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Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?

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Comments

  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    It's fine for car makers to make 33% profit, and it's their right. But it's our right to not participate in their games.
    sounding like you are begrudging a manufacturer's profit at some level you deem excessive. That kind of thing is certainly your right simply because it is your money - but I am curious- what happens when the Indians (and Chinese) get over here and expose the fact that those horrendous profit margins have been made by supposedly virtuous Hyundai for years and years. Imagine that, Hyundai's been ripping you off - maybe you should demand a rebate NOW ;)
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    From an accounting perspective I cannot imagine any manufacturer making that kind of gross per unit
    actually direct costs (material and labor) tend to be a lot less than that - it is costs like administration/advertising/warranty/utlilites/taxes/health and retirement programs etc. and other indirect costs that might leave a 3% NET out of a maybe 50% gross. And if you are unlucky enough to be burdened with nasty labor contracts as well as being decidedly top heavy - then we all know what happens. :cry:
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,324
    they cater more specifically to those that want the best - and are willing to pay for it.

    I really don't know if it is the best, talking to many owners of those cars (both here and in real life) and they seem far more prone to issues than the more "mainstream" cars.

    If I can get well over 100K trouble free miles from a $12K Hyundai I better well be able to get it on a $60K Benz.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    If I can get well over 100K trouble free miles from a $12K Hyundai I better well be able to get it on a $60K Benz
    would be nice if that's the way it worked but the opposite is more likely the case. Murphy's law if you will - the more complicated anything is the more likely it is to break. The recurring problem in particularily the German premium brands lately - electronic gremlins in all these advanced electronically controlled performance and safety enhancement systems.
    As it this would apply to that $12k Hyundai? Expect better reliability from that than you would from a $45k Genesis. Reliability, quality, and technology are often unrelated.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,905
    And if you are unlucky enough to be burdened with nasty labor contracts as well as being decidedly top heavy - then we all know what happens.

    Yep... present day GM ;)

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    edited February 2010
    If I can get well over 100K trouble free miles from a $12K Hyundai I better well be able to get it on a $60K Benz.

    Good luck! :)

    Cars that force you to bring it back and forth to the dealer and spend big bucks are not luxurious.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    Here are a group of recent video clips from Hyundai America's CEO.

    http://www.hyundaimedialive.com/sonata/webcast.php

    John Krafick in billing Equus (In clip no. 2) as a "Customer service, customer satisfaction halo car". That should make the service divas happy, and make launching a luxury division less likely.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    The Equus does sounds more like an incubator car as opposed to using it for a luxury division.

    "Another big move for Hyundai comes with the 2011 Equus, a full-blown luxury sedan to challenge establishment stalwarts such as the BWM 7 Series, Lexus LS and Mercedes S-Class. Launching later this year, Krafcik said the Equus is going to be the torch-bearer for a new level of customer-interaction strategies for Hyundai.

    The not-inexpensive Equus will be "a customer-satisfaction halo for the [Hyundai] brand," Krafcik said. The customer-interaction aspects surrounding the launch of the Equus in the U.S. market will be "a pretty interesting experiment," Krafcik promised, adding, "stay tuned -- it's going to be pretty cool."

    Hyundai Spending Big To Launch 2011 Sonata; Promises Unique "Experiment" With Equus (AutoObserver)
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    edited February 2010
    I'm hoping one of you guys will be an early adopter and let us know what the "customer satisfaction/interaction" program is all about. :)

    It will be fun to speculate on, and get the real story in dribbles until September.
  • toyetoye Member Posts: 351
    According to Fintail I should be the one to go to on having the information about the upcoming launch of the Equus. LOL
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    Unless they facelift that thing, I don't think even you can spin it into the S/7er/LS competitor the bandwagoning media is already claiming.

    As it is, it looks like the prestige car for someone who runs a third world sweatshop.
  • acdiiacdii Member Posts: 753
    I am going there tomorrow, should be interesting since all the mentioned lines will be there to compare to. If I remember, I will bring my camera.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    As it is, it looks like the prestige car for someone who runs a third world sweatshop.

    That's usually a bigger MB or BMW.

    Seriously, I doubt the Korean model will be released stateside without a facelift. Hyundai's California designers are on a roll, so you can bet it wll be fresh.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    I dunno...that Equus gives me the "copycar" vibe in some ways.

    Well, IMO, the Genesis sedan isn't fresh (the coupe is much more so)...so I guess time will tell.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    Well, IMO, the Genesis sedan isn't fresh

    You show me any normal car (not a show car), and I'll show you styling cues that have already been used and re-used. There are only about 100,000 permutations, ind combinations, and all have been used. So your "isn't fresh" isn't fresh. :blush:
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    edited February 2010
    That's a line used by apologists or fanboys who don't want to admit that Asian makes in general over the past decade or two have not been good at creating original styling themes.

    Would the Genesis sedan use a derivation of the Hofmeister kink if not for BMW? The only original part on it is the Star Trek grille.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    You must realize that the reason Hyundai decided to use that grille style is that they wanted everyone who saw it to shout, "Genesis! I want it!!"

    If you don't understand that comment, you have no business referring to Star Trek in any discussion of the Genesis. ;)
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    edited February 2010
    if I'm not mistaken, the Genesis was no unstable it blew itself up in Star Trek 3! :P ;) lol!

    so I don't know if you really want to use a Star Trek analogy here, because it doesn't bode well then for the Genesis by Hyundai! ;)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    edited February 2010
    You are mistaken. You too have no business making any reference here to Star Trek, as your previous comment proves. Better stick to cars. :P
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    edited February 2010
    take a chill pill backy, was just kidding around :D ; you really need to lighten up ;) ;

    in fact if you read what I said carefully, I was saying NOT to use Star Trek as an analogy in describing the Genesis because Genesis in Star Trek Exploded, and the last time I checked I haven't seen any Genesis's falling apart or exploding so I think your okay :D !
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    edited February 2010
    I thought we were lightening up. :surprise:

    Genesis the device was designed to explode. Genesis the car was not. And, there's a few other differences...

    Styling is subjective, though. Obviously enough people like the styling of the Genesis sedan to buy one.

    As for lack of unique styling from Asian automakers... let's play "find the BMW" in this one:

    http://green.autoblog.com/2010/01/05/detroit-2010-hyundai-blue-will-phev-concept- /
  • tuborgp1tuborgp1 Member Posts: 3
    Just ordered a 4.6 with Tech package. Hard to talk to a number of people about luxury model Hyundai. Others understand and are familiar with. Will be hard to have a product line with the Elantra and also the Genesis and Equos and have Joe average not equate the more expensive ones with the cheaper ones.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    edited February 2010
    I'm not worthy of that level of geekiness ;)

    I dunno about that concept car...the slashy side makes me think someone has a crush on Bangle.

    The Genesis coupe has grown on me, I will admit. Its styling is more original and I think better looking than the sedan. It also seems to be a very good value. It even comes in a color I like. I think it's a nicer design than the sedan...although maybe not as much in the "luxury" category.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    I too like the Coupe styling, but not so much the interior. If the interior was nicer, I swear I would get my wife one for a commuter car.
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    sorry many, I must have misunderstood you, my bad! :blush:
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    edited February 2010
    That's the problem, isn't it? If a car is designed around traditional cues, it's impossible to avoid including some that have already been used. If the new design is indeed innovative, hence unfamiliar, it risks being polarizing... some might love it, others might think it's just weird.

    The Genesis coupe that you like has multiple styling cues that have been done before. About the only truly unique element is the droop in the rear side windows. Personally I like the overall styling of the Genesis sedan better than the coupe. The coupe has some nice pieces, especially the rear, but I think the front is pretty ugly. The sedan isn't the most original design ever, but it's clean and classy, with a bit of originality in the grille. It calls out to you, "je'hlu'meH QaQ jajvam".

    :)
  • acdiiacdii Member Posts: 753
    Well I saw the Equus at the CAS today, took a few pictures of it. It has a slight MB look about the trunk, but overall it is a nice looking car, it does exude a sense of luxury to it, but I didnt get a chance to be up close and personal with it. I have a feeling based on past shows, that this model they displayed will be the final product. The Genesis they displayed back on 08 was the model that hit the show room floors later that year. From what I saw, the back seat has more room than a 7 series, has reclining fully adjustable back seats, and some really fine appointments worthy of MB and BMW, fully surpassing Lexus.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    edited February 2010
    Why does "traditional" mean something that mimics a specific other? Why should a new entrant have "traditional" cues? Isn't the car supposed to be a new way of thinking? Does H not hire designers skilled enough to make something that is both original-ish and inoffensive? I think they do have some, and some their other products show it. The coupe is much less derivative than the sedan, and its face, although not classic design, isn't offensive...just odd in that wannabe-aggressive way. The sedan calls out to me "I want to be a 5er"....but does it, really?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    It's not really bad, for the price point especially...get it in leather...what else does wifey want?
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    The sedan isn't the most original design ever, but it's clean and classy, with a bit of originality in the grille. It calls out to you, "je'hlu'meH QaQ jajvam".


