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Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?

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Comments

  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    edited May 2010
    if Kia has the financial capital to break free from Hyundai and make it on their own. I'm sure Kia execs never talk about these things over Starbuck's French Roast and gloppy raspberry jelly donuts, huh?

    Remember, up until the fall of 1998 Kia Motors of South Korea existed as their own financial entity. They have continued to design their own cars, sure they're platform sharing with Hyundai, but, and maybe it is indeed a large butt, could the boys that built my 1999 Kia Sephia cut the tether to Hyundai and drift along on their own and still have a positive cash flow in the second half of 2010 and all of 2011...and/on?

    Pass me another Skittle as I ponder this important message further and gaze admiringly at my blue and red 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution Hot Wheels. :shades:

    image

    Ooops. Wrong picture iluvmysephia1. I mean my '65 Mustang and 2008 Lancer Evolution models. :blush:

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I'd also include Cadillac and Buick. They've never let me down! :shades:
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    very true backy! not exactly sure what is going to happen but like I said, a lot is going to be determined for Hyundai's future direction on how the Equus sells here!

    At least with Hyundai, their current styling direction is really making their products stand out and putting them on the map!
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    edited May 2010
    At least with Hyundai, their current styling direction is really making their products stand out and putting them on the map!

    Yep! The way I see it, Hyundai needs to stay the course, continuing to build up their reputation for solid reliability in their high volume cars. That will give buyers the confidence to spend $35-55K on their luxury offerings. When Hyundai builds up their rep a little more, they can afford to spin off a luxury division, but then, they wouldn't need to. It reminds me of credit. If you don't have money, you can't borrow it. If you do have money, your credit is good, but you don't need to borrow it.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Cadillac I give you a pass on - despite that most of their products are GM rebadges - I'll concede that in the minds of most it is still THE 'American' luxury brand.
    Buick, on the other hand is a different problem - GM had spent the last 50 years or so repositioning the brand as more mainstream - and only very recently (and by eliminating a lot of what they once offered) has been trying to reposition the brand as 'luxury'. Despite things like the Lucerne being rebadged DTSs, and the now more upscale Lacrosse - don't think the average American autobuyer believes the Buick brand to be 'luxury' and nor is the Buick dealer too much 'better' than the average Chevy dealer.
    Don't know that Buick will ever be considered 'luxury' even in the same league as Cadillac is considered and further think that if it wasn't for Cadillac's unique models (CTS/STS) that Cadillac would be in much the same position as Lincoln is - a luxury brand without a luxury product.
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    I don't understand it either. Cadillac will always be GM's true upscale luxury brand yet Buick is taking over that as well and many prices start overlapping into Cadillac price ranges. Never heard of a manufacturer having two luxury divisions! seems a bit redundant if you ask me!

    They should have gotten rid of Buick, and kept Pontiac. They should of scrapped most of the Pontiac models, since they were just rebadged Chevy's, and made 4-5 unique sport models from the ground up, as a sports division for GM, that could compete with the likes of Scion, etc!!
  • jimbresjimbres Member Posts: 2,025
    Cadillac will always be GM's true upscale luxury brand yet Buick is taking over that as well and many prices start overlapping into Cadillac price ranges.

    Nothing new here - Buick & Cadillac have overlapped for 60 years.

    Back in the early 50s, when I was a toddler (!), doctors still made house calls as a matter of routine, & the top-of-the-line Buick, the Roadmaster, was referred to as "the doctor's car".

    Why? The Roadmaster & the Caddy Sedan de Ville shared the same platform & offered the same amenities & overall driving experience, but doctors felt more comfortable pulling up in front of a patient's house in a Buick. (The Roadmaster was almost always black or navy blue with black sidewall tires. Black did not become a cool color until the mid-1970s.)

    By 1960, most doctors had stopped making house calls & buying Buicks.
  • schnellesautoschnellesauto Member Posts: 59
    edited May 2010
    True, but alot of the other upscale brands, Acura, Lexus, etc some of their cars are re-badges as well. Few examples.. ES350 (re-badged Camry V6), MDX is a Pilot, RDX is a CRV. Most of their buyers don't realize it. Starting next year, Infiniti is one of the only luxury brands with no rebadges and all rear drive based platforms. The Q56 no longer shares the Armada-pathfinder platform. There is no Nissan version in the USA of any Infiniti (starting next year).

