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Toyota is on the Offensive. Will it work?

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  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Ford is starving the NA Ranger to death as it gets ready to close the St Paul plant. Then at sometime in the near future when the 'Chicken Tax' is repealed with Thailand they will bring over their worldclass diesel Rangers that are being sold all over Asia.

    It's just a business decision based on what the future buyer will demand ( diesel ) and one of their thorniest domestic issues ( the UAW in an aging plant ).
  • steverstever YooperlandPosts: 40,171
    I like the size of the Ranger/Mazda B-series, but the ones we get in NA are pretty long in the tooth these days.

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  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Sounds to me like you want it both ways, i.e. cake and eat it.

    First you say Ford resale is great, then you acknowledge the original owner took a huge hit on depreciation on that Ranger and you blame the media for Ford resale being so lousy.

    Pardon me while I laugh. :D

    Then you say *you* were easy on your Toyota pickup's clutch, and later admit it wasn't even your truck in the first place, and that your *son* "was hard on trucks" and did 4 wheeling all the time, and clearly not light duty.

    Off roaders prefer automatics because it's brutal on cluthes, no wonder it went out after 15k miles. I'm shocked that it lasted that long. I bet the GMC was an automatic, the preferred transmission for wheelin'.

    IMHO your son (not you) chose the wrong transmission for someone hard on trucks that goes wheelin' in the worst conditions (as you just stated).

    Yet you blame Toyota?

    This is getting funnier by the minute! :D

    The lack of maintenance on the timing belt is also the owner's fault. If you changed the serpentine belts on a GM, a timing belt is similar, just remove the timimg cover and make a few marks. Dealers send coupons for $300 or less if you're too lazy.

    Again, you blame Toyota?

    Toyota is far from perfect, noone is. My Sienna was delivered without an antennae (some models with JBL have them in-glass, but mine doesn't have the JBL sound). The service guys got greasy finger prints on my interior, so I'll service it myself from now on. They're certainly experiencing growing pains right now, because of the added volume from the last couple of years.

    Your arguments are inconsistent, though, and you've contradict yourself more than once.
  • grbeckgrbeck Posts: 2,361
    I'm no Toyota fan, and I have no intentions of ever buying one, but the company's success in the U.S. market can't be ignored. Like it or not, Toyota succeeds because its products are meeting customer expectations - including reliability.

    People aren't buying Toyotas because they have been duped by Consumer Reports, they possess an irrational hatred of the Big Three, or they will be shunned by their neighbors for parking a Chevy in the driveway.

    Car companies, like people, earn their reputations. If Toyota delivers several years of consistently bad products, its reputation will start swirling the bowl, too.

    Actually, it will happen faster for Toyota than it did for the domestics, because in the age of the internet (and sites such as this one), word spreads much faster of serious problems.

    And, if we are swapping anecdotal stories: my mother-in-law's 1999 Malibu, by 70,000 miles, had a manifold intake gasket seal on the V-6 that was about ready to go; had a HVAC fan that did not work in the first position; and was making several clunking noises in the suspension.

    My parent's 1999 Park Avenue had a ruined engine thanks to the manifold intake gasket failure, but this occurred at 113,000 miles, so I'll cut GM a pass on this one. Otherwise, the car has been reliable.

    My co-worker's 2000 Impala has gone through pads and rotors at an alarming rate, and experienced the manifold gasket intake failure, but the dealer caught it before there was serious engine damage (and was going to make her pay full price for the replacement, until I found the TSB).

    My wife has a 2005 Focus with 48,000 miles and so far it has had two problems - the wiper motor went out last winter (during the worst snowstorm of the season), but the dealer did fix it at a reduce cost, even though it was out of warranty. The CD player is on the fritz. Otherwise, the car has been solid, although let's hope that for the next-generation Focus, Ford spends more than $2.95 on the entire interior.

    So, for alot of us, problematic domestic cars are not too far in the past, which is why Toyota looks good to many people, even with their vehicles' blandness and dull styling.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Except we won't get the next generation Focus. We get yet another face-lift of what is now probably a 10 year old platform. :sick:

    Though Toyota has delayed the Corolla quite a bit, too. At least it'll be a new one.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,899
    Pardon me while I laugh

    Laugh all you like. I can respond to your twisted spin all day long.

    I never once said my son was 4 wheeling in MY 1994 Toyota POC. If he had made the payments as prescribed it would have been his Toyota POC. The clutch went out at 11k miles driving on the roads of San Diego. When he came to spend the summer with me in Alaska he learned how to drive and ran the wheels off my GM 4X4. No Toyota would take the punishment he put that GM truck through while I was at work in Prudhoe.

    If you want to see who is twisting the truth and inconsistent a quick peek in the mirror would be all that is needed.

    Toyota is suffering the same growing pains they started with in the early 1960s.

    Please post the places I have contradicted myself or was inconsistent. Just because I do not give every detail of every anecdote does not give you an open forum to inject half truths to back up your total bias toward Toyota.

    If you want me to post all the places you have added to my anecdote to make your opinion seem plausible. I would be happy to do so.

    I got all day. And my desk looks out over the city. I just filled the bird feeders so the humming birds and orioles keep me amused when blogging no longer amuses me.
  • steverstever YooperlandPosts: 40,171
    I got all day. And my desk looks out over the city. I just filled the bird feeders so the humming birds and orioles keep me amused when blogging no longer amuses me.

    I think our Bullock's have flown - the sugar water in the feeder isn't getting empty every three days now. The hummers are thick though.

    This is posting by the way - for blogging you need to go here. CarSpace members get free car blogs with multiple designs to choose to showcase your personality and style. Create your own blog and have your voice heard in the automotive industry. Comment on others' blogs for even more fun. (I can just imagine some of the contents now. :shades:).

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  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Inconsistency #1:

    Post 539: "My son was having problems with his truck"

    Post 555: "MY 1994 Toyota"

    Why don't you sort out who owned it and then let us know? :D

    Perhaps that makes sense to you, but to us, reading your posts, it's inconsisent.

    Inconsistency #2:

    Post 539: "Another Toyota myth, resale value"

    Post 542: "The original owner took a serious hit because of bad press killing the value"

    You were comparing your used Ranger implying it favored the Toyota in resale. The opposite was true - you got a bargain (congrats, great dealing by the way) because Ford resale was dismal, far worse than Toyota's.

    Post 545: "I have never done anything but fluid, brakes and tires on the last 5 GM trucks. Oh and changed a couple $26 serpentine belts"

    Post 537: "Some timing belt issue occurred under 60k miles for another $1300"

    It would have been a $26 issue if you had changed that serpentine belt, as you found so easy to do on your GMs. You're handy enough to spend the time on your GMs, yet you neglected your Toyota. Your fault. Accept responsibility for your mistake.

    Post 545: "If you have to do all kinds of expensive maintenance other than fluid & filter changes, where is the economy there?"

    All gagrice posts are inconsistent with that.

    You were not willing to perform the schedule maintenance required for your Toyota. Perhaps you can argue the Toyota was higher maintenance and you chose to ignore the manufacturer's recommendations, but that simply kills your theory that your truck was unreliable.

    Had it been maintained properly, as per the manufacturer's schedule, the expensive belt failure could have been prevented.

    Did GM use timing chains on those V6s back then, or were you just lucky?

    Funny thing is my Sienna has a timing chain. Maintenance-free. Perfect car for someone like you who ignores timing belt change intervals!
  • mackabeemackabee Posts: 4,709
    The clutch went out at 11k miles driving on the roads of San Diego. When he came to spend the summer with me in Alaska he learned how to drive and ran the wheels off my GM 4X4.

    So he didn't know how to drive the Toyota? :confuse:
    Mack
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Posts: 4,175
    how Gagrices' posts have anything to do with Toyotas offensive... in 2007. :blush:

    I mean, no offense but the topic seems to be dominated by complaints about 14 and 34 year old vehicles which have zero impact on where Toyota is headed in the future...

    Now, from my perspective it's a mixed bag:

    The Tundra, the RAV4 and the Prius are strong efforts which show Toyota is serious about putting out a class competitive, if not class leading product. However, they are also serious about getting the Tundra into owners hands if it takes big cash on the hoods to do it. But, these folks would have probably NEVER given the Tundra a chance but once they get their hands on them? That seems like an offensive move Hopefully they'll be back. I know a few people who are sold on yotas based on their trucks.

    Word is the Prius may deliver 100mpg offensive move

    The RAV4 brings a 265hp V6 that is capable of 26mpg (RAV4world.com has a couple of people) offensive move

    On the other hand, the Corolla is on an extended cycle. It's ready for a redesign, hopefully they put a "Camry-like" effort into delivering a competitive product. That would be an offensive move

    The highlander, while a nice update may not have gone far enough to be a standout. But there's a class exclusive hybrid to boast about there. Not really offensive, more trying not to be (playing it safe)

    The Sienna is certainly class competitive, but with the supposed "shrinking segment" the next Sienna has to be something special to attract buyers away from SUV's and x-overs. Offensive needed

    Toyota still has no sporty models and as mentioned above, they have neglected the manual trasmission buyers. That's offensive, maybe not in a good way

    Gagrice, what do you think of the offensive in 2007?
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,899
    Gagrice, what do you think of the offensive in 2007?

    I think I have made it clear. I find Toyota as a company OFFENSIVE!

    You & Steve are right, this thread is not about my problems with Toyota. I will try not to intrude on sacred ground.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Toyota's best offensive move was to switch to timing chains for their popular V6s.

    Even gagrice himself must appreciate the fact that they switched to a no-maintenance chain rather than a belt with 60k replacement intervals that people like him overlook.

    So in an ironic turn-around, gagrice's posts have shed light on a major Toyota offensive - maintenance-free timing chains!
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Posts: 4,175
    lol. I knew there was a light at the end of the tunnel.

    Time to close the topic, question answered! J/K
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Posts: 4,175
    I don't think its sacred ground man, it is just a discussion. If you don't like Toyota because of past experiences, there is nothing wrong with it.

    But why not let the forum know what Toyota could do better. Jeeze, I've never owned one in my life and I have all kinds of opinions, good and bad about them. They (rightfully IMO) are ready to steal the top sales spot from GM so they have some kind of offensive going...

    You're in to diesels right? Well, what models do you think can benefit the most?

    Don't buy the whole hybrid hype? Tell the forum why you don't agree with it.

    Don't like Toyota clutches? I don't know what to say... ;)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I'm glad this topic was brought up. :shades:

    A little research shows Toyota's new V6s do indeed have timing chains. The 1GR (4.0l) versions went in the following trucks:

    2003 Toyota 4Runner
    2003 Toyota Land Cruiser (Europe)
    2003 Toyota Land Cruiser Prado (Asia Pacific)
    2005 Toyota Tacoma
    2005 Toyota Tundra
    2005 Toyota Fortuner (Middle East)
    2007 Toyota FJ Cruiser

    The 2GR version makes it into these models:

    2005 Toyota Avalon
    2006 Toyota Aurion
    2006 Toyota RAV4 V6
    2006 Toyota Estima V6
    2007 Toyota Previa V6
    2007 Toyota Tarago V6
    2007 Toyota Camry V6
    2007 Toyota Sienna
    2007 Lexus ES 350
    2007 Lexus RX 350
    2008 Toyota Kluger
    2008 Toyota Highlander
    2006 Toyota Crown Athlete (Japan)
    2006 Lexus GS 350 (Japan)
    2006 Lexus GS 450h
    2006 Lexus IS 350 (Japan and United States)
    2007 Lexus GS 350 (United States)

    The reason I bring this up is that a timing belt failure due to neglect, as reported here, is no longer a possibility in any of these Toyotas.

    Timing belts can't break if they don't even exist!

    So this a non-issue. The new Tacoma uses a chain. So does the new big V8 in the Tunrda, by the way. So you'll never see a timing belt failure there.

    Sorry to disappoint you gagrice, but what happened to you will not ever happen to these, no use huffing and puffing about it any more. :P
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,899
    All my GM engines were V8s. You only change the spark plugs at 100k miles. Change oil and filters on a regular basis. No problems. I don't think you understand what it is like to be working remote while your son drives yours/his vehicle. I won't make excuses for his inattention to maintenance. There is a big difference between a broken serpentine belt on a GM V8 and a Toyota 4 banger. The belt breaks on the V8 and you put a new one on and away you go. You break one on a 4 cylinder like the Toyota PU engine and it is a $1300 bill.

    You have to understand where I am coming from. It was the timing gear that went out twice in 25k miles on the Land Cruiser. I would expect a little more than 35k more miles after 30 years of R&D.

    Expecting me to read the manual from 3000 plus miles away and foreseeing those kind of poor design problems is not justified in my book. I guess that is where GM shines over Toyota. You just drive them and don't worry about reading a manual. The only thing I ever look at the manual for is setting the clock and recommended oil changes. I have never done a 30k or 60k mile check up at a GM dealer.

    I have said this before. If Toyota is first to the field with a mid sized diesel PU. I would give it a shot.

    Personally I think the other automakers are going to catch Toyota with their hybrid pants down.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,687
    No 4-cylinder Toyota pick-up (or Tacoma) has ever used a timing belt. They have all used timing chains. In fact, the '94 still used what has become perhaps Toyota's most renowned engine ever: the 22R-E. I have never had a timing chain break on me in any of the many I have owned, so it is most unfortunate if that happened to gagrice.

    And as for timing belts, the Tundra 4.7 V-8 still uses one - I think that and the last of the V-6 Solaras still using the old 3.3L engine are the last Toyota models to use a belt instead of a chain. The Solara is due to be phased out in the next year, of course, and I suppose the Tundra/LC's 4.7 will be too when the new LC arrives next year.

    mackabee: the problem with those xA Release Series is they were way too much money extra (over the base model) with way too little extra content - most of it was cosmetic.

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,899
    Thank you for setting the record straight. All I know I was at work in Alaska and the truck broke and it was towed to Toyota. They said it was something to do with timing, and nailed me for $1300.

    Hopefully they have better designed engines now. They still don't build a diesel for the US market so are not on my radar.

    PS
    Does my wife's LS400 have a belt or a chain? We have had all the maintenance done and I did not see a bill for that.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,687
    All the Lexus LS 400/430s have had a timing belt, and in 1990 the recommended change interval was still 60K miles. I think you could probably get away with 90K for the interval, but I wouldn't push it much beyond there. And it is not listed as an interference engine, so if it breaks all you do is stop, it doesn't add $4000 to the cost of repair!

    I never underswtood the fascination carmakers had with timing belts in the 90s. The weight savings had to be so minimal as not to matter, and the noise from a chain vs that of a belt seems negligible to me too.

    While timing chains have no official change interval and will usually give you lots of advance warning when they are getting old and stretched, some people still recommend changing them anyway at a certain mileage (usually 100K or 150K among those I've heard) just to avoid the engine jumping timing.

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • mackabeemackabee Posts: 4,709
    Ok, what's the difference between posting and blogging? I'm serious.
    Mackabee
  • mackabeemackabee Posts: 4,709
    PS
    "Does my wife's LS400 have a belt or a chain? We have had all the maintenance done and I did not see a bill for that."

    gag, you do know that's a Toyota right?
    ;)
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,899
    Not much according to my wife. She comes in and says are you going to do anything today but Blog? So I go out and get some yard work done. I think it is more semantics than anything. I enjoy the debate as long as it does not get personal or hateful.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    yes the 4.7L and the 3.3L are the last hold overs from the 90's. Everything else has a chain.

    As noted previously one of the most amazing things of all is the inherent efficiency of the V6's. They are all the same GR's with slightly different applications. This is over a million engines alone in the US. This GR V6 has now been extended to China and to Japan. One single V6 across millions of vehicles. And to top that off in building it they saved $1000 per engine during production.

    Whoaaa.. That's a thousand million(s) of dollars saved ( $1 Billion )....every year, forever.

    Now that's an offensive.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,687
    Interesting note here: even as timing belts have almost been eliminated over at Toyota, the Lexus store is selling mostly models with older engine designs with belt-driven cam shafts: the 4.3 V-8 which was in the LS through the '07 MY, and is still in the SC and GS uses a belt. So does the 4.7 in the LX470 and GX470.

    Only the models using the new modular 2.5/3.5 have timing chains. Lexus is selling a lot of old product right now. They should extend the wheelbase of the RX, call it the RX-L or something, and cancel the GX altogether. And the SC and GS should go to using the new engine in the '08 LS. Will there possibly be a model update for the SC any time soon here? It seems like it must be overdue.

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • steverstever YooperlandPosts: 40,171
    Around here, forum posts generally are multi-party conversations that may or may not continue on one subject (thread) or may diverge into all sorts of off-shots mostly related to the overall topic of discussion. Some threads may go on for months or years.

    A blog (or a blog post if you will) is made by one person and is more of a dairy where you post your thoughts on a daily or less frequent basis.

    If you set up a blog, you'll be the only person who can make a blog entry and that's the main hook for that blog entry. Anyone will be able to comment on your CarSpace blog, and you can engage with others in the comments, but because blogging is done on an ongoing basis, the comments tend to be active for a day or three, and then everyone moves on to chew on your next missive. It's more of a soapbox and less collaborative in some ways that a forum discussion.

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  • mackabeemackabee Posts: 4,709
    Ok. I got it. I may start one soon! :blush:
    Mackabee
  • steverstever YooperlandPosts: 40,171
    That'd be perfect for you - you could start a story and drag the blog posts out over 6 or 8 weeks before getting to the finish. :shades:

    Some bloggers have taken their posts over the course of a year or so and made a book out of them. How about "Tales from the Tower?"

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  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,079
    >could start a story and drag the blog posts out over 6 or 8 weeks before getting to the finish.

    Don't encourage our friend to drag the stories out more. Some of us hang on these episodes more than American Idol each week. We are waiting for the next post from Mack...
  • steverstever YooperlandPosts: 40,171
    Heh, a 6 or 8 week time frame would shorten some of Mack's stories.

    But they are sure worth waiting for!

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  • goldsuvgoldsuv Posts: 51
    When I looked in to a Toyota product, I thought the value was terrible. It costs Toyota $1000 to build the 3.5 L v6 (see http://blogs.edmunds.com/.ee8f8d9). They had a NET profit of 10 billion dollars last year.None of their Simple Slim cost cutting is going back to the consumer. Its laughable that they can charge $40,0000 for a car with a $1000
    engine.
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