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Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?

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Comments

  • acdiiacdii Member Posts: 753
    Well, when the sheep vote in the people who piss away all that money we are forced to give them in the form of taxes, do you really expect them to? Look at it this way, at least the ones building the cars are still in their own country, using Mexico's resources instead of coming here illegally sucking down on ours!

    If American Union workers would build a decent car, Ford wouldn't need to go outside our borders to have it done. Heck if non Union workers gave a sh*t about the work they did, more cars would be built here.

    All in all, if you look at what is left of US manufacturing, we have less than 1/8 what we had after WWII. The majority has been shipped overseas due to cheap labor, and the products we get now are crap compared to what they used to be. The appliances made in the US are garbage, I have a couple pieces of junk that I bought thinking that they would be good products because they were built here, well, now they collect dust and have been replaced with things made elsewhere, and not from China either.

    In any case, The Ford Fusion that I own is a better built car than the Camry I had. The former, built in Mexico, the latter built in Kentucky.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I think y'all need to take it to Buying American Cars What Does It Mean?.

    Hyundai sales are blowing the doors off. Anyone buying a Genesis? (AutoObserver)
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "The 2011 Hyundai Equus, which will start at $55,000 when it goes on sale in the U.S. in late summer, made its official debut on Thursday at the 2010 New York Auto Show. The Equus is the most expensive Korean vehicle to hit the U.S. market, and whether or not it will be accepted by U.S. consumers will be a critical test for Hyundai."

    Pricey 2011 Hyundai Equus Debuts (Inside Line)

    image
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    If they do nothing to further differentiate it from Hyundai's more mundane offerings (reputations and perceptions) then history will repeat itself. Can you say Phaeton?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Reputation? You must have missed the sentence in my link about Hyundai owners harassing their Toyota driving neighbors about their cars running out of control. :P
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Ugh! Even without that screwball hood ornament and busy grille, it doesn't do anything for me. It all looks like a sloppy afterthought. The hood badge looks like a patch for the holes where the hood ornament was mounted and the grille looks like a poor imitation of a Pontiac's! Try again!
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...is the new Sonata. I saw a new one in the parking lot at work and it is a commendable effort. Camry, you're toast!
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,384
    edited April 2010
    Yeah, the new Sonata is a wonderful looking car in and out. Were the local Hyundai dealer not a swine we could have been tempted.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Hey, look--no hood ornament! Huge disappointment for all those folks looking forward to getting that classy hood ornament on the Equus! ;)

    It's almost Shakespearean... Much Ado About Nothing. :)
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,167
    Or it's been photochopped

    I want to see that new turbo 4 put in an Elantra or something...H needs to show a wild side :shades:
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    10 year warranty wasn't wild enough for you eh?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,167
    I want fun wild, not beige wild :P
  • toyetoye Member Posts: 351
    edited April 2010
    I just came across an article (blog) in the New York Times, written by Jerry Garrett and he basically trashed the new Equus, Sonata Turbo and Hybrid

    http://wheels.blog.nytimes.com/2010/04/01/new-york-auto-show-2011-hyundai-sonata- - -turbo-and-hybrid/

    Even if I were not a fan of a particular automaker I wouldn't trash them as he did in that article.

    I'm very surprised at the New York Times!!!!
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,167
    Link doesn't work for me.

    I saw pics of the upcoming Kia Optima ...looks better than the Sonata IMO,.
  • toyetoye Member Posts: 351
    Hopefully this will work. Just scroll down to the blog by Jerry Garrett

    http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    from Ulrich's comments - same review:
    John Krafcick, Hyundai’s chief executive in North America, said Hyundai would be satisfied with selling 3,000 Equus models a year. People with lifelong aspirations to own a Mercedes or BMW may not be interested, but other affluent people will be, he added. “The people we call the ‘strivers’ need and want that luxury badge, but for the millionaire-next-door buyer, a lot of them got that way by making smart purchases.”
    comment: even if Hyundai finds those 3000 maverick 'millionaires', how does that make Hyundai a player in the luxury end of things? Catering to the 'strivers' and those that 'need' to fulfill their own aspirations is a good part of what paying that extra money for that S, 7, or even LS is all about. Sure the 'millionaires may not be interested in showing off to anybody, but this also assumes that those same folks would be willing to accept something less than the best, when money is no object. I think Hyundai is a victim of some wishful thinking here, not that they are immune to such things?
    from Ulrich:
    the Equus becomes the Volkswagen Phaeton redux: An overreaching and already dated-looking sedan that may finally draw the line on how high the Hyundai name can travel in the market.
    Even ignoring the styling comments - isn't this what we have talked to death on this forum for years now?
    Hyundai does seem to want to ignore history or alternately write their own - and ignore those limtiations that come with the brand conscious American consumer. To think that the Hyundai name has any better perceptions in today's market than VW did a few years ago (when they introduced the otherwise wonderful Phaeton), isn't Hyundai simply fooling (or overestimating) themselves. :confuse:
    The current Genesis sedan avoids many of these issues simply because it is an upscale sedan - and not a luxury one. It is not a competitor, to a Lexus anything (other than possibly the ES), FTM a German anything. The Equus OTH????
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    edited April 2010
    Hyundai does seem to want to ignore history or alternately write their own - and ignore those limtiations that come with the brand conscious American consumer.

    I believe you may be over thinking this. Hyundai is just marketing a nice luxury sedan at a nice price to a market niche they found. Nothing more, nothing less. You can try to make something historical or apocalyptic out of it, but it doesn't work.

    It's not like the old days where manufacturers spent a gazillion dollars for design and tooling, and low sales killed them instantly. Design, tooling, and assembly are all computerized now, and take 1/4 the time, resources, and commitment they used to take. There are no longer huge dedicated production lines, just a few extra dies in the sheet metal shop.
  • acdiiacdii Member Posts: 753
    That's true. Look at how many assembly lines now produce several models at the same time. In Belvidere IL, not only do they produce the Dodge Caliber, they also produce the Jeep somethingorother, on the same line. They didn't expand the plant either to do so. A couple suppliers built new facilities within the same area which cuts down of shipping costs, and make parts more readily available.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,167
    edited April 2010
    I don't find that material to be too objectionable. Some words there that caught my eye:

    "But the over-tall body and Korean home-market styling makes even a Lexus LS look like a Bentley in comparison."..."An overreaching and already dated-looking sedan that may finally draw the line on how high the Hyundai name can travel in the market"...that sounds like me.

    I also think this is somewhat clueless: “The people we call the ‘strivers’ need and want that luxury badge, but for the millionaire-next-door buyer, a lot of them got that way by making smart purchases.” - IMO most "millionaires next door" never spend 55K on a car no matter what it offers. They'll buy it when it is used and priced like a Camcord, or just buy the Camcord itself. Buying a car at that level is never about being "smart" no matter the badge, it's a splurge, that H propagandist needs to admit it. Millionaires next door don't tend to buy fancy cars.

    I think the iPad idea is kind of weird, I thought it might be an April Fool's joke. How many of those things will still be with the car when it is 5 years old? Can't the manual be integrated into the car's hard drive? The Euro-spec 7er I drove had it that way.

    I do like the ambitious customer service ideas that were touted in that article...can the average dealer handle that, or will the Equus only be sold at like one dealer per major market, hand selected and renovated to a higher standard?

    I will say it again, the Optima shown there is much better looking than the Sonata, although Audi wants their wheels from 6-7 years ago back.

    I am most interested in that 2 liter 274hp turbo unit, how it works in the real world. It could be a gem, or could be a mess and make the Sonata an untameable beast...which could be fun too.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    edited April 2010
    I always thought "millionaires next door" drove ordinary cars like four-cylinder Ford, Chevrolets, and Camcords. They are above such luxurious fripperies like leather seating, wood trim, and reverse gears.
  • toyetoye Member Posts: 351
    Fintail.... I wasn't questioning the Equus blog as it was written by a different reporter. The blog that I was referring to was the one about the new Sonata Turbo and Hybrid reported by Jerry Garrett which was further down in the scroll.

    It read like an article that reminded me of you.....just kidding...lol :P
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    It's not like the old days where manufacturers spent a gazillion dollars for design and tooling, and low sales killed them instantly.
    5 years ago is hardly the 'old days' and no VW didn't spend a gazillion dollars on anything, the Phaeton in large part an Audi A8. It failed simply because of the label attached to a price - neither of which matched VW's decidedly more pedestrian image. And this would be different from a $60k Hyundai (or even a $40k one) , how?
    That all said, nothing 'acopcalyptic' if Hyundai sells 0 Equus, just a demonstration to their marketing mavens that mass market mfgrs. (and mass market brandnames) have no place in the luxury market.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    always thought "millionaires next door" drove ordinary cars like four-cylinder Ford, Chevrolets, and Camcords. They are above such luxurious fripperies like leather seating, wood trim, and reverse gears
    would tend to agree with this simply because those same well heeled buyers are also the ones that would likely view the automobile as an appliance. The Equus or even the current top end Gens are hardly appliances.
    Given that those 'millionaires' have no interests in impressing anybody, the only way that the 'millionaire' spends even $60k on a car is when he can also appreciate it for what it is - aka an enthusiast. It appears that the Equus is really not a bunch more than a stretched Gen sedan with a bit more bling. In both cases not anything that an enthusiast would be interested in - for any price. Think Hyundai's anticipations for the Equus border on absurd.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,167
    OK yeah I saw that. This engine is actually the most interesting thing H has mentioned in some time. Its other larger engines are fine I am sure - but they are not performance units. This new big hp turbo sounds like it could be. I am curious as to how it will exist in the real world.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,167
    That's how I see them too. Save and deny themselves, pass the fortune on to some ungrateful kids who will blow it on home theater systems and poorly made boats, and then it's all done. I guess I won't be a millionaire next door :shades:
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    This engine is actually the most interesting thing H has mentioned in some time
    Isn't the 'new' Hyundai 4 banger, the 'World' engine that is shared with Mitsu, Chrysler and others?
    If that's the case, it had better be a damn good base to start with, - forcing too much HP through something good like a Honda 4 banger is entirely different than attempting the same outa that old 2.3 Ford/Mazda 4 banger, foe example. It certainly left much to be desired from a refinement point of view. Drove a CX7 for a few weeks recently and while the vehicle definitely had some power, the engine was rough and 'unrefined'. MPG was seriously overestimated as well -or maybe it was me not being able to keep my right foot from acting up. :blush:
    Can't help but believe that there may be some foundation for Garrett's reservations given Hyundai's history of HP misrepresentations.

    http://www.clubplanet.com/includes/bbs/default.aspx?ref=http://bbs.clubplanet.co- m/useless-blabber/231617-hyundai-reimburse-customers-hp-overstatements.html
  • toyetoye Member Posts: 351
    Autos that were made from 1992 to 2000 1-2 decades ago! WOW! :shades: It seems to me you still have the same mentality that Hyundai had(1992-2000).

    Its time to retire from your ship captain!!!!
  • dean3927dean3927 Member Posts: 80
    ...than any of its rivals":

    http://www.marketwatch.com/story/hyundais-march-performance-obscured-by-rivals-2- 010-04-02?siteid=YAHOOB
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,167
    Yeah, I won't believe it til I see it. I am very curious about a 274hp turbo mated to a car not known for tuned suspension and driving ability. Could be an amusingly dangerous handler.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,384
    On the Millionaire Next Door types - I read the books (to no avail) years ago. The comment there was that they seemed to buy thier cars by the pound - Crown Vics were popular - and keep them forever.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Isn't the 'new' Hyundai 4 banger, the 'World' engine that is shared with Mitsu, Chrysler and others?