    Agreed on Lincoln being a luxury brand with no luxury products. They are 100% rebadges. Although at least their Flex rebadge has totally dif. sheetmetal.
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    edited May 2010
    Oh for God sake, I'm sick of hearing this. They are not rebadged versions. Thats just an excuse MB and BMW people use to make them feel better about paying through the nose for their products despite not having the overall long-term reliability (on avg) the Asian or Korean brands do!

    Go test drive these vehicles back to back, as I have, and you'll see they are not rebadged versions, far from them in fact. Just become some share a similar underlying platform does not mean they are rebadges. That is where there similarities start and end. You should go test drive those vehicles back to back before making generalized statements like that. The quality, design, driving dynamics, etc are entirely different!
  • wolverinejoe80wolverinejoe80 Member Posts: 337
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22O5QnSLdeE&feature=player_embedded

    sorry if this is a repost.

    http://tinyurl.com/y8q5oad
    http://tinyurl.com/ycrtuso

    People think it looks like Maybach, old Rolls Royce, and etc. lol.

    anyway, maybe it's just me, but Equus look as impressive as the S!
  • toyetoye Member Posts: 351
    That video of the Equus is exactly what the Genesis, Equus, Sonata, and Tucson is doing to people's perception of Hyundai "changing their views of the brand" You could tell that they were shocked by the quality and style of the Equus. With products like these and others in the pipeline perceptions of Hyundai will continue to change much faster than others think on this forum.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    With products like these and others in the pipeline perceptions of Hyundai will continue to change much faster than others think on this forum.

    Well said.

    There seems to be a lot of discord and disagreement on this subject, but there really isn't that much. Most of it is about the time frame. Some of us believe Hyundai has already arrived in the luxury segment, others believe it will be soon, others not for years. However, nearly all of us agree it will happen.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    My childhood doctor still made house calls and he had a sleek red 1964 Lincoln Continental! He passed away in 1973, some local dude bought his car, and after that, I don't know what happened to it.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I won't say Hyundai is at the luxury segment yet, but it seems they've achieved parity with the Camcord segment. That Sonata is pretty impressive and blows away the Camry. My brother still has the funky '05 version, but the '10 is a quantum leap over it.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    edited May 2010
    I lke the way MotoMan thinks.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    They are not rebadged versions
    while I'll agree that different trim or even chassis tuning can make these cars 'feel different' you cannot ignore the fact that in many of these cases, that these cars are mechanically identical and often even built on the same assembly line. If that is not 'rebadging' don't know what is.
    In relation to brand perceptions then the fact that a Town Car can be bought as as something else called a Grand Marquis and have 99% of the TCs mechanical (and even bling) content, the Lincoln MK whatever as a optioned out Taurus, the ES as a Camry etc are all situations that ultimately have to cheapen the supposedly higher end brand. It hurts the Lincoln brand that pretty much every product they sell can be bought as a much cheaper Ford (a mainstream non-lux brand, if there ever was one), it hurts Cadillac that the DTS and Lucerne as so similar, and FTM hurts Lexus that the ES is Camry based. A good portion of what makes a luxury brand is the exclusivity (and price premium) attached to the products so branded.
    But to really believe the rebadged cars are different in any definitive way is fooling oneself and likely what the rebadger's marketing dept wants you to believe. That rebadger is doing nothing more than playing on (and profiting from) the American autobuyer as a brand snob.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    I don't think Hyundai intends for the Hyundai brand to be one just for luxury vehicles.
    In this country, the American autobuyer will insist that it is one or the other - a 'luxury brand' or a 'mainstream brand' - as has been demonstrated over the years, time and time again.
    Since Hyundai is already well established in the mainstream end of the market, it is more logical for them to differentiate those products that they intend to compete on the luxury side of things with what doesn't. The Genesis line cannot be Hyundai branded (or sold) to be taken seriously as luxury anythings.
  • toyetoye Member Posts: 351
    Only time will tell whether the old school style of thinking is right or wrong!!
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    edited May 2010
    Listen, I can understand how that may look like rebadging but trust me the cars are not rebadged! I've test driven a V6 XLE Camry back to back with a ES350, on the exact same route, mainly because the dealerships were less than a mile apart. You can't have a better comparison test then that. While I didn't get either car, because they don't suit my aggressive driving style, the ES350 had a completely different feel in the cabin and driving dynamics then the Camry did. For instance, while both have a very soft/floaty like suspension, the ES350 had much better body control and prevented a lot of the up and down bobbing that the Camry had. The interior quality, material used, etc was very different.

    People used to say the same thing about the TL-Accord, and TSX-Civic, but I can tell you that, and I contend that might be true with the 1st and 2nd Generation of the TL and TSX, but at least starting with teh 3G, while the underlying chassis/platform might have been shared, that was all that was similar about them. Acura has been, very slowly mind you, been moving away/distancing themselves with Honda in this rebadging regard. Starting with the 3G TL/TSX, they do not share the same body panels, interior materials, styling, driving dynamics, etc anymore with the Accord and Civic. I mean, Infiniti, and Acura is moving in this direction as well, but a lot more slowly mind you, will no longer share any platform with Nissan models starting next year. I mean take the 4G TL for instance, while its large and butt ugly, it doesn't look anything like the Accord on the inside or outside!

    While I we are on the subject, does any Hyundai models share platforms with its baby brother Kia?? I'm not as knowledgeable about the Korean makes because I've only recently gotten interested in them, like I am about the Japanese and Germans so I'm not sure about Korean platforms!
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    while I fully understand and will even concede that Hyundai has made some rapid progress in the last few years, I will point to things like the VW/Phaeton debacle that was a mere 5 years ago before I will admit to 'old school' thinking - definitely believe that Hyundai may be changing faster than the consumer's ability to recognize it.
  • toyetoye Member Posts: 351
    Didn't VW go from a 25-30k vehicle to $75-80K in one swoop while the Hyundai went from a $25-30k to sucessful $35-43k with the Genesis and now they are going to do a $35-43k to $55-62K with the introduction of the Equus. Which much more gradual and much less $$ difference than the failed VW experiment.
  • toyetoye Member Posts: 351
    The people's reaction in that video is the same reaction that I get with my Genesis.

    Now you put the new Sonata, Tuscan, Genesis and coming this summer the Equus and 4 more in the next year or so. The same reaction and revelation will continue to follow Hyundai. What other car companies do we know of that is garnering this type of attention and admiration. Perhaps Mazda?
  • carnaughtcarnaught Member Posts: 3,497
    edited May 2010
    The Equus looks like a h*ll of a car. It's amazing that this (Korean) company has been able to improve their quality and develop this degree of luxury since they first appeared on the American scene a relatively few short years ago. Too bad GM hasn't been able to accomplish the same thing although the CTS and Lacrosse are a small step in that direction.

    One thing: Hyundai will need to sell and service it in upgraded showrooms which pamper the buyer similar to those of Lexus, Mercedes, etc.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,095
    Another difference might be design...the Phaeton was/is (as it is still sold in Europe) a smooth Teutonic design, where the Equus is an old and kind of weird KDM design...that might make up for some differential when it comes to market acceptance. Some people did buy Phaetons, just as some will buy Equus.
  • toyetoye Member Posts: 351
    See its just a matter of ones opinion as I thought the Phaeton that is being sold in China as very generic and boring on the outside and nice interior. I did see a couple here in Fort Lauderdale and it was nice at the time 5 years ago
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,095
    Yeah, the Phaeton is very boring now...it's not weird though. I think in Europe it sells mainly as a leased exec/company car. It's a big risk for a mainstream brand to venture into that territory.
  • wolverinejoe80wolverinejoe80 Member Posts: 337
    You know when Hyundai has finally arrived when Lexus fans get offended by Equus posts. :) I go to luxury forums alot(not here), and usually german fans don't worry about Hyundai's rapid growth yet, but toyota/lexus fans are perturbed by hyundai's recent design and Equus.

    Seriously, there are many Lexus owners in lexus forum who feel as if the world is coming to an end because of the MotorMan video and many recent hyundai news. they are terrified that maybe just maybe this Equus is as good as their LS460.

    and I got banned because i got into Equus/LS460 debates and they are sick of my hyundai posts. :( basically they concluded that posting Hyundai news in a lexus 'car chat' forum was an obnoxious behavior.

    and they didn't like my bold prediction either. I predicted Hyundai to be #2 asian luxury brand before 2020. :)
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Didn't VW go from a 25-30k vehicle to $75-80K in one swoop while the Hyundai went from a $25-30k to sucessful $35-43k with the Genesis and now they are going to do a $35-43k to $55-62K with the introduction of the Equus.
    the more successful VW Toureg (sp?) a lot more than $30k - the actual price differential isn't nearly as crucial IMO as VW's rather pedestrian and quite mainstream brand perception. The fact of the matter, though, the Phaeton was (is?) is a well executed alternative to some very well respected (and quite German) true luxury cars, price therefore not as much of a handicap in that league as the fact that the thing was labelled a VW.
    Given that the $25k Azera has not sold very well, and that even the $35k Gen sedan sales pale in comparison to the sales figures for other (upscale) sedans in its price category, the question remains, in my mind, has the market really demonstrated that it is ready for even a $30k Hyundai branded product - never mind one that is 60????
  • toyetoye Member Posts: 351
    Oh I forgot to mention that Hyundai launched the Genesis is the worst recession in nearly 30 years and still sold very respectable numbers. As VW launched the Phaeton in bullish era and still failed.

    I met only automobiles in the comparison.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    VW launched the Phaeton in bullish era and still failed
    Kinda illustrates the importance of brand perceptions and reputations doesn't it? Respectable numbers compared to what? Certainly not respectable when compared to the sales volumes of other like priced upscale sedans.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    ...has the market really demonstrated that it is ready for even a $30k Hyundai branded product...

    Do you have any idea how many Veracruzes, Azeras, Genesises, and even Entourages that Hyundai has sold for over $30k in the past few years? Any idea at all? No, I didn't think so. How ever many it was, I expect no number would be good enough for you to think that "the market" (translated: captain2) is ready for a $30k Hyundai branded product.
  • j2jj2j Member Posts: 147
    It also means that the LS400 must have been cross-shopped mostly w/ the C Class and 3 Series and not even the E Class and 5 Series, since it was closer in price to the C and 3.

    "Quite possibly in the same way that some are looking at the Genesis over a G in that it offers a larger car at a similar price."

    ^ So that would imply that the Genesis is a luxury vehicle since you insinuate that the Genesis is a competitor to the G.

    And really, pretty much all LS400 owners would have a conniption if they were told that their Lexus was more a C Class competitor, instead of an S Class competitor.
  • j2jj2j Member Posts: 147
    this is the first I've heard of this and obviously a coupla steps in the right direction if any 'room' is to be found. Gotta keep those 'luxury' Genesis branded products and customers away from those mere Hyundai products & buyers - that's the kind of thing that works here in the good ole US of A! I actually suggested this early on, in this very forum - somebody listening? Nah, not likely

    Uhh, your point was already MOOT since Hyundai has plans to launch a lux brand in 5-6 years time (which I had already stated a no. of time - I guess you weren't listening).

    Besides, it's not like there hasn't been "mixing" in auto retail sales before.

    Prior to the sale of Aston and Jaguar, the Manhattan Ford dealership sold Astons, Jags, Lincolns and Fords on the same floor, albeit w/ each having their "separate" showroom.

    Not much diff. from what Hyundai is doing w/ the Equus - each Hyundai dealership selling the Equus is required to display the Equus in a separate showroom.

    Anyway, it's not like the 60K-80K+ Corvettes, GT-Rs and Land Cruisers aren't sold alongside the more mundane Chevys, Nissans and Toyotas.
  • j2jj2j Member Posts: 147
    "you obviously aren't reading my posts and following the herd here in assumming I'm some sort of Hyundai basher. Quite to the contrary actually. Yes the comment that the Sonata could be used as 'entry level' in the same manner as a MB C or 3 series BMW is laughable but it is NOT because it is the Sonata in this case isn't a fine car. It is because it is a Hyundai. The same comment would apply for the Camry, Accord, Fusion or whatever - they, along with the Sonata are ALL mass marketed 'appliances' - something that the BMW 3 is decidedly not - despite being reasonably high volume."

    Give me a break - you totally misread the whole point the other poster was making about the 3 Series.

    And speaking of appliances the fact that the ES does so well, given what the car actually is, is yet another testimony for the importance of brand reputation,. brand recognition and the American consumer's sensitivity to both - and even another illustration why Hyundai will never get there as a 'luxury' brand.

    And yet, the Lexus branded GS (the most closely related to the Genesis), despite the Lexus brand reputation, etc. over the past couple of years has been a sales failure (selling about 500-600 units a month).

    And it appears that the brand new Infiniti M may very well be outsold by the Genesis this year as well.

    And try understanding the distinction btwn luxury brand and product.

    I never stated that Hyundai is or ever will be a "luxury" brand.
  • j2jj2j Member Posts: 147

    It is Hyundai can make a list like this:

    http://www.autoweek.com/article/20100429/CARNEWS/100429801

    1. BMW $21.82 -- (25)

    2. Toyota $21.77 -- (26)

    3. Honda $14.30 -- (46)

    4. Mercedes $13.74 -- (53)

    5. Porsche $12.02 -- (65)

    6. Nissan $8.61 -- (86)

    7. Ford $7.04 -- *

    8. VW $6.99 -- *

    9. Audi $3.62 -- *

    10. Renault $3.26


    Gee, I can come up w/ brand rankings that say different.

    2009 Interbrand Ranking
    -----------------------
    Automotive Brand Value Change Top 100
    Ranking Brand (US $Bil) Y-o-Y Ranking
    ------- ------- -------- ----- -------
    1 Toyota 31.3 -8% 8
    --- ------- ---- --- ---
    2 M-Benz 23.9 -7% 12
    --- ------- ---- --- ---
    3 BMW 21.7 -7% 15
    --- ------- ---- --- ---
    4 Honda 17.8 -7% 18
    --- ------- ---- --- ---
    5 Ford 7.0 -11% 49
    --- ------- ---- --- ---
    6 VW 6.5 -8% 55
    --- ------- ---- --- ---
    7 Audi 5.0 -7% 65
    --- ------- ---- --- ---
    8 Hyundai 4.6 -5% 69
    --- ------- ---- --- ---
    9 Porsche 4.2 -8% 74
    --- ------- ---- --- ---
    10 Ferrari 3.5 0% 88
    --- ------- ---- --- ---
    11 Lexus 3.15 -12% 96
    --- ------- ---- --- ---

    http://www.tradingmarkets.com/.site/news/Stock%20News/2535746/
  • j2jj2j Member Posts: 147
    "Since reliability, though, seems to be your primary motivation I would suggest to you two things:
    1) there do remain better choices than (most) Hyundai products in that regard and,
    2) product reliability has historically meant little to those in the market for true luxury cars."


    Talk about speaking from both sides.

    First off, among mainstream brands, there aren't that many better choices w/ regard to reliability.

    And product reliability has been crucial to the success of Lexus in the US.
  • j2jj2j Member Posts: 147
    "well if that is the case with the BusinessWeek/Interbrand study, then there is no reason why Hyundai shouldn't get their butt in gear and restructure both Hyundai and Kia, so that Kia becomes the mainstream brand to compete with Toyota, Honda, Nissan, GM, and Ford while Hyundai competes with all the other luxury divisions.

    Hyundai then is going to have to get rid of most of their models below the Azera and either downgrade/integrate them into the Kia brand, either by expanding Kia models or getting rid of some all ready existing Kia models and making for instance, the Kia Sonata, Kia Elantra, Kia Tiburon, etc etc! "


    Yeah, getting rid of the Sonata, Santa Fe, Elantra and Tuscon is real smart.

    Again, it's a moot point since Hyundai is planning on launching a lux brand in 5-6 years time.
  • j2jj2j Member Posts: 147
    "A good portion of what makes a luxury brand is the exclusivity (and price premium) attached to the products so branded."

    Yeah, cuz the Mercedes A and B Classes are so "exclusive", not to mention all the E Class taxis in Europe.
  • j2jj2j Member Posts: 147
    "Another difference might be design...the Phaeton was/is (as it is still sold in Europe) a smooth Teutonic design, where the Equus is an old and kind of weird KDM design...that might make up for some differential when it comes to market acceptance. Some people did buy Phaetons, just as some will buy Equus."

    While the Equus is a bit too "old style" for my taste - it nonetheless, still looks more aggressive (w/ the horizontally-slatted grill) looks more aggressive/sleek than the snore S Class.

    As for design, the Phaeton's design was a big part for its failure (along w/ its overinflated price-tag).

    The Phaeton had the VW corporate front and rear fascias - few people wanted to drive around in a larger and much more expensive Passat (there's a reason why the Equus looks nothing like the Sonata/Elantra and why the LS looks little like the Camry/Corolla).
  • j2jj2j Member Posts: 147
    "Given that the $25k Azera has not sold very well, and that even the $35k Gen sedan sales pale in comparison to the sales figures for other (upscale) sedans in its price category, the question remains, in my mind, has the market really demonstrated that it is ready for even a $30k Hyundai branded product - never mind one that is 60????"

    - The Azera was a decent, but hardly an award-winning product like the Genesis sedan (plus, Hyundai didn't market the Azera at all; that'll change w/ the next-gen Azera).

    The Genesis sedan outsold all other import E segment sedans aside from the E Class and 5 Series in 2009; outselling the Lexus GS and Infiniti M by a 2:1 margin. And from the looks of it, the Genesis sedan may very well outsell the new M this year.

    And again, Hyundai isn't planning on big sales for the Equus, which is why they are only planning on an annual alottment of about 2K a year (the 1st year's alottment is already taken; those interested in the Equus get put on the waiting list).

    Hyundai is using the Equus has a "halo" vehicle to get the public used to the idea of a luxury vehicle from Hyundai - thus paving the way for a smoother introduction of its luxury brand (why is there a need to have to keep repeating this?).
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    I never said they should get rid of those models. If Hyundai launches its own separate luxury division at some future point then they wouldn't have to do anything to those models!
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Well, the original LS was priced more in the C-Class range. From a driving dynamics standpoint, I'd say the LS' closest competitor is a Buick Park Avenue. No offense! I love the Park Ave!
  • ergsumergsum Member Posts: 146
    Interesting. Who would have thought we would see an article like this ten, or even five years ago.

    Hyundai vs BMW
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    And yet, the Lexus branded GS (the most closely related to the Genesis), despite the Lexus brand reputation, etc. over the past couple of years has been a sales failure (selling about 500-600 units a month).

    a convenient comparison for you perhaps, but the Gen is not 'closley related' to the GS, the Gen being larger slotted in between that and the LS. Furthermore the GS is Lexus' attempt at a 5 series competitor something that Lexus has come up short on pretty much since the model's inception. A step child of sorts and a faulty comparison IMO. RWD BS not withstanding, the Gen Sedans closest Lexus competitor is the ES, if for no other reason other than price. .
    And anything that is really competing in the upscale sedan category will likely outsell the higher priced luxury sedans, only makes sense.
    Never have denied that the Gen is not a decently luxurious sedan, only that a true luxury sedan must also be luxury branded (and sold) else we all could be driving 'luxury' Grand Marquises and spending even less money than what Hyundai is hgetting for the Gen.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    thus paving the way for a smoother introduction of its luxury brand (why is there a need to have to keep repeating this?)
    which is all, I have ever said, for HYUNDAI to 'find room' in the luxury market, they must establish a luxury brand (why is there a need to keep repeating this?) :P
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,095
    HILARIOUS article...I know AOL is hard up for dough, but come on :shades:
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,095
    I don't see anything aggressive about it - it is weirdo and rather garish KDM design, an Azera greenhouse, tall proportions, and you know the "snore" S also has a horizontally slatted grille. I don't look at an Equus and think performance and handling, or anything aggressive.

    The Phaeton didn't flatly fail in every market, you know. It's still in production, still being sold.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,095
    edited May 2010
    The LS as usually equipped when new cost around 40K 20 years ago - E-class money. There was no C-class then, and the 190E cost around 30K. Funny how thnigs change and at the same time remain the same - a new base C is still barely over 30K, a base E is in the upper 40s. We have Lexus to thank for that, and Hyundai will probably add to it as well.

    Lexus is the Japanese Buick, replacing Buick for many Americans. I think that market will be where the Equus gets any sales...I don't see any en masse defection from the big Germans.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    yep, as this author even seems to recognize, the sophistication and integration that makes cars like the 535 (and others that truly compete with it ) what they are- does cost some extra $.
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    I mean this isn't the only reason but I've read many reviews over the years and I think the reason why the GS has not done well for Lexus is that is does not follow or go along with the driving dyanmics that the rest of the Lexus line-up is known for. Many people have commented that it has a harsh/rough ride, is very uncomfortable in the seats, and lacks the refinement the IS, ES, and LS have.

    Since Lexus is known for mushy/soft ride qualities, uber comfort seats/features, etc and refinement, if the GS lacks those Lexus characteristics, it makes sense then that it would not sell well compared to the other Lexus models. Again, I'm not saying these are the only reasons, as I'm sure there are others that just aren't coming to mind right now but it explains a lot.

    It will be interesting to see what Lexus does to the GS with its next redesign!
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