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You seem to be the most knowledgeable poster here, so i direct this to you.
I am the original owner of a 2007 HCH. My total average MPG (as displayed on the dashboard, aggregate since incept, is 50.9). This display is always conservative compared to my calculations. Every tankful I average between 52.0 and 55.0 MPG. I drive in the 2nd lane from the right on Los Angeles freeways, 25 miles each way to work and back, 5 days a week. I get 500+ miles on a tankful. My total average calculated MPG since incept is greater than 52.4 MPG. I also drive a maximum of 39MPH on surface streets, and 58MPH on freeways. I accelerate gently and decelerate with an eye towards battery charging. My vehicle has never been serviced by anyone but a single reliable (though pricey) Honda Dealer, and I have declined to have the IMA firmware update performed, which was offered about a year or two ago, which is my prerogative. I just crested 60K miles a few days ago. My MPG blows away the numbers reported by friends and family who own Priuses. This makes me smile.
This morning the IMA warning light came on for the first time. The car exhibited no ill effects, but I drove it straight to the dealer. The IMA is covered by a 150K mile warranty. After investigating, the dealer announced that the IMA battery pack must be replaced, AND in doing so I could no longer opt out of the firmware update. I asked if there was an upgrade pathway that would get my battery pack replaced with the LiIon batteries of the 2012 HCH, instead of the old tech NimH batteries (which were clearly inferior). Nope, same for same, Fine, I tried.
Now on to my question. So, what can I now expect in the way of changes in performance? It is my understanding that the firmware update essentially alters the algorithm for charging and dialing in/out the IMA, so that the weighting is more toward preserving the NiMH batteries, than maintaining better gas mileage. With my rather sedate driving habits, will I even be affected? I have seen some people post that they saw a dramatic 10% to 20% reduction in fuel economy, but many also posted that they drive much faster, and more aggressively.
I guess I will find out for myself tomorrow when I get my car back from the dealer, but I just wondered if anyone here has had a similar experience.
Thanks in advance!
That is 8 years from the in-service date (date originally sold). If you were under the time and mileage when you went to the dealer, you are covered. If you are under the date but over mileage but still under 88,200 miles, (5% over), then Honda will give you a 50% "goodwill" price ($1500), but only if you get upset and complain (it will take a few days as they "consult the regional rep").
If you are beyond those ranges, search the web for a replacement battery that is new or refurbished (a pack straight out of a junkyard will die in 8 months due to cell imbalance), or have yours repaired. Any of these options will save you quite a bit of money.
I wasn't able to do anything except get in the rental car and drive home stunned and wondering how I could have been feeling so great about my car a week ago and now wanting to cut my wrists for being such a 'dumb' buyer to buy a vehicle that will need something so costly so soon. The Service Manager assured me the replacement was fully guaranteed for 3 years/50,000, but all I could think was, 'Great - at 3 years + 1 day or 50,001 miles, I will need another one. Seemed my savings in gas was going to be spent on IMA systems.
Then I began looking online and found a reference to Edmunds and here I am reading so much information about the problem I am having. I will get to the dealer tomorrow morning posthaste to wave the warranty and ask the Service Manager, "What gives?!"
Should I get a second opinion? After discovering the warranty oversight, I'm a little skeptical about the problem as originally presented to me. Also, a little worried that they might 'mess' with something else out of spite. What do you think? Any other suggestions (that are legal, that is)?
A few days later the new battery arrives, I drive it in to the dealer, and 3 hours later, the car is driving good as new! No charge. Mileage is back up, "recals" are rare, and auto-stop is frequent.
I am sad that a 2009 with 50k miles already needed a new battery. I agree with the other posters that letting your car sit for too long ( I was bike commuting for a few months and driving infrequent) can degrade and unbalance the cells. Glad it is covered by warranty, I just hope I don't need batteries every 3 years and 50k miles...
I replaced the front disks at 90K, and then again at 160K (although the noise was caused by a rocking getting lodged in a pocket in the caliber). I have never adjusted the valves. I have never changed the plugs. I have changed the cab and air filters when Honda offers (I buy them from the parts department... takes literally less than 5 minutes to change).
General observations:
Mileage: If I go 55mph or less, I can get 50mpg. If I go 65mph I get closer to 45mpg and if I go 75mph I get closer to 40mpg. Around town stop and start I get around 43 the way I drive. The mileage tends to degrade as I get closer to the 7.5K mile oil change. And it gets even worse when I get close to the 30K transmission fluid change. I immediately notice the difference with the tranny fluid changes. The oil changes are more difficult to detect but the engine gets a little quieter. Because I take the same commute routes every day (for the last almost 5 years) I have pretty good data. I reset the mileage after each tank fillup. I used to log it manually but found that the speedometer mileage was a bit more pessimistic than the actual but a whole lot easier to keep track of.
