in the luxury car segment. The answer is I dont think so right now. I think they need a little more time in the market building high quality beautiful cars for a great price. They need to be building these cars long enough that when people here the word Hyundai they don't think of a rusty old Excel.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Remember, Lexus had a lot of naysayers in 1990 as well.

    I'm not saying Gensis is the same as the 1990 LS400, but it's definitely a step in the direction they want to be heading in.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,162
    Yes, one who lumps the ES in with the Genesis in some bizarre comparison certainly has a right to lecture others about logic and consistency...

    I forgot, according to the Hyundai fanboys here, the swoopy H can do no wrong, everything is done with logic and reason, the pink of perfection in the automotive realm, and to question the actions of these automotive gods is akin to spitting on the pope ;)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    If there is no room for Hyundai in the luxury car segment, how do you explain that the Genesis sedan is already outselling some of its more established competitors after being on the market for only about 6 months?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,162
    It's nice that you feel that way. As someone who worships at the altar of the swoopy H, I wouldn't expect otherwise.

    Toyota remade it's badge into the belt buckle we see now, right around the time Lexus hit the market, the bigger better 92 Camry hit the market, and the whole organization was ambitiously moving up. It's not a coincidence.

    "Why is it OK for the rest of the luxury car manufacturers to make their badge famous and recognizable by building great cars, but not Hyundai? "

    Hyundai is a luxury car manufacturer?
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Another automaker that changed their badge in the recent past was Oldsmobile. We all know what that change did for them.

    It's not the badge... it's the cars. A new badge won't help one bit if people don't want to buy your cars. Toyota already had a well-established reputation for quality cars and strong sales when they changed their badge. Do you think when Toyota came out with the new badge, buyers suddenly thought, "Oooh, I like that new badge much better than the old Toyota emblem! I wasn't considering Toyota before but now with that new badge, I am going to have to check them out." Yeah, right.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,162
    Olds had a foot in the grave even then...

    Old memories can hurt attempts at improving an image even when the cars are a thousand times better than a mere 20 years ago. Why would Toyota change its badge if not trying to improve image? It's a subtle, perhaps even subconscious ideal.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Toyota already had a well-established reputation for quality cars and strong sales when they changed their badge

    That pretty much describes most Hyundais nowadays.

    The Sonata was Consumer Reports most reliable car in their survey recently, #1, ahead of all Lexus models.

    The extended warranty strategy worked to improve their image. People do not even remember the Excel, even if you do.

    They still have weaker cars in the lower price segments but again, you gotta start somewhere, why not at the top?

    Sales have been growing, too.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Maybe Toyota created the oval badge because it didn't have a badge before--just "TOYOTA" on the back of its cars. So they thought, "Hmmm, Lexus has a badge so maybe we should give Toyota a badge too, somewhat similar in design but different, to be consistent and connect our two different units."
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I remember the Excel because I was driving during those days, but I don't let those memories of those cars from a generation ago convince me that Hyundai's cars are horse manure now. I have over eight years of Hyundai ownership experience and lots more driving experience of Hyundais, plus other info like the CR stats you mentioned, to give me a more accurate picture of where Hyundai is TODAY.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Me too. They were $4995 new, remember that? :D

    Of course all you had to do was wait 2 years, they were worth $2000, but they already had rust on them.

    To be fair, what did people expect for $4995? You had to spend $10-11 grand, at least, to get even a good compact car.

    Nothing at all in common with Hyundai's lineup today, IMHO. Except maybe the low price (even then, not as low as the Excel).
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Yes, one who lumps the ES in with the Genesis in some bizarre comparison certainly has a right to lecture others about logic and consistency...

    Since you were the one who brought the Lexus ES into this thread, you are saying then that gives you the right to lecture us about logic and consistency? :confuse:
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Actually, in today's dollars, some of Hyundai's cars, specifically the Accent, are about the same price as the Excel. Pretty amazing when you compare what you could get in 1986 to what you can get today for basically the same bucks. :)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Accent exists just so they can say they have the lowest priced car.

    It's existence is definitely an obstacle for the Genesis' image.

    But so is the A-class for any AMG or S-class.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Cheap chromed plastic or not, it still looks a billion times better than the "swoopy H." Kia made the same mistake with the Amanti. It looks nice until you see the Kia oval which simply screams "CHEAP!!!"
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Lots of poseurs out there. They'd rather have a Mercedes or a Lexus, etc. but they are too poor or cheap to buy one.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    Good try, but if you check my posts, I'm the guy who refuses to bow to any badge. According to your posts, you are the guy who has a fixation on badges. How bizarre. :D

    Owners of other luxury cars are liking the Genesis, saying it stacks up well with other luxury cars they have owned. That's the ultimate testimonial, because there is probably little bias. How can you argue with that?

    Why is it I don't remember ever seeing a badge on the Genesis? ;)
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    What did Toyota's old logo look like? Anybody have any pics? It must've been pretty forgettable. Nissan still uses the old Datsun "hamburger." Honda's logo has been pretty consistant. Mazda had a pretty ugly logo until they changed it about 10 - 15 years ago.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Why/how is it any different than Honda's H or Mazda's M?

    I dunno, just asking.

    To me it's a just a fairly generic letter. Honda's H is not skewed so they probably did that just to avoid litigation.

    I don't see that as cheap, though.

    Now *this* BYD logo screams cheap:

    image
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,162
    In the 80s Toyota had one that looked like a ship or a Viking boat or something, I remember it vaguely. They must have had something built around a T at some time, too.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Hyundai's actually looks good in 3D:

    image

    though in 2D is definitely does not look nearly as good:

    image

    Do you feel like the chrome 3D logo looks cheap? I don't...

    The 2D one, sure.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,162
    I have a fixation on bad marketing ideas, bad promotion, and poor images of the past.

    Yeah, the Genesis is just walking away with the "luxury" market.

    Can Hyundai do any wrong? The fanboys here are hilarious. Hyundai dealers maybe?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,162
    And you first brought the Avalon and Maxima into the thread, which is not logical or consistent. Me adding another model to those which are overpriced somehow makes me worse? You then tried to compare the ES to the Genesis in terms of respect, which is ridiculous.
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    IMO the truth is Hyundai NEEDS to have a separate brand for a luxury division, particularly if it wishes to enter US market. Even Toyota with 20 years of stellar reputation in the luxo market with the Crown line (Royal, Majesta, Dinasty, etc...) still needed to create Lexus brand (remember that Lexus was initially a US only brand). It sold well in the early days even though those in the know realize perfectly that they were just rebadged Toyota luxury sedans.

    In reality Hyundai still doesn't have customer service, image and products worth of true luxury class. Product pales in comparison with luxury competitors like Infiniti M and Lexus GS. Price-value means little in this class, as shown by Acura RL's horrific sales figure. Service isn't up to standard yet (experience will fix this imo), and image will improve along with time and service quality.

    Hyundai was being hasty at first, positioning the Gen to challenge the midsize luxury market. Then it wisen up, chosing to move up to near luxury class first and compete with the likes of ES and Maxima. I believe Hyundai's making sure not to make the same mistake VW did (can you say Phaeton???)

    I'm not saying Hyundai has no chance, I'm just saying Hyundai needs more time and experience.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    We've debated this before - but the Genesis' prices aren't in luxury territory. Near luxury? Maybe, even then I'm not convinced all models are in near-lux price class, either.

    It is a successful (so far) upscale sedan.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I owned Toyotas back then and all I remember is the word "TOYOTA", just like that, in caps (Bold Arial font I guess), on the car. No Viking ship or anything like that. Like this:

    image

    They had emblems long ago in Japan and for special stuff like racing, but in the U.S. in recent decades it was plain "TOYOTA" until the oval-shaped emblem with the stylized T.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    In the case of a Mercedes, it's more like too cheap to keep it running. :)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Avalon and Maxima are in the same price range as the V6 Genesis. CR for one groups them together for comparison. Some of the auto mags also, e.g. a direct comparison in C/D of the Genesis and Avalon. I guess you can write them a letter and tell them how logical and inconsistent they are.

    And it was you who said you don't respect the Lexus ES because it's a gussied-up Camry, or words to that effect. I simply pointed out that is inconsistent with your view that a badge makes all the difference.
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    There's been quite a confusion on which make-models are competing with genesis.
    Earlier Hyundai positioned Genesis as contender for midsize luxury class, meaning it overconfidently chose Lexus GS, Infiniti M, MB Eclass adn the likes as enemies. Bad choice.
    Then Hyundai officially moved down to easier preys, the near luxury class. It's less crowded, established names are few, and IMO only Lexus ES (for brand catchet) and Buicks (for customer loyalty) pose a challenge. Chrysler's immensely popular 300 is dying and customer confidence for the brand has fallen down the pit. This class is the perfect spot to gather experience and raise the brand's image (hey Lexus Acura and even Audi used to roam here).
  • JozzJozz Member Posts: 9
    Well, if you prefer throwing around labels...

    With better values around, Lexus is for suckers, Mercedes is for stupid suckers, and the most stupid suckers are the proud ones.

    #1657 of 1671
    Re: First time poster here [backy] by lemko
    Jan 14, 2009 (10:22 am)

    Lots of poseurs out there. They'd rather have a Mercedes or a Lexus, etc. but they are too poor or cheap to buy one.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,162
    Emblem from a 1984:

    image
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,162
    Anyone who doesn't buy a Hyundai is a sucker or a poseur. The swoopy H is where it's at. Now that they have destroyed the cred of the Japanese, BMW and MB better watch their backs...
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,162
    Yeah, RWD sedan with available V8 vs deluxe Camrys made to appeal to the 50+ crowd...there's some kind of disconnect there.

    The market obviously respects the ES, would it feel likewise if it had the Toyota belt buckle? I wouldn't bet on it. The badge indeed makes the difference for that car - to the mass market. Not all of us think as it does.
  • cviz821cviz821 Member Posts: 12
    Yes, there is two options for the steering wheel. You can place an emblem over the swoopy H like this :

    image

    or replace the Airbag:

    image
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,162
    First one looks pretty cheapo, but the second one is convincing. Nice to see consumers doing what the carmaker maybe should have done itself.
  • cviz821cviz821 Member Posts: 12
    Checkout this link and view the comparsion photos of the Hyundai Genesis and Lexus 460. Unfortunately, the Genesis photos are of a V6 w/ Premimum Pkg and not the V8 w/ Tech package which is very simular to the Lexus 460

    Genesis - Lexus Photos
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    With better values around, Lexus is for suckers, Mercedes is for stupid suckers, and the most stupid suckers are the proud ones.

    This is the most pathetic comment I've ever heard. If you don't like it, then dont, but please don't start calling names on other people's choices.

    Mercedes, Lexus, Audi and the likes have things Hyundai doesn't have yet:
    1) Luxury quality product
    2) red carpet customer service
    3) reputation - image, you name it.
    Except for number 3, which is debateable, you can't deny that Genesis is still inferior to the big names. Time and experience will fix this like I said.
  • rhduke00rhduke00 Member Posts: 129
    So does this Bentley owner

    image
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    3) reputation - image, you name it.
    Except for number 3, which is debateable, you can't deny that Genesis is still inferior to the big names. Time and experience will fix this like I said.

    Yes I can deny it.

    Audi, MB, and BMW have a horrible reputation high maintenance costs. Things like engines blowing, transmission problems, fancy mirrors leaking and ruining the carpets, wiring problems, you name it. People are so blinded by the badge mystique they can't see the reality.

    When a cars fall apart like the above, it would be nice to have a 10/100 warranty. Sorry to say you won't be getting one. In my opinion, luxury car owners shouldn't be treated that way.

    @rhduke00, if I owned a Bentley, I would definitely put a Hyundai or other handy badge on it. It wouldn't affect the car 1 bit, and would fool stupid thieves that look for expensive cars. :P
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    Audi, MB, and BMW have a horrible reputation high maintenance costs. Things like engines blowing, transmission problems, fancy mirrors leaking and ruining the carpets, wiring problems, you name it. People are so blinded by the badge mystique they can't see the reality.

    The reality you missed is people don't really care about those as long as they get the red carpet treatment. Audis are really popular in my area despite the notorious electrical problems in their cars. Why? because the customer service is excellent. Local BMW otoh has been trailing Audi in sales since 2006 due to their crappy service by luxury standard.
    Even lexus has its fair share of problems, but do owners care? Not really, beacuse of the badge? Yes for some, but for many others they know the problem will be handled professionally, quickly, and as hassle free as possible.

    The only thing you point out from so many different things to consider about a luxury car is "reliability" here. Another one is "value". What about: quality, materials, comfort, proper customer service, refinement????
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    if I owned a Bentley, I would definitely put a Hyundai or other handy badge on it. It wouldn't affect the car 1 bit, and would fool stupid thieves that look for expensive cars.

    Rather than smacking the H on the hood it'd be much better to just remove the emblem and leave it blank. :P
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Hmm, you bring up a possible strategy for Hyundai: cut back on product quality and warranty support, and use the savings to fund improvements in dealerships: nicer waiting rooms, white lab coats for all the techs, espresso machines, leather sofas etc. That would put Hyundai more on par with the likes of MB, maybe give Hyundai a fighting chance in the luxury sedan market, yes?
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I thought that logo only appeared on a Celica. Hmmm. It IS a Viking ship. All these years I thought it was a swan.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    The only thing you point out from so many different things to consider about a luxury car is "reliability" here. Another one is "value". What about: quality, materials, comfort, proper customer service, refinement????

    Yes, thanks. Because of Hyundai's excellent record the past 3 years, I sort of thought it went without saying. ;)
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    cut back on product quality and warranty support, and use the savings to fund improvements in dealerships: nicer waiting rooms, white lab coats for all the techs, espresso machines, leather sofas etc. That would put Hyundai more on par with the likes of MB, maybe give Hyundai a fighting chance in the luxury sedan market, yes?

    Uh, not really. What they need is experience and money, both. Money doesn't seem to be an issue given the company's success. Experience is lacking though.

    What needs to be done: invest money in product development, material development, dealerships, and customer service. It has to be all of them, not 1 or 2. Yes Hyundai can cut down the 10yr warranty a bit and allocate the money elsewhere.

    Because of Hyundai's excellent record the past 3 years, I sort of thought it went without saying

    Hyundai's 3 years of excellent records in what? In reliability, value and warranty, yes that goes without saying.
    In regular class customer service, quality materials and refinement, good enough already. In luxury class? Still a long way.

    Easy example: take the plastic bits and metal or wood trims used in the Gen's cabin and compare them next to a Lexus GS or ES (luxury standard). Next, compare them to Maxima's or Buick LaCrosse's (upscale standard). About on par with the upscale class and still way below luxury class. Need I say more?
Sign In or Register to comment.

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles