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Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?

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Comments

  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    yet you demand Hyundai create separate dealerships to sell its luxury cars. Seems like a double standard to me--OK for others to do it, but not Hyundai.
    you still have this problem understanding that a Mini is NOT a BMW???
    I don't demand anything BTW , the brand conscious American consumer does - and it is NOT a double standard, only a fact of life. This brand consciousness has been demonstrated repeatedly over the years starting in about 1986 when Honda invented Acura, continuing thru other successes like Lexus and Infiniti and also as demonstrated by failures like Amati/Millenia and, of course, the Phaeton.
    The fact that Hyundai, specifically, might be making better cars these days does NOT change any this brand conscious attitude, or the fact that Hyundai's brand rep is decidedly pedestrian just like many many other mainstream mfgrs. An improvement in Hyundai's brand rep it could and should make it easier for Hyundai to establish that luxury' brand much in the same way that the J3 superior reps back in 1990 minimized customer resistance to those new lux brands. Acura and Lexus succeeded in large part because of the established reps of Honda and Toyota at the time , and it is no coincidence that Infiniti was less successful given that Nissan had a less stellar reputation at the time.
    And lastly to the recent posters that seem to honestly believe that an automobile is a commodity and nothing more than some assemblage of specs and bling there are many that feel that way and a lot of them would naturally flock to Korean products.
    My only comment is- I think you all are missing more than you care to admit.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited April 2010
    Sure it is. And a Lexus is a Toyota. And cars are basically toasters. Don't like yours, go down to the store and pick up a new one in a different color. How much product differentiation is there really? More than a sack of corn, but still.

    It's more like you want a sporty ride, you gravitate towards that group of cars. You want a hatchback, there's a bunch to choose from. You can get just about any option in just about any car, if you want to pay the tariff.
  • acdiiacdii Member Posts: 753
    uh, yeah a Mini is a BMW! Google BMW mini and see what you get.

    BMW Mini Parts

    From Wiki

    Mini (styled as MINI) is an automotive brand owned by the BMW Group

    It is not the same Mini as those built by BMC, although they are almost as scary small.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    brand conscious American consumer

    I call them "the 5% hard core car enthusiast demographic". Believe it or not, there are small but very active forums dedicated to them. I bet their conversations can be very spirited.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    I bet their conversations can be very spirited
    sure they are - to them the car they spend so much time in is at least one of their passions. Nothing wrong wth that at all although I would wager a higher percentage than you think - including guys like me, someone who at least thinks he knows why somebody would spend that kind of money on 4 wheels, but ultimately has never been able to justify it personally - despite the finances not being the obstacle that it once was.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    so the fact that the Camcordimas so handily outsell things like Sonata is NOT a function of the 'brand conscious' American consumer?????
    Of course it is - and hell it may be getting to a point that it is the primary reason. Sincerely doubt that all those folks out there spending more money on a Camry are doing so becuase they are 'enthusiasts'.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    edited April 2010
    so the fact that the Camcordimas so handily outsell things like Sonata is NOT a function of the 'brand conscious' American consumer?????

    I'll bet laziness, ignorance, fear, and herding instinct have more to do with it than brand loyalty.

    Most of my friends are too lazy to do more than cursory research when buying a car. Most are ignorant of recent changes and trends in the industry. They are afraid to change brands because something bad may happen. They want a Camcordima because Joe and Jill have one, and they are cool people. Sad, isn't it?

    It does take a while for perception to reconcile with reality, but it usually does.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    I'll bet laziness, ignorance, fear, and herding instinct have more to do with it than brand loyalty.
    now this is a helluva comment - apparently those that don't worship Hyundai the way you do are lazy, ignorant?
    and they wouldn't be buying those Camcords or whatever simply because they believe them to be a better products, worry about things that are not so inconsequential - like resale values, or even they might still be just a little reticient to spend that kind of money on a Korean product - (THAT we will call fear).
    I am very happy that you obviously have a high opinion of Hyundai and its products, but sales statistics would indicate you are in the minority.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I read this morning somewhere that one out of every five sedans on the road is a Camry. Toyota built up their brand reputation over the years and it paid off. The brand is everything.

    Hey, wait a minute ... something's not right here. :shades:
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    you still have this problem understanding that a Mini is NOT a BMW???

    No. But you still seem to have a problem understanding the difference between a luxury vehicle and a luxury brand.

    No one, certainly not me, is claiming there are no brand-conscious buyers. But, here's the key point: NOT ALL CAR BUYERS ARE BRAND-CONSCIOUS. In other words, not all car buyers think like you. It is true Sonata doesn't outsell the Camcords. But it sold nearly 19,000 copies in the US last month. That's a lot of buyers who aren't fixated on Toyota and Honda brands.
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    I agree with you backy, I'm in no way brand conscious and I have no brand loyalty. I found out a long time ago, there is no such thing as brand loyalty. When it comes down to it, when I went back to the same dealer I bought or leased from they gave me worse treatment and prices then dealerships I never had been to, let alone lease or bought from before.

    It doesn't matter what dealership or brand you have. When you go back in to get another vehicle your just another customer to them who they want to make the most money on it doesn't matter if you have a vehicle from them, if you made all your payments, etc.

    That is why I have no problem cross shopping brands when I get vehicles. I will go with who ever's product I like (both inside/outside) but more importantly how well they treat me and how good a deal I can work out with them.
  • dean3927dean3927 Member Posts: 80
    edited April 2010
    Comparison: 2011 Mustang V-6 vs 2010 Genesis Coupe 3.8 vs 2010 Camaro RS vs 2010 Challenger SE

    http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1004_2011_mustang_v6_vs_2010_genesis_- coupe_3_8_vs_2010_camaro_rs_vs_2010_challenger_se/index.html

    ***Watch the entertaining 6-min. video also***
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    But, here's the key point: NOT ALL CAR BUYERS ARE BRAND-CONSCIOUS]
    and here the KEY POINT: more are brand conscious than aren't - and do you really want to know why we know that???
    Because otherwise brands like Hyundai would dominate car sales instead of being a relatively minor player. It is largely because of this (currently) poor brand perception that Hyundai will have difficulty in the luxury market, and that's pretty much regardless of how good any car they might produce is.
  • tenpin288tenpin288 Member Posts: 804
    edited April 2010
    more are brand conscious than aren't

    I would say it is more "brand-repetitive" and "brand change-adverse". If they were really "brand-conscious" they would investigate each brand more in depth, be more aware what each brand's advantage/disadvantages are and then the "poor brand reception" you ascribe to Hyundai would no longer exist, at least we hope in your mind. ;)
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    would say it is more "brand-repetitive" and "brand change-adverse
    that too - thinking back to my Dad who was 'a Buick' guy for years and years - then he bought his first Toyota (a 72 Corona) and it's quality was far superior to his 68 Skylark. He never bought another Buick.
    Getting folks to change those perceptions and their habits is a large part of Hyundai's work in progress - and not that they aren't doing a much better job at it, particularily lately - but pretending that a brand resistance doesn't still exist (as some on this forum would) is wishful thinking and shows a further lack of understanding of the importance of branding.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    I'm in no way brand conscious and I have no brand loyalty
    you are not unique and would further, IMO, be the 'typical' Hyundai customer. But be aware though, that may change - Hyundai should, sooner or later, get more customers that buy their products BECAUSE of the brand, and not necessarily because they are cheaper (or more value, if you prefer) .
    It is when that happens that Hyundai will find it easier to establish some sort of luxury brand, and make actual luxury cars.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    So you are saying that to get some "room" in the luxury market, a majority of buyers must be non-brand-conscious? That's a really big room. I'll bet Hyundai will be very happy with a smaller living space in the luxury market, in the near term.

    Also, if you add up all the non-leading brands i.e. non-J3 and luxury brands, such as Hyundai, Kia, Mitsubishi, most GM brands, Ford/Mercury, Chrysler/Dodge, Subaru, etc., that's a lot of owners. Plus those owners of the J3 and luxury brands who are open-minded enough to consider other options. And we know those people exist, e.g. the 40% of trades for the Genesis sedan from luxury brands that Hyundai's VP mentioned.

    As for brand perception... selling 19,000 of one model, in one month, and selling over 47,000 total vehicles in one month doesn't seem to me to reflect a poor brand perception.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    So you are saying that to get some "room" in the luxury market, a majority of buyers must be non-brand-conscious?
    No not really, all I'm saying is that Hyundai can't be Hyundai, and nor can Hyundai sell all ends of the market at the same time - AS HYUNDAI. THIS NOT CRITICISM of Hyundai it is a condition of what the luxuy market is - and isn't. Furthermore, all those brands you mention in this post - would not find any 'room' either - all for pretty much the same reasons.
    And I have no doubt that between Toyota's problems and the fact that the Sonata is brand new that Hyundai is quite well selling them right now. Furthermore, since those sales are improving so must the brand perceptions. There is increasingly less luggage attached to the Hyundai name - no doubt. Is it enough right now to support a luxury brand? Not yet, IMO
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    ... nor can Hyundai sell all ends of the market at the same time - AS HYUNDAI

    You are forgetting one little thing... Hyundai is doing this RIGHT NOW. Hard to go against reality, isn't it? :surprise:

    Yes, your hypothesis was very interesting a couple of years ago, before the Genesis showed up, and no one knew what would happen. Now, however, there is this little thing called "reality" getting in the way of your hypothesis.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    like another subject very near and dear to my heart, people don't change their mind about strongly-held beliefs very well. Apparently the Captain is one if "those."

    I would leave well enough alone with this subject. Batton down the hatches for the real war that is soon to come upon us all.

    And that is who is the best carmaker, Mitsubishi or Suzuki?

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    :D
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    Hyundai sells in all ends of the market right now? That's news to me :shades:
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    OK, not in the over-$50k class. Wait a few months. The horse ain't goin' nowhere, anyway. ;)
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    In my eyes, there are many distinct market groups in the over-50K segment.
  • toyetoye Member Posts: 351
    yeah,,,,,only M and B
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    Not quite...but it is silly to claim that 50K+ is one borderless segment from there upwards.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    It all depends on your classification scheme. If you want to segment the market in small slices, then no one automaker covers the entire spectrum of the market. So not a big deal that Hyundai does not do that, is it?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    I can't imagine any credible voice claiming that the market ends at 50K and up with no further divisions.

    Yes, it is no big deal that H doesn't do everything, just amusing if someone claims H actually does do everything ;)
  • toyetoye Member Posts: 351
    As far as type of vehicles produced H doesn't do pickups or convertibles.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Well, Edmunds.com claims the market classification ends at $85k and up, even though there's many vehicles that cost 3x or more, even over $1 million. So I guess Edmunds isn't credible either, in your eyes.

    And btw, no one claimed that Hyundai "does everything." But based on how one segments the market, they do cover the entire market price-wise. For example, since the Equus 5.0 sells for over $85k in the ROK, then in Edmunds' eyes at least, Hyundai does cover the entire market spectrum, price-wise. I know you will find that amusing. ;)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    edited April 2010
    Actually, Hyundai does do pickups... just not in the USA.

    As for convertibles, that is such a small slice of the market, I can understand why Hyundai has said "no" to the idea, e.g. a Genesis coupe convertible. Look at Hyundai's main competitors, the J3. Only one of them offers a convertible in the USA--the 370Z. Toyota and Honda used to offer convertibles here, but no more. Must have realized it wasn't worth the effort and cost.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    Or high performance tuned cars or super/sports cars or true world class luxobarges...

    Convertibles and pickups can be divided into several categories as well.
  • j2jj2j Member Posts: 147
    "I would qualify that to say that marketing of the brand reputation is the real story."

    - Very true.

    By superior marketing, Rolex was able to surpass Omega and hence, command significantly higher prices (a no. of decades ago, the Rolex Submariner and Omega Seamaster were pretty close in price).
  • j2jj2j Member Posts: 147
    "Just another reason why the solid reliability record of the Genesis sedan to date is all the more impressive.
    'to date' is the key phrase there - reminder that Hyundai's first effort at going upscale, the Azera, did much worse in its second year than its first."

    - The 2nd year was a blip - all the other years have been above average in CR's reliability ratings.
  • j2jj2j Member Posts: 147
    "Just like the Avalon, the Maxima, the Taurus etc. it is really what a 'flagship' of a mass market brand should be. The Genesis IMO to me oversteps what the carbuyer is willing to accept from a mfgr called Hyundai. Call it something else, and sell it somewhere else, we might have a different story.

    Unfortunately now though I see the Azera as an abandoned child, as Hyundai endeavors to make an impact in a market that they plainly don't belong - at least not the way they are attempting to do it."


    - And yet the sales of the Genesis sedan over the past year and a half have outsold the Lexus GS and Infiniti M by a 2 to 1 margin.

    Even the new M's sale's figure is about where the Genesis sedan is selling on a monthly basis.

    As for the Azera, it was a nice effort by Hyundai but not as competitive in its segment (large, upscale FWD sedan) as the Avalon and the new Taurus and Maxima.

    Plus, Hyundai put nothing into marketing the Azera on television.

    The next-gen Azera should do for Hyundai in the large, upscale FWD sedan segment what the new Sonata is currently doing for Hyundai in the mainstream mid-size sedan segment.
  • j2jj2j Member Posts: 147
    "that number was discussed here on this forum for months - something like a paltry 25%? And that number a claim by a Hyundai exec who conveniently gets to define what he thinks luxury cars are and are not"

    Uhh, that figure was 40%, not 25% - and the Hyundai exec was referring to brands like BMW, Infiniti, etc. - and that 40% conquest rate is probably very similar for models like the CTS, ES, IS and G37 (I guess they aren't "luxury" either).

    "and yes BTW the Genesis is NOT a luxury car in my opinion - and it has little to do with the car itself and EVERYTHING to do with brand reputations and perceptions."

    So the Toyota Century, the flagship of the Toyota.Lexus fleet, isn't a luxury auto since it's branded a Toyota?

    And yet the Acura CSX, basically a rebadged JDM Civic, is b/c of the badge? lol
  • j2jj2j Member Posts: 147
    Again, you are confusing "luxury vehicle" with "luxury brand"
    no I'm not - and this I have been very consistent on - a luxury vehicle MUST have a luxury brand AND a luxury vehicle is more than just a assembly of specs and other bling.

    On that basis, the Toyota Celsior (aka the Lexus LS) was not a luxury vehicle despite the only difference being the badge, and I guess members of the Japanese royal family do not ride in a, "luxury" vehicle due to the Century being a Toyota.

    That means the Nissan Cima, which used to sold in the US as the Q45, was not a luxury vehicle as well; not to mention the Nissan President which is even higher up on the Nissan hierarchy.

    Luxury vehicle and luxury brand do not always correlate - plenty of people would say the Mercedes A and B Classes, much less the C Class, are not luxury vehicles despite the Mercedes star emblem on the hood.

    None other than Ferdinand Piëch regarded the VW Phaeton to be a luxury vehicle (I'd say his opinion holds much more sway than yours).

    Under Piëch's command, the Phaeton was engineered to be better than the A8, w/ the Phaeton sharing the same platform w/ the Bentley Continental GT and Bentley Continental Flying Spur (something that the A8 does not).

    To say that the Phaeton isn't a luxury vehicle while the A6, much less the A4 and A1 are, is quite ludicrous.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    I am very happy that you obviously have a high opinion of Hyundai and its products, but sales statistics would indicate you are in the minority

    That's my whole point: WHY are Hyundai sales so low? The answer is, for no good reason.

    Don't be offended by the word "ignorance". Look it up, it simply means "Lacking information or knowledge", and is not derogatory.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited April 2010
    In the context of a forum, tossing "ignorant" around is abusive. Especially so since you can't read the body language of the poster. Words often have more than one pure dictionary meaning and you know that that's a trigger word. People see that and entirely miss whatever point you were trying to make.

    Shall we get back to Hyundais please? (and it seems like being in the minority would be a luxury characteristic - otherwise you're talking about a mass market commodity item).
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    edited April 2010
    The next-gen Azera should do for Hyundai in the large, upscale FWD sedan segment what the new Sonata is currently doing for Hyundai in the mainstream mid-size sedan segment

    I think you're right.

    When Hyundai announced the new Sonata would be 4cyl only, it left a hole in their lineup. The most logical way to fill it is with the new Azera. I think the price will overlap Sonata and Genesis sedan slightly, and it probably won't offer a 4cyl. I'm guessing it will compete with Avalon and even V6 Camry and Accord.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Under Piëch's command, the Phaeton was engineered to be better than the A8, w/ the Phaeton sharing the same platform w/ the Bentley Continental GT and Bentley Continental Flying Spur (something that the A8 does not).

    To say that the Phaeton isn't a luxury vehicle while the A6, much less the A4 and A1 are, is quite ludicrous


    exactly the point, the Phaeton was a failure BECAUSE in the somewhat foggy land of brand perceptions the carbuyers were NOT going to pay that kind of money for something with a VW badge - regardless of the fact that the Phaeton was every bit a competitor - and in some ways better than the undeniably lux class A8. AND it even had an approprately high price tag. So the Phaeton made (makes) the lux cut in terms of what the car was and is on a spec sheet but fails miserably because it is labelled as a VW. And the difference between this and the Hyundai Gen/Equus is what?
    In China Buick is a luxury brand, and they tell me in outer Mongolia they are still hanging on to Yugo as the definitive lux car ;) The point being that how a brand is perceived overseas had little or nothing to do with how it is sold here. Toyota is a mass market non lux brand HERE in much the same way as Hyundai is. VW should have passed Toyota as the world's #1 automaker by now, but here IN THIS COUNTRY they are a second tier mass market brand like you know who.... Such is the power - and subjectivity - of product perceptions.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    WHY are Hyundai sales so low? The answer is, for no good reason.
    Product perceptions - fair or not - true or not - are very good reasons for somebody not to buy something.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    And the difference between this and the Hyundai Gen/Equus is what?

    For the Genesis, the difference is about $20,000++. For the Equus, the difference (with the loaded Phaeton) is about $35-40k. Quite a difference.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    Product perceptions - fair or not - true or not - are very good reasons for somebody not to buy something.

    I hope that was a typo. :blush:
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    the difference is about $20,000++. For the Equus, the difference (with the loaded Phaeton) is about $35-40k. Quite a difference
    if you are going to try to compare a German sedan with a Korean one - at least you ought to put a V8 in each, The Phaeton's MSRP on that basis $75k , assumming the Equus at $60k - maybe not really that much a difference?
    This is also a difference between with the way a Hyundai buyer tends to look at things versus the way a luxury car buyer looks at things - you really think that anybody putting up that kind of money really cares that much about a lousy $15-20k- or even more??? Nope, might be paying cash for the thing anyway and that buyer wants what he perceives as the best - plain and simple.
    The fact that a Hyundai product is cheaper than Brand Xs product is NOT what works with the luxury buyer and that's if you really stretch into the assumption that the buyer even recognizes that Hyundai even exists. He'll buy what he thinks is best and if an S600, for example is more money than the 760 so be it, he'll spend his $150k the way he wants to - and is entitled to.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    edited April 2010
    you really think that anybody putting up that kind of money really cares that much about a lousy $15-20k- or even more???

    Why don't you give us your theory then why the Genesis sells in higher volume than the GS and M, which cost about $15-20k more. If price were no object, wouldn't buyers go for the more established marques with the "luxury" branding, vs. a lowly Hyundai?

    Do you think people become rich by throwing away money, e.g. spending $15-20k or more extra on a car when they don't have to? :surprise: I think it's hilarious that you assume that someone who would buy a Hyundai cannot be a "luxury car buyer." It really shows you have no comprehension of today's car buyers.

    FYI... the Equus is supposed to start at just over $50k, not $60k as you noted. That's a $25k price difference to the Phaeton V8. Or about a 50% premium over the Equus. A huge difference.
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    Well just to point something out here, and I'm not saying this is the sole reason why the Genesis sold better than the GS or M, but just in price point alone, as you pointed out, you'd expect the Genesis to sell more in volume then the latter two because its much cheaper. The cheaper a vehicle is, the more people who can afford it, especially in a recession. I am a great example of this. I could afford a V8 Genesis but could not afford a V8 M or GS because of how much more they cost.

    Just like I'd expect a Sonata to sell more volume to a Genesis since its price point is less and more people can afford a Sonata then those that can afford a Genesis.

    So my whole point is, the lower price point alone will allow the Genesis to sell more volume than the GS or M can since more of the population can afford the lower price. Is that the sole reason, no but it is a large contributing factor I think.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I agree with you, but captain2 said that price is no object for cars like this. So a measly $15-20k difference won't really be a difference. I think it is a big difference. Especially considering many so-called "luxury car buyers" are living beyond their means, and for them $15-20k is a big deal. For someone looking to pay cash for a Bentley... well, they might blow $15-20k in Vegas on a weekend too. Not many buyers in that stratosphere, though.
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    very true backy very true!
  • toyetoye Member Posts: 351
    MSN on their homepage is comparing the Genesis 4.6, BMW 559i and MB E550

    Another example of Genesis being viewed and accepted as a luxury vehicle.
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