I almost never take the RPM's above 3500 and NEVER take them above 4000. Why? It adds so little to the horsepower but consumes much, much more gas. I contend that anyone who never takes their RPM's above 3500 and gets their transmission fluid changed regularly with will get more than 40mpg. I have had only two tanks since I owned the car get less than 40mpg. One was driving through the desert going 80+ with AC on (115 outside). The other was when my wife drove in 100+ weather driving around town with the AC on.
I think that around town miles will be impacted most by a poor battery. Highway mileage is more a function of the driver.
One adder. I have not had any power steering problems since they changed the IMA battery. I presume that means that the battery was the source of the problem.
My mileage was still above 40mpg and the car ran fine , the engine stopped at stop lights and such. I hope refusing the update last year won't affect my IMA warranty.
If I'm well informed CT has a 10 year/150k warranty on the CVT low emission hybrid.
Beware of what may be ahead; call one or two dealers if they are available in your area and just ask for an guesstimate of IMA replacement for the year and model of your hybrid. Don't give away too much about your car, refusal of software, etc. Just ask for an estimated quote. Keep in mind that they quoted me $2500+ and then, after one screw-up after another for 5 days, they offered to pick up 1/2 the cost. I paid $1377. An independent repair shop told me that would be about what they would charge if they could do the work and they knew they were still making a profit.
I wish you luck. BTW here is the 800 number for Honda 1-800-999-1099 (hours M-F 6am-5pm PST). They have an "out of warranty assistance" department if you should need to ask for assistance. They do work hand-in-hand with the dealer, but there may be some response if you tell them how unhappy you are with HONDA (if that becomes the case, as it did for me). I advise contact them BEFORE the work is authorized by you if you think you are having a difficult time.
you said that honda claimed you got no right to a new battery cuz it was "normal". so how did you "get a new battery"? your own $$?
DEETS:
-HondaCivHyb 2004
-first owner
-125K miles
-problems galore :lemon: including slipping, 02 sensors [recently replaced]
-latest issue: IMA
IMA
Orange IMA light came on couple days ago - late in the weekend. Didn't drive much this past weekend. Then the red battery light on yesterday - Monday morning. She made a funny coughing sound when on ignition. That's when I saw the red battery light. Very poor acceleration. Iffy braking. No battery charge whatsoever. Drove her to dealership same day. They quote ~$3500 for refursbished battery [they say only the shell is refurbished]. I beg and plead for Honda to help me out. I should hear back tomorrow on whatever discounted rate is available.
We had one of our hottest summers here in TX if that's a factor :shades: .
My questions:
>Honda says the car is driveable and I can still drive it as I make a decision. True? Safe? Am I harming anything else?
>If I don't replace battery, can I sell? Who would buy her?
>If I do replace battery, better chances of selling?
>Do the software updates have anything to do with my problems, as I see some forumites have alluded to?
>Am I just "lucky" to have had it drive this long w the battery intact? Was this just a matter of time?
I am sooo sad. I don't feel anger, irritation at this point... just sadness. This car has given me such problems for being so expensive and supposed to save resources... please let me know some thoughts before I jump off a cliff - more like drive off a cliff...
Thanks
if the red battery light (I don't mean the IMA light) is on all the time, then you cannot drive the car. If it goes out when you give it a little gas, then you can drive it, but avoid idling it for long periods of time (also keep it below 3800rpm).
At this point, you should fix it (let's face it-a part wore out) and drive it another 8 years before the battery needs to be replaced again. O2 sensors and catalytic converters are a 3-5 year item with this car due to the IMA system, and you've already repaired the CVT issues, so this should be a low-cost car to keep running, and it gets excellent gas mileage.
Don't get the software updates if you are getting an aftermaket battery.
Not fun and definitely not desirable, but definitely drivable - especially if you turn off the AC (which should automatically be disabled in the kind of IMA failure you experienced).
Anyway, I'm glad you got a new battery under warranty.
Thanks!
btw I was getting 45mpg for the first 2 years and b4 the failure was down to 36.
2 bad transmissions one covered by extended warranty the other not. Need a 2800 battery to pass a emissions test. Need all the moter mounts replaced, I am at 170000 miles. I would to God I had bought a 5 speed Civic at the time was 10k less. live and learn and the Greenies can jump in the river
Contact me via email.
Yes, but the lbs/hp is identical to a Prius with a depleted pack and LOWER than a Land Rover Discovery.
It's slow, but it's still faster than a Yugo, a VW Lupo, etc.
Contact me via email.
to be continued
The danger I find is that if you are trying to accelerate when the IMA decides to do a recal, then the car will hesitate for about a second. It's like it's expecting IMA assist and it takes a second to decide it won't get it. Only then does the gas engine give power. If you are trying to merge into busy traffic when this happens, which is likely if you're just starting out in the morning when you get your morning recal, then you are in a quite hazardous situation.
Is it possible that you've got to put your foot into it further to get over the stumble?
I'm definitely not giving up. Fortunately I bought an extended warranty when I got the car, so I've still got nearly 20K miles before warranty is up.
Thanks for telling everyone about your encouraging results!
After getting this update, identical trips and even trips with just me driving to Phoenix, completely different story. City driving is about the same if only slightly lower at 42 - 47MPG. At speeds past 60 however, very poor MPG. Now on rides to Phoenix the car burns much more gas and feels like a 4 speed.
For example: at 75 MPH the car now remains at 2800-3300 RPM to maintain speed, its almost as if someone took away the overdrive. The trip is louder too. Then the Gas milage drops to 30-38 (from 55-60). I used to be able to drive to and from Phoenix with more than half a tank close to 3/4, now I come back with 1/4 of a tank.
Not only that, since I'm already at 3k RPM if I need to pass the engine goes to Red Line! It never did that before the update and can be quite scary. Speed limits in TX go up to 85 running at over 4000+ RPM just to maintain speed on a flat road. Near the Grand Canyon on a road with a 65 speed limit and slight incline the car stayed near 6000 RPM for about 15 miles which resulted in a reading of 17 MPG (wish I took a picture) for a ~50 mile odometer trip reset. Going uphill in this car now a challenge where the car red lines all the time and at times it just will not go any faster. Did not have these troubles in previous trips on these same roads.
Honda dealer can't undo the update and Honda customer service stated they cannot do anything to help me and 2 complaints fell on deaf ears. This is my 2nd Honda and with incompetence like this coming from them possibly my last. Apparently correcting a CVT gear ratio is rocket science.
Has anyone else noticed this significant change in how the CVT operates at freeway speeds on the Civic Hybrid? Or know of a solution to this problem?
As to the extended warranty, they had darn well better cover it or I will go ballistic. My dealer has alluded to it a couple of times, as in "well, you've still got X number of miles before your extended warranty expires," so I'm expecting it to be covered.
My Honda service manager is a d*k. When I went in to complain in person, he told me "Honda pays the bills". Huh,,,, maybe your bills but not mine. I am part of paying HONDA's bills by buying their cars (this is my third Honda) and having them serviced at Honda.
This is what I have done lately (I've tried to forget the fact I've been robbed but every time I get in my car it makes me remember!) When I called SVC Mgr. months later, he said "It was because I didn't have low-resistant tires". They make 1 to 2.5 mpg difference, possibly 3. Whenever I mentioned the performance of the BATTERY, he completed ignored my question and would sound irritated.
So I decided to do something. Not saying it will help me but you never know and it makes me feel I'm doing "something". And if "we" owners are pissed off enough to convince Honda we're not dummies or woossies, and we're not going to just "go away" and trade our piece of junk in for something that works so that an unsuspecting new person gets our car used...maybe they'll do the right thing to replace our compromised batteries.
Here's what I started to do:
I printed out the MPG advertised stats for Honda Civic 2007 (real easy to find on Google). The HCH is listed at 42 average. I took a screen shot from Trip B, with 2000 miles on it, that shows 30.3. In between I put a sign that says Lemon, see "Honor Corporation Has No Honor" on FB. It's taped on the rear driver's window of my car.
Next, I started taping the recals and pathetic performance of the battery on my iPhone. It easily fits on the ledge to video this and I don't have to touch it at all when driving. I get recals every 10 minutes or so, whether in city driving or on the freeway.
Next plan: (I have family issues, unemployment, disabled/troubled child).. WHEN I feel I can deal with the time, annoyance (how do I transfer the video to my Mac? got to find this out, etc.) and stress it causes me to even have to be doing this, I will write a letter with DVDs to my nice, sweet service manager thanking him profusely for the info on low resistance tires but how does this affect the performance of the battery. I will also copy in the Southern California address, and Honda America.
BTW I did call Honda America maybe a year ago? They told me the battery was "working as designed". That's their motto. I will ask them to reconfirm this in light of the evidence I have now provided them.
Sorry to be so upset, while misery loves company, in this case it makes me more miserable knowing how many (as in ALL) HCH owners have this issue and Honda is just like "driving habits", "bad tires" and whatever other [non-permissible content removed] they can put out there that might stick.
Thank you I feel better.
I know we're not supposed to give each other's e-mail addresses. But if you Like Honda Corporation Has no Honor on FB (not my site - something I found googling this stuff) maybe we can exchange e-mails or privately FB each other in messages so that all this isn't there for the whole world to see.
Just a thought.
Again, thanks for letting me vent! And good luck to the above owners - for a 2009 owner to have to go thru this is terrible. Honda for SURE KNEW THE PROBLEM by the 2009 model.
Sorry if it's already posted somewhere above this huge thread)
Patric :sick: