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Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?

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  • I guess it depends on owners experience. I've got a friend with a '99 E320, over 100K miles and have only performed maintenance and wear and tear on the car. Another friend with a '06 E350 over 50K miles and only regular maintenance. I chose the E350 over Genesis for about the same money.

    I can't imagine the statement about used MB costing the same over time as a new one. We're talking $20K+ right?

    I like the Genesis. Really nice car for Hyundai. I've spent decades admiring MB and am glad to be at a point in my life to be able to get one. Maybe my kid can have the same admiration with Hyundai when she's my age.
  • bobadbobad Posts: 1,587
    Well, we can trade anecdotes all day, so I won't take up your argument. Go price some parts, repair costs, and reliability records. They tell me that used German makes are very risky.
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Posts: 1,491
    Uh that depends on how you define risky.

    Electricals and electronics? Yeah German cars are as reliable as glass slippers.
    Powertrain? Nope, when properly taken care of those engines last forever.
    Price for repair and maintenance? I won't say anything :blush:
  • While Autoweek, Sep. 7, had a very favorable review in the Sep. 7 issue, they recommended ride and suspension improvements. Sorry, Backy, et.al.
    The class to which the Equus aspires is one that is fairly conservative as to exterior appearance. For example, they have few, if any, flashy colors and very moderate use of chrome and “bling” on the exteriors.
    Eliminate the license plate bump out, appendages under headlights, bright chrome wheels and hood ornament. Maybe, remove some of the other chrome trim. This is not a 1958 Buick.
    The backseat amenities should be an option as many people will not want them. It is doubtful that families with teenagers or empty nesters will want to spend a lot of money on them.
    The power door system is probably of little value to most people and may even be dangerous based on reports I have read.
    Any radar cruise control should have an off switch so that standard cruise control can be used. The systems are just not that good.
    Above all, fix the suspension and ride.

    Equus holds a lot of promise and Hyundai is definitely on the way up. It's biggest advantage will be the lower cost. Having looked at MB E, Lexus LS and Audi A6 recently, Hyundai has more for less, but in "badge power," it won't win and wouldn't even with a separate luxury brand and for many in this class, that's what counts.
    The Genesis is still on my short list, but may wait for the second year Equus. LS and A6 are pretty much off the list now. :)
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,728
    Why are you sorry? :confuse:
  • That should be obvious to everyone, shouldn't it? :confuse:
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,922
    I guess we are all wondering why he would be apologizing. Do you know?

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,728
    I for one have no idea why he would feel an apology is necessary because an auto magazine recommends improvements in a car, e.g. the Genesis. That happens in almost every car review I see. For example, in the latest C/D, they trashed the $59k Lexus IS F for its "harsh" ride and loud exhaust, asserting that Lexus needs a good suspension consultant to "fix" the car and some way to tune down the exhaust note. (Lexus for its part claims "its sophisticated sport-tuned suspension offers improved body control without degrading ride quality"). Yet some of their testers didn't seem to mind the ride or exhaust noise. Shows again that one driver's rough-riding, noisy car is another's fun-to-drive sporty car.
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Posts: 1,491
    This is the way reviews are supposed to be. More criticism the better. Gives manufacturers, any of them, homeworks to do to make better cars.

    When reviews are filled with praise and no complaints or critics it's a sign that they're not being serious IMO.

    Critics are good.
  • Anytime I have mentioned anything negative about Hyundai in the past, you (and others) jumped me.
  • bobadbobad Posts: 1,587
    This is the way reviews are supposed to be. More criticism the better. Gives manufacturers, any of them, homeworks to do to make better cars.

    When reviews are filled with praise and no complaints or critics it's a sign that they're not being serious IMO.

    Critics are good.


    True, I agree 100%. That's a large part of the reason for car forums. However when someone complains and makes their complaint perfectly clear, that's enough, don't you think? When they keep harping endlessly on the same thing over and over, on every forum in the world, it makes me doubt their objectivity, and/or think they are taking some manner of revenge. If you repeat a half truth 1000 times, it can easily be mistaken for the whole truth. I don't think we should encourage or enable anyone to do that.

    Happy Labor Day folks! BBQ is on the menu!
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,728
    If you are expecting everyone in this forum to agree with every stance you take, you are operating under a misconception re what these forums are all about.

    And if you consider comments that don't agree with your position to be "jumping" on you, well, that's your problem, sir. Maybe if you tone down the snipes, e.g. people who don't agree with you "can't learn", it would be a more pleasant discussion and we could all agree or disagree respectfully with each other.
  • toyetoye Posts: 351
    I would more apt to believe the critizism of the Genesis from an owner than a non owner. Personally my Genesis rides nicely and what I expected it to be.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,728
    That is an excellent point. I just went through the owner reviews on the Genesis sedan here at Edmunds.com. Out of 165 reviews to date, 11 noted as a significant issue for them that the ride was too firm/busy etc. Those 11 include about 8 (or about 5%) who were very adamant that the ride quality is an issue, and 3 who were not as adamant about it but I included them anyway. There were also 2-3 beyond these 11 who noted that the ride could use a "bit" of softening. The 11 were almost evenly divided: 5 for the 3.8, and 6 for the 4.6.

    What I found interesting was that there was an almost equal number of owners who said the ride needed to be firmer/sportier! One said the ride was softer than his wife's Lexus (which he traded for the Genesis). Others said it was softer than BMW and MB, or in between Lexus and BMW.

    What I take from this sample is that the vast majority of people who actually bought a Genesis sedan find the ride quality just fine for them. Maybe they drove the car before they bought it, to make sure the ride was acceptable. And maybe other buyers who drove the Genesis found the ride to be too firm (or soft even!) for their taste and passed, for that or other reasons.

    Hyundai has an interesting challenge, if they are in fact going to adjust the suspension tuning on the Genesis sedan for 2010. They need to do just enough to please the owners/buyers who find the ride too firm, while not making it too soft.

    I recommend that anyone interested in buying the Genesis sedan read through those owner reviews. They are quite useful in terms of what the owners like, and what they would change. One of the most-often mentioned improvements was adding a cooled passenger seat (which is an odd omission on a car like this, I think). And some owners like the car just fine, but would like the dealer experience improved or the Genesis to be sold under its own brand--topics we have discussed extensively here.
  • toyetoye Posts: 351
    The Genesis brand will come sooner than later. This time last year we thought Hyundai might bring in the Equus in 2012 or 2013. Now that has been moved up to 2010. I had the pleasure to sit in the Equus last weekend for an hour and was blown away. A customer in the showroom asked why was a disguised 7 series BMW being featured in a Hyundai showroom. I told them this is the future flagship of the new Genesis brand made by Hyundai. He couldn't believe what he was seeing. A article somewhere on the internet showed a picture of both a prototype of 2011 Genesis and Equus with very similar grills anther indication that the Genesis brand name is coming. We will know their intentions by next spring. As far as dealership is that too will be addressed probably with duo dealerships to start and Genesis dealerships in 3-5 years. My guess anyway. Have any of you seen the pictures of the new 2011 Sonata, WOW!! This company just continues to amazes me. :shades:
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,728
    Yes, I think once Hyundai has more than one sedan model to offer in a luxury brand, and now that the Genesis sedan has had some time to provide a "halo" effect to the Hyundai brand, a separate brand name ala Genesis makes sense. If that happens, it will be interesting to see how Hyundai implements it. Will it be with existing Hyundai dealers, maybe in a separate part of the dealership, who have met certain standards, or stand-alone dealerships ala Lexfincura? (Although not all Lexfincura dealerships are stand-alone.)

    Once the new front-drive Hyundai coupe is introduced, that also frees up the Genesis coupe to move to a new brand, as the entry-level model ala Integra and G20.

    Yep, that 2011 Sonata is pretty sharp, I think. I am wondering if it will sound the death knell for the Azera? I think Hyundai could sell those new, fully-loaded Sonatas for the price of today's Azera, if the quality is there.
  • toyetoye Posts: 351
    The jury is still out with the Azera... I loved it when it came up but I feel that Hyundai hit such a homerun with the Genesis and going for a homerun with the Sonata that there may be no place for the Azera to go. My gut feeling is that the new Sonata will replace the Azera in US. It will be such a step ahead of the present one, which was such a step ahead of the previous Sonata. I think the next generation Verzcuz will also come under the future Genesis nameplate as well.
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,922
    I agree that a separate Genesis Brand channel will be launched at some point. Hyundai is in the same position that Toyota was in 20 years ago. They know they are producing some of the finest cars in the world but they get little respect in the U.S. and have to discount their prices to increase sales.