    Far from it. The original Theta design was Hyundai's, yes, and they had a partnership with Mitsubishi and DaimlerChrysler (you'll remember them, they also made Mercedes Benzes) so that each of them could build their own version of that design. But DaimlerChrysler is no more, Chrysler has terminated the partnership, and the current Theta II with its 2.0L and 2.4L versions, now with 274 hp (turbo GDI 2.0L) and up to 200 hp (2.4L GDI) are far removed from their distant Chrysler and Mitsubishi cousins.

    If the Theta II isn't smooth enough for you and you want a very smooth engine with lots of power, there's always the 375 hp Tau in the Genesis--one of Ward's Ten Best engines.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...yeah, or they leave it to some middle-aged widow who says, "Thank God that tightwad cheapskate is dead! Now I can live a little and run off with Fabio the landscaper!" There has got to be a nice medium between being a tightwad "millionaire next door" and a prodigal spendthrift wastrel. Both types of people are miserable: one because he's scared of everything and too scared to spend anything and the other because he's self-destructive and lives constantly in crisis.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Shoot, that almost sounds like me! :P
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,167
    edited April 2010
    And neither of the three groups are going to run to buy an Equus, IMHO. It's going to be a tough customer to find, although if it will succeed anywhere in the western world, it will be in NA.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,384
    Ya know, now that you mention it....
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • toyetoye Member Posts: 351
    Remember Hyundai doesn't care about numbers for Equus. If they sell 1000 in the first 12 months they will have met their goal.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    Captain2, the car is already in production in Korea, and already successful enough to stay in production there. If they sell zero in the USA market, there's very little lost-- mostly advertising. Hyundai is taking a very small risk by offering the Equus in the USA, and will not go belly up if it fails.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,922
    Remember Hyundai doesn't care about numbers for Equus.

    I don't believe any company will develop a product, advertise it and "not care" if they sell any. There are still costs for bringing the Equus here that have to be recouped.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • toyetoye Member Posts: 351
    If Hyundai said that they would be satisfied to sell 1000 in the first year their focus is not on numbers but the long term investment and upgrading the Hyundai name recognition. No doubt they will probably lose some money selling the Equus here for the first couple of years. Again think of Toyota in late 80's when they launched Lexus. They lost in the short term but the focus was in the long term and eventually Lexus became a gold mine for Toyota. Will it happen again, this time with Hyundai? Only time will tell.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,922
    Well, then even if its a marketing exercise I still contend that they absolutely care how many they sell. If they don't sell many, they get a good answer on what the public thinks of Hyundai (or what the public will pay for one at least)

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • toyetoye Member Posts: 351
    Of course any company would want to sell more than what they project. Remember the only reason they are bringing the Equus to the US is last summer and fall they had the Korean version of the Equus tour all major metropolitan areas and got feedback from Hyundai (Genesis) owners and other interested luxury owners and the response was quite favorable. I myself was able to visit the local Hyundai dealer (Fort Lauderdale) back in August and sit and play with it for almost a 1/2 hour and came away very, very impressed by the Equus. Will I buy one? I would be very interested but my budget doesn't allow it at this time. Perhaps in few years. Its truly for the folks who have a 5 series budget but would like the comfort and amenities of a 7 series. I personally think they will sell between 1500-2500 for the first year.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    whether it's 1000 or 3000, either number is low enough that Hyundai at least claim success by simply keeping the number ridiculously low.

    The LS was a monumental success that largely redefined the luxury car business and also redefined the luxury car dealer. And given that the Lexus dealers were largely paid for by the folks that chose to sell them, Toyota, it turned out, was awash in a sea of BLACK INK for the get go.

    Hyundai isn't even attempting to cater to the American buyer's brand consciousness and further does not have nearly the brand standing that Toyota did back in 1990. So if you think about what Toyota and Lexus did, there is little similarity between that and what Hyundai is supposedly attempting. A much closer parallel is what VW attempted to do 5 years ago - both in brand status and in ignorance of the ways of the American car buyer. And we know what happened there - the few Phaetons that were sold ended up becoming used car values that made Lincolns look like good buys. :cry:

    I actually do hope that the luxury buyer can look past his/her upturned nose and evaluate the Equus (or any other Hyundai product) for what it really is (or isn't).
    Not likely, though, a luxury car , must have at least some prestige - something that Hyundai labelled products do NOT currently have any of , at any price. It is when the Equus buyer does'nt have to defend (or otherwise justify) his $60k purchase (or FTM his $40k one) that Hyundai can start to make a place in the so called luxury market.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    my point was that the that precious "Theta' (or whatever they call it engine) - is nothing terribly remarkable from an engineering point of view - and nor FTM is getting 270+ HP out of a 4 banger terribly remarkable. In fact I would put to you that Hyundai only recently has started to offer what most of the others have been doing for years and they ARE NOT a company that in any way is noted for the prowess uinder the hood. You may regard that as a criticism, I only look at it as HISTORY.
    The point on mentioning the legal problems that Hyundai got itself into 10 years ago misrepresenting their engine outputs was to lend some support to a particular poster who, it seems, has a bit of difficulty believing any of the Hyundai's claims - for good reason?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited April 2010
    misrepresenting their engine outputs

    For a second there I thought you were talking about Honda and Toyota (seems like the Mazda RX8 had a similar issue).

    baltoman, "Toyota Avalon 2005+" #8825, 19 Sep 2005 5:49 pm

    Oh yeah, owners of the 1999 Mustang Cobra R and '01 Miata were offered compensation for overstating HP.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    For a second there I thought you were talking about Honda and Toyota (seems like the Mazda RX8 had a similar issue).
    if you are going to attempt to rewrite history or ignore it (and the post you reference) - at least you should know that Hyundai's situation with lying about there engine output was substantially different than many of the (primarily) J3 mfgrs complying with SAE mandated rating changes that became effective for the 06 MY. Hyundai got sued - and had to settle - the others did not.
    And
    owners of the 1999 Mustang Cobra R and '01 Miata were offered compensation for overstating HP.
    The only point BTW of even mentioning this was - some reasons perhaps that Garrett's apparent distrust in Hyundai (his article) has, at least, some justification. There are actually plenty of things that pretty much everybody else has dirtied their hands on at one time or another - but just because Ford/Mazda might have done something like this on their Mustangs or Miatas at one time, doesn't justify anybody else doing it. Not even Hyundai.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    In fact I would put to you that Hyundai only recently has started to offer what most of the others have been doing for years...

    Really? Tell us then, which Honda, Toyota, and Nissan sedans are currently available with an I4 engine, normally aspirated, that makes at least 200 hp, and an I4 turbo that makes at least 270 hp. (Since "most" automakers have done that kind of thing for years, according to you, I assume all of the J3 are and have been doing it for some time.) And that would be with FE of at least 35 mpg for the normally-aspirated engine, and at least 34 for the turbo, of course, to match or (more likely) exceed what Hyundai has done. Also, tell us how many years these automakers have offered those kinds of engines--since they have been doing it "for years."
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited April 2010
    Hyundai settled the suit while maintaining that most of their miscalculations fell inside the accepted industry margins of error at the time -- plus-or-minus 4 percent.

    That was way before the '06 SAE HP ratings upgrade - those new methods resulted in lower horsepower ratings for a number of Toyota and Honda models. Not so much anyone else. New SAE testing methods admonish Toyota, Honda to hold their horses (AutoBlog)

    It's a bit like bashing a brand because it has a recall. Much ado for the trial lawyers, gift cards for the owners.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,167
    Is any real world data for this Turbo actually known? Is there a Sonata in existence with this engine right now?
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    No, of course not. Hyundai has obviously not built any of these turbo engines yet nor done any real-world testing on it, including hp testing, even though they plan to start selling it in North American this fall. They just made up all the info on the turbo engine for the New York Auto Show, out of thin air. Then they'll scramble for the next few months trying to build an engine that meets the claims of their senior executives and marketing folks.

    Sheesh.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,167
    Then I am sure you can link me to some reports of how this engine behaves in the real world. If it's to be on the road in several months, in a car that is already on the road, some data must exist ;)

    I want to see that engine in a stiffened Accent hatch.
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