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If American Union workers would build a decent car, Ford wouldn't need to go outside our borders to have it done. Heck if non Union workers gave a sh*t about the work they did, more cars would be built here.
All in all, if you look at what is left of US manufacturing, we have less than 1/8 what we had after WWII. The majority has been shipped overseas due to cheap labor, and the products we get now are crap compared to what they used to be. The appliances made in the US are garbage, I have a couple pieces of junk that I bought thinking that they would be good products because they were built here, well, now they collect dust and have been replaced with things made elsewhere, and not from China either.
In any case, The Ford Fusion that I own is a better built car than the Camry I had. The former, built in Mexico, the latter built in Kentucky.
Hyundai sales are blowing the doors off. Anyone buying a Genesis? (AutoObserver)
Pricey 2011 Hyundai Equus Debuts (Inside Line)
It's almost Shakespearean... Much Ado About Nothing.
I want to see that new turbo 4 put in an Elantra or something...H needs to show a wild side :shades:
http://wheels.blog.nytimes.com/2010/04/01/new-york-auto-show-2011-hyundai-sonata- - -turbo-and-hybrid/
Even if I were not a fan of a particular automaker I wouldn't trash them as he did in that article.
I'm very surprised at the New York Times!!!!
I saw pics of the upcoming Kia Optima ...looks better than the Sonata IMO,.
http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/
John Krafcick, Hyundai’s chief executive in North America, said Hyundai would be satisfied with selling 3,000 Equus models a year. People with lifelong aspirations to own a Mercedes or BMW may not be interested, but other affluent people will be, he added. “The people we call the ‘strivers’ need and want that luxury badge, but for the millionaire-next-door buyer, a lot of them got that way by making smart purchases.”
comment: even if Hyundai finds those 3000 maverick 'millionaires', how does that make Hyundai a player in the luxury end of things? Catering to the 'strivers' and those that 'need' to fulfill their own aspirations is a good part of what paying that extra money for that S, 7, or even LS is all about. Sure the 'millionaires may not be interested in showing off to anybody, but this also assumes that those same folks would be willing to accept something less than the best, when money is no object. I think Hyundai is a victim of some wishful thinking here, not that they are immune to such things?
from Ulrich:
the Equus becomes the Volkswagen Phaeton redux: An overreaching and already dated-looking sedan that may finally draw the line on how high the Hyundai name can travel in the market.
Even ignoring the styling comments - isn't this what we have talked to death on this forum for years now?
Hyundai does seem to want to ignore history or alternately write their own - and ignore those limtiations that come with the brand conscious American consumer. To think that the Hyundai name has any better perceptions in today's market than VW did a few years ago (when they introduced the otherwise wonderful Phaeton), isn't Hyundai simply fooling (or overestimating) themselves. :confuse:
The current Genesis sedan avoids many of these issues simply because it is an upscale sedan - and not a luxury one. It is not a competitor, to a Lexus anything (other than possibly the ES), FTM a German anything. The Equus OTH????
I believe you may be over thinking this. Hyundai is just marketing a nice luxury sedan at a nice price to a market niche they found. Nothing more, nothing less. You can try to make something historical or apocalyptic out of it, but it doesn't work.
It's not like the old days where manufacturers spent a gazillion dollars for design and tooling, and low sales killed them instantly. Design, tooling, and assembly are all computerized now, and take 1/4 the time, resources, and commitment they used to take. There are no longer huge dedicated production lines, just a few extra dies in the sheet metal shop.
"But the over-tall body and Korean home-market styling makes even a Lexus LS look like a Bentley in comparison."..."An overreaching and already dated-looking sedan that may finally draw the line on how high the Hyundai name can travel in the market"...that sounds like me.
I also think this is somewhat clueless: “The people we call the ‘strivers’ need and want that luxury badge, but for the millionaire-next-door buyer, a lot of them got that way by making smart purchases.” - IMO most "millionaires next door" never spend 55K on a car no matter what it offers. They'll buy it when it is used and priced like a Camcord, or just buy the Camcord itself. Buying a car at that level is never about being "smart" no matter the badge, it's a splurge, that H propagandist needs to admit it. Millionaires next door don't tend to buy fancy cars.
I think the iPad idea is kind of weird, I thought it might be an April Fool's joke. How many of those things will still be with the car when it is 5 years old? Can't the manual be integrated into the car's hard drive? The Euro-spec 7er I drove had it that way.
I do like the ambitious customer service ideas that were touted in that article...can the average dealer handle that, or will the Equus only be sold at like one dealer per major market, hand selected and renovated to a higher standard?
I will say it again, the Optima shown there is much better looking than the Sonata, although Audi wants their wheels from 6-7 years ago back.
I am most interested in that 2 liter 274hp turbo unit, how it works in the real world. It could be a gem, or could be a mess and make the Sonata an untameable beast...which could be fun too.
It read like an article that reminded me of you.....just kidding...lol :P
5 years ago is hardly the 'old days' and no VW didn't spend a gazillion dollars on anything, the Phaeton in large part an Audi A8. It failed simply because of the label attached to a price - neither of which matched VW's decidedly more pedestrian image. And this would be different from a $60k Hyundai (or even a $40k one) , how?
That all said, nothing 'acopcalyptic' if Hyundai sells 0 Equus, just a demonstration to their marketing mavens that mass market mfgrs. (and mass market brandnames) have no place in the luxury market.
would tend to agree with this simply because those same well heeled buyers are also the ones that would likely view the automobile as an appliance. The Equus or even the current top end Gens are hardly appliances.