    The real reason Toyota started their Lexus division in the U.S. was so that they could raise prices and increase profit margins. A very savvy move that Hyundai would do well to copy.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • toyetoye Posts: 351
    Good point..unlike american car companies Hyundai is pouring millions and millions into research and development for years. Only now are we seeing their hard work and dedication... Just look the Genesis, Equus, 2011 Sonata, new Tucson... Heads above anything they have done in the past. They are muscling their way to the top, even in uncertain times and taking on competition that just a few years ago would have been laughable
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,728
    That makes sense, re next-gen Veracruz moving to the premium brand. It will need an SUV, and today the Veracruz isn't differentiated enough from the Santa Fe IMO. If that happens, the new brand could have four vehicles from the get-go... more than the Japanese premium brands started with I think.
  • toyetoye Posts: 351
    I lot wonderful things were said about the Genesis Coupe. But one thing that did disappoint me was the interior. Although nice it didn't give me the "WOW' factor when I laid eyes for the first time on the interior of the Sedan. The GPS system will be soon available and that will upgrade the interior and increase sales. Assuming Genesis becomes a brand I suspect a luxury version of the coupe will be developed. A couple of co workers have bought the Coupe (first time Hyundai owners) and couldn't be happier
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,728
    It wouldn't take much to spruce up the interior a bit. I don't see a need for major tweaks to the coupe to fit into the premium brand. A more powerful V6 could be offered, for example.
  • toyetoye Posts: 351
    Perhaps a V-8 (they couldn't fit Tau into present coupe)
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,728
    I suppose there are some who think the coupe must have a V8. I'm not one of them. There's plenty of headroom in the V6 architecture. Also, moving the coupe to the luxury brand will pit it more against the likes of the 370Z and G37 than the US V8 coupes.
  • I just read in my local paper's auto section yesterday that Genesis gets an 8 speed tranny for 2011. Assume that probably means also the sheet metal change?
  • The newpaper article said the Azera will stop production. Also, Hyundai's minivan will also stop production. Don't remember what the name of the car is because I don't pay attention to minivan news.
  • 101649101649 Posts: 192
    Isn't there a Genesis forum out there....Take all this except the revelant Azera posts there.
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Posts: 1,491
    When they keep harping endlessly on the same thing over and over, on every forum in the world, it makes me doubt their objectivity

    I agree. Though sometimes people have the tendency to spread complaints to the whole universe for reasons I dont really understand myself, but it's out there and it happens. I do make an exception, if someone's asked, then it's only natural to answer. Just keep it clear and go easy on the temper when making the comments.

    A word on the upcoming Tucson: while I'll reserve most comments until I try it myself, I can comment on the looks: better but still off. I can see the resemblance to CX-7 and some Ford products right away, and not in a good way.
    In comparison, the SantaFe has eery resemblance to VW Touareg and Infiniti FX. However the result is good looking and nicely proportioned. Tucson isn't doing a good job so far, though Veracruz is even worse.
  • This is what I mean by being jumped on every time you relay NEW information from reliable, objective professional sources. If you look at my posts objectively, you will see that I always cite a professional source which has new review/information.
    On the other hand, none of my attackers has ever contradicted what the reviewers said in their articles. NEVER!
    Make a less than positive post and you get attacked. Never fails.
    Why should I not be allowed to express my opinion, especitally when my detrators express theirs endlessly about minutae?
    Appreciate Backy spending time to look at all owner posts, but as most of us have learned, that is not the most objective source. The posts are generally too new and many people use them to confirm their purchase decision was a good one. I did too when I first bought my Azera-read my 2007 posts. Out of all the Hyundais purchased, how many millions of owners never post on Edmunds?
    BTW, this topic is about whether or not Hyundai is ready for the luxury market, not just about Azeras. :)
  • bobadbobad Posts: 1,587
    Appreciate Backy spending time to look at all owner posts, but as most of us have learned, that is not the most objective source. The posts are generally too new and many people use them to confirm their purchase decision was a good one

    True,,, but professional reviews can also be taken out of context to validate any complaint. Backy has pointed out clear examples of it lately.

    Bob, we all know you are bitterly disappointed with your Azera's ride. I sincerely wish we could make it better for you. Since that's impossible to do, maybe you can do something for us. ;)

    Happy Labor Day!
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