    It calls out to me "Do you want to butt heads?"

    That grill does indeed make a very strong statement, but I like the car from stem to stern.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    No. "Today is a good day to buy"... a Genesis.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    edited February 2010
    Why does "traditional" mean something that mimics a specific other?

    What does "tradition" mean, anyway? It means, "an inherited pattern of thought or action; a specific practice of long standing". If a car's styling is traditional, it by definition is going to mimic SOMETHING or other that has gone before it.

    You ask why should a new entrant in the luxury car class have traditional cues? It's because buyers EXPECT that. Name the last luxury car that: a) had truly new, unique styling, no similarity in any way with any other vehicle, and b) sold in any volume. This is clear from your objections over the Genesis' grille, probably the most original part of the car. You've puked all over it. Why I don't know, as I think it's quite striking, but it's clear you don't like it. A good example of why luxury car makers can't stray too far from traditional styling patterns.

    The Genesis is a 4-door luxury sedan with a V8 and RWD. It was designed to have a roomy interior for five, including a generous back seat, a big trunk, and have a relatively low Cd. Those parameters alone dictate a certain overall shape. Then there's the many safety regulations that dictate what can be done with exterior lighting, bumpers, front end height and shape (pedestrian safety), roof pillars (rollover protection). If the windows are too short, visibility suffers and many buyers will shun the car because of that. There's only a handful of ways to pen the intersection of the C pillar with the rear door on a 4-door sedan. One way risks being labeled a BMW copycat; another risks being labeled "ugly like the Azera"; another looks like an old Jag; another offers poor visibility and rear head room; and the last is just plain boring. Any way you do it, someone will jump all over it.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Why should a new entrant have "traditional" cues? Isn't the car supposed to be a new way of thinking?

    Yikes, I'm flashing on a combination Pacer and Aztek. :)

    At least people collect the Pacer.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    No. "Today is a good day to buy"

    My universal translator is on the fritz, again.

    Car designers have my sympathy. Talk about a no-win situation! It's like trying to answer the wife's dreaded question "Does this dress make me look fat?".

    One thing I've learned about styling over the years is, most people go through phases. Often, people don't like great new styles at first. It takes them weeks or moths to take in the whole design, and integrate it into their brain.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Will be hard to have a product line with the Elantra and also the Genesis and Equos and have Joe average not equate the more expensive ones with the cheaper ones.
    Exactly - despitethe availability of 'entry' level products you don't go to a BMW/Lexus/MB/Infiniti etc dealer to buy a cheap car. 30 or 40k yes, but 10k no. In the luxury market perception means a great deal, something the J3 understood when they established their luxury brands 20 years ago. Even within the Genesis 'brand' (if there is any effort to develop one) the pony car competitive Coupe then is possibly a mistake - how can you possibly consider the cheaper Coupe from a luxury brand when the brand itself is far from established. The Equus, if it does make it here, OTH....
    Think the average Joe is a long long long way from equating the Hyundai brand with anything other than inexpensive products. Still believe that the incredulous exclamatory along the lines of 'you paid $40k for a Hyundai?' is something you would hear more often than not - even after taking somebody for a ride in one.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    So true. For example, I really liked the styling of the 1996-2000 Elantra. Almost bought one. When the redesigned 2001 car came out, with totally different styling, I hated the styling at first. But then I started warming up to it, and before long thought it was quite nice, especially the rear (the front styling improved for 2004-6). So I bought one (actually two, bought an '04 hatch later).

    There have been studies of what people consider "beautiful" for people's faces. Guess what? The faces considered most beautiful by the most people are rather bland, without prominent features. My wife calls them "blurry faces." I think that study can be extrapolated to cars, except for those few models that try to stand out with their styling, for whatever reason.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    edited February 2010
    Exactly - despitethe availability of 'entry' level products you don't go to a BMW/Lexus/MB/Infiniti etc dealer to buy a cheap car.

    Not really. Under $20k is pretty "cheap" these days for a new car. A nicely-equipped Elantra will touch $20k, for example. Yet I can go down to my local BMW dealer and buy a new car at that price. It's called the Mini Cooper (base model). It's sold side-by-side with the 7 Series and other luxury cars from BMW, same building, same sales reps. It's impossible to ignore that you are in a BMW dealership when you go shopping for that $20k Mini Cooper. Yet they sell a lot of both the low end cars and the luxury cars out of that building. The only difference with Hyundai is, the Mini Coopers have a "Mini Cooper" badge on them, not a BMW badge. That would be easy for Hyundai to change, if they thought it would make a difference.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    I can't say "traditional" in the context of automotive styling means being directly influenced by a specific competitor.

    Your question is a little funny...there haven't been any "new" competitors in that realm for a couple decades. Some (not all) Lexus and Infiniti models of the early years were actually original, shocking as it may seem.

    Although I don't love the Star Trek grille, the cribbed-from-BMW greenhouse is what looks like the weakest link. Just as the first two major generations of the Lexus LS put me off for their shameless imitating of MB styling themes. MB and BMW were able to be original, why can't anyone else do likewise? Some people lead, some people mimic.

    Do you think the Genesis would have a certain C-pillar if BMW hadn't been using it for 50 years?

    Which amount of Genesis are actually V8? It it more than 1:10?
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    edited February 2010
    I can't say "traditional" in the context of automotive styling means being directly influenced by a specific competitor.

    Prove it.

    Your question is a little funny...there haven't been any "new" competitors in that realm for a couple decades.

    How quickly we forget. Off the top of my head I can think of new luxury sedan designs from MB, BMW, Jaguar, Cadillac, and Porsche within the past several years. Oh, yes... and Hyundai.

    What is so original about MB or BMW designs lately? For example, take the new E Class. The sweep along the top of the sides is exactly the same as seen on the 2004-9 Kia Spectra. The character line on the side has been used by many earlier designs, including the Honda Accord. The C pillar is the last of the options I mentioned earlier--the boring option. Tons of cars have exactly that design--and they did long before MB was popular. The headlamps are dead ringers for the 2006.5-8 Kia Optima. The wheels are generic. And the grille is as gaudy as that of the Equus.

    It's a pretty sad day when multiple details of the latest design from MB resembles outdated Kias.

    image

    image

    image

    image
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    edited February 2010
    "Prove it"

    What kind of "proof" would appease you? What constitutes "proof"? "Prove it" is a very weak rebuttal.

    Which automaker then defines "tradition"? Are you admitting that MB and BMW are such kings of relevancy that they set the standard for new entries?

    Just admit it - Asian makes in recent history do a very poor job at either good or original styling, and H is as guilty as any other. They either mimic, they install hilariously large light clusters as a lazy way to make a new style, or both.

    I can also argue the sweep on the new E is simply an evolution of the lesser and higher sweep seen on the W211 which hit the road in 2002, which is also an evolution from the W210 which hit the road in 1995. The headlights on the new car are certainly an evolution of the W210, which has been copied by many. Also on the new car, the rear fender sweep is a heritage theme from a car that is ~55 years old. But maybe it's really an Asian theme too, copied from a Kia bicycle :P

    Generic stock wheels on a platform that sees taxi duty? Shameful! And nothing is like that Equus grille, it's a wannabe Maybach....with a hilarious hood ornament that would be at home on a Chinese-made luxobarge.

    To see any resemblance between that E and that Kia means one should have their eyesight examined. They are three box sedans, the relation ends there.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Are you admitting that MB and BMW are such kings of relevancy that they set the standard for new entries?

    It appears moreso that Kia is setting that standard, at least wrt the E Class copycat design of the old Optima and Spectra. There's two possibilities here: either MB copied design elements from Kia (which I think you will agree is unlikely), or MB just dipped into the same bin of car design elements that everyone else dips into to come up with the new E Class--and added the signature MB grille. Frankly, everything else on the E Class exterior is warmed-over, many-have-been-there-done-that stuff. That's why it's so hard to pen a new sedan design that is totally unique.

    As for "proof", you implied with your statement that Hyundai intentionally copied design elements from specific competitors on the Genesis sedan. At least that is what I assume you were getting at. If not, please correct me. So, please tell us how you know for a fact that Hyundai's designers intentionally copied design elements from specific competitors for the Genesis. To be a convincing argument, the design element will need to be unique to that competitor.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    A nicely-equipped Elantra will touch $20k, for example. Yet I can go down to my local BMW dealer
    yeah - and a stripper 'unsafe at any speed' Accent can be had for $10k, and a Mini starts at $20k and are extremely hard to buy below $25k. Besides which when was a Mini a BMW?

    BMW is perhaps the definition of a luxury brand, Mini is anything but. And it's not just the $10k Accents that inhibits Hyundai from ever being a 'luxury brand' it is also the usual type of buyers that are shopping cars like that. Somebody shopping what he/she perceives as a luxury car is usually going to be quite uncomfortable in the same dealer as that credit and income challenged guy that's trying to figure out a way to buy his first new car.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    edited February 2010
    Have you priced an Accent lately? Add ABS and automatic to one and you're at $16-17k.

    My local MB dealer also sells Nissans. Not Infinitis... Nissans. In the same building, same showfloor. I suppose those MB buyers get nervous when they see someone (like me for example) looking for a Sentra or Versa.

    It's hard to differentiate between BMW, which according to you epitomizes a luxury brand, and a non luxury brand like Mini when they share the same sales lot, building, service area, waiting area, showfloor, etc. The $19-20k Mini is parked right next to the $60k sedan or SUV. Must be a huge problem for BMW, yes? Or for MB to have its dealers sell $100k cars next to $10k Versas. Oh... looks like it's not.

    Neither is it a problem for Hyundai to sell $40k Genesis sedans alongside Elantras and even (gasp) Accents.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    edited February 2010
    Show me some "proof" that anyone has copied that old Kia. I offered my opinion about the evolutionary bodyside features. There's virtually nothing similar between the cars, almost everything in that MB is derived from previous models.

    MB almost as a rule doesn't introduce an entirely new design unless the model itself is new. It is the king of evolutionary design, one can trace elements back for decades in most of the cars. MB doesn't create random brand new designs, it evolves its own existing designs.

    Yes, the Genesis intentionally apes the E60 5er. Not a bad decision at face value, as that's the segment the car is aimed at. But from a styling standpoint, it leaves something to be desired. Maybe the next version will be more unique. Lexus has moved on and started to make its own designs...H does it for other models...it can in this segment, too.

    image
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  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    It's hard to differentiate between BMW, which according to you epitomizes a luxury brand, and a non luxury brand like Mini
    no, it isn't - one name starts with a 'B' the other a 'M' :P
    It's like saying a Lexus is a Toyota, a Nissan a Infinti etc. If you really think they are, then I guess you certainly don't understand what a 'brand' can mean. Hell, even an ES isn't the same as a Camry, one is a entry level Lexus, the other is simply a well optioned Toyota - all despite all the stuff the 2 cars have in common.
    Today's newpaper has Accents at $9900.00 BTW but also not the point - the point being that Hyundai is wanting to sell $10k cars right next to ones they would like us to believe are 'luxury' with the SAME brandname. Other than being a hard sell, don't believe you'll ever see that happen - unless, of course, Hyundai can manage to get Genesis itself established as a brand in its own right.
  • rlsonlinerlsonline Member Posts: 43
    The answer is no.

    You can not put a Hyundai as a luxury car. It doesn't work. People who can compare a Hyundai to a M-B or a BMW are completely insane.

    Performance, stability, style, price. . .these are all things that go into the word luxury. . .But, the fact is that M-B or BMW are synonymous with luxury. Hyundai is not.

    There is a period on the end of that sentence. They are comparing apples to bacon.
  • j2jj2j Member Posts: 147
    Not only have other Asian makes "borrowed" BMW's Hofmeister kink (Subaru Legacy, Honda Accord, Nissan/Infiniti, etc.) but European manufacturers have as well (VW Passat, Volvo, Renault, etc.).

    As for Mercedes - some of their newer models definitely have elements which resemble a no. of other manufacturers.
  • j2jj2j Member Posts: 147
    The next iteration will have its own design language.

    Hyundai, like other automakers before it, wisely opted for "traditional" luxury styling since prospective purchasers would have trouble buying into a new luxury model (and/or nameplate) and a new, unfamiliar design language at the same time.

    Once brand or model equity has been established - more risk can be taken w/ design (see Infiniti, Acura and Lexus w/ varying degrees of success).
  • rlsonlinerlsonline Member Posts: 43
    If you don't agree, then go up to your neighbor and say "I'm buying a new BMW". . wait for the response. . then say, "I'm buying a new Hyundai". . .wait for the response.

    You test the results!
  • j2jj2j Member Posts: 147
    So the royal family of Japan - who ride in a TOYOTA Century - aren't riding in a "luxury" car?

    And actually, MB and BMW aren't exactly synomymous w/ luxury in Europe as they are here (due to variance in MARKETING) - w/ econobox Mercedes A and B Class and Mercedes taxi cabs everywhere.

    As for BMW, they weren't really seen as a luxury automaker in the US until the late 1980s to early 1990s; and let's not forget, the model which saved BMW was the lowly Isetta (about as small and bare-bones an auto can be).
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