Given that those 'millionaires' have no interests in impressing anybody, the only way that the 'millionaire' spends even $60k on a car is when he can also appreciate it for what it is - aka an enthusiast. It appears that the Equus is really not a bunch more than a stretched Gen sedan with a bit more bling. In both cases not anything that an enthusiast would be interested in - for any price. Think Hyundai's anticipations for the Equus border on absurd.
Isn't the 'new' Hyundai 4 banger, the 'World' engine that is shared with Mitsu, Chrysler and others?
If that's the case, it had better be a damn good base to start with, - forcing too much HP through something good like a Honda 4 banger is entirely different than attempting the same outa that old 2.3 Ford/Mazda 4 banger, foe example. It certainly left much to be desired from a refinement point of view. Drove a CX7 for a few weeks recently and while the vehicle definitely had some power, the engine was rough and 'unrefined'. MPG was seriously overestimated as well -or maybe it was me not being able to keep my right foot from acting up.
Can't help but believe that there may be some foundation for Garrett's reservations given Hyundai's history of HP misrepresentations.
http://www.clubplanet.com/includes/bbs/default.aspx?ref=http://bbs.clubplanet.co- m/useless-blabber/231617-hyundai-reimburse-customers-hp-overstatements.html
Its time to retire from your ship captain!!!!
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/hyundais-march-performance-obscured-by-rivals-2- 010-04-02?siteid=YAHOOB
Far from it. The original Theta design was Hyundai's, yes, and they had a partnership with Mitsubishi and DaimlerChrysler (you'll remember them, they also made Mercedes Benzes) so that each of them could build their own version of that design. But DaimlerChrysler is no more, Chrysler has terminated the partnership, and the current Theta II with its 2.0L and 2.4L versions, now with 274 hp (turbo GDI 2.0L) and up to 200 hp (2.4L GDI) are far removed from their distant Chrysler and Mitsubishi cousins.
If the Theta II isn't smooth enough for you and you want a very smooth engine with lots of power, there's always the 375 hp Tau in the Genesis--one of Ward's Ten Best engines.
I don't believe any company will develop a product, advertise it and "not care" if they sell any. There are still costs for bringing the Equus here that have to be recouped.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
The LS was a monumental success that largely redefined the luxury car business and also redefined the luxury car dealer. And given that the Lexus dealers were largely paid for by the folks that chose to sell them, Toyota, it turned out, was awash in a sea of BLACK INK for the get go.
Hyundai isn't even attempting to cater to the American buyer's brand consciousness and further does not have nearly the brand standing that Toyota did back in 1990. So if you think about what Toyota and Lexus did, there is little similarity between that and what Hyundai is supposedly attempting. A much closer parallel is what VW attempted to do 5 years ago - both in brand status and in ignorance of the ways of the American car buyer. And we know what happened there - the few Phaetons that were sold ended up becoming used car values that made Lincolns look like good buys.
I actually do hope that the luxury buyer can look past his/her upturned nose and evaluate the Equus (or any other Hyundai product) for what it really is (or isn't).
Not likely, though, a luxury car , must have at least some prestige - something that Hyundai labelled products do NOT currently have any of , at any price. It is when the Equus buyer does'nt have to defend (or otherwise justify) his $60k purchase (or FTM his $40k one) that Hyundai can start to make a place in the so called luxury market.
The point on mentioning the legal problems that Hyundai got itself into 10 years ago misrepresenting their engine outputs was to lend some support to a particular poster who, it seems, has a bit of difficulty believing any of the Hyundai's claims - for good reason?
For a second there I thought you were talking about Honda and Toyota (seems like the Mazda RX8 had a similar issue).
baltoman, "Toyota Avalon 2005+" #8825, 19 Sep 2005 5:49 pm
Oh yeah, owners of the 1999 Mustang Cobra R and '01 Miata were offered compensation for overstating HP.
if you are going to attempt to rewrite history or ignore it (and the post you reference) - at least you should know that Hyundai's situation with lying about there engine output was substantially different than many of the (primarily) J3 mfgrs complying with SAE mandated rating changes that became effective for the 06 MY. Hyundai got sued - and had to settle - the others did not.
And
owners of the 1999 Mustang Cobra R and '01 Miata were offered compensation for overstating HP.
The only point BTW of even mentioning this was - some reasons perhaps that Garrett's apparent distrust in Hyundai (his article) has, at least, some justification. There are actually plenty of things that pretty much everybody else has dirtied their hands on at one time or another - but just because Ford/Mazda might have done something like this on their Mustangs or Miatas at one time, doesn't justify anybody else doing it. Not even Hyundai.
Really? Tell us then, which Honda, Toyota, and Nissan sedans are currently available with an I4 engine, normally aspirated, that makes at least 200 hp, and an I4 turbo that makes at least 270 hp. (Since "most" automakers have done that kind of thing for years, according to you, I assume all of the J3 are and have been doing it for some time.) And that would be with FE of at least 35 mpg for the normally-aspirated engine, and at least 34 for the turbo, of course, to match or (more likely) exceed what Hyundai has done. Also, tell us how many years these automakers have offered those kinds of engines--since they have been doing it "for years."
That was way before the '06 SAE HP ratings upgrade - those new methods resulted in lower horsepower ratings for a number of Toyota and Honda models. Not so much anyone else. New SAE testing methods admonish Toyota, Honda to hold their horses (AutoBlog)
It's a bit like bashing a brand because it has a recall. Much ado for the trial lawyers, gift cards for the owners.
Sheesh.
I want to see that engine in a stiffened Accent hatch.