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> potholes and I don't want to pump them to a dangerous level).
Burst rating is somewhere north of 200 psi.
44 psi (or whatever it says on the sidewall) is what the tire company says to put in to optimally inflate the tire. The car companies say to put in less to get a softer ride.
Also, to those looking to get the best mileage out of their hybrid should definitely use cruise control as much as possible. Also, the car has a "sweet spot" efficiency at around 68/69 mph on highways, but the best efficiency I get is between 38 and 50 mph.
I also bought this thing called a z5 (z55555.com) for the car. It claims to enhance the air going to the engine. All I know is that it definitely works. The cruise control used to rev the engine to around 2800-3000 rpms when going up hills on highways, and now only revs to 2300-2500 rpms up the same hills at the same speed.
I also changed the oil to mobil1 synthetic when it came time for the first oil change and inflated the tires to 44psi. I used to get 46 highway, 42/43 city. Now, I get 51-53 highway and 47 city. Most of the gains I saw were due to this z5 thing.
A word of caution, the z5 does not fit completely into the rubber air tube going to the intake, I needed to extend it with a 2" to 2" rubber coupling that I cut in half.
I called the dealer who said to just drive it a few miles and it will "reset" itself. I've been driving it a week now and nothing has changed. I don't think the electric motor is working at all. Has anyone else had this problem?
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I'm also confident that if I drive 55 or so, I can get 50mpg.
During the last service, I mentioned the IMA light incidents (I think that there were 3 or 4), they tested the battery, and then determined that the battery was "deteriorated." I tried to get info from them. Apparently the car gives them a thumbs up or thumbs down. They don't do any testing of the battery directly.
Well, in CA, ALL emissions equipment has a mandatory 150K or 10 year warranty. Since I was "only" at 120K, they said that they would change it. For free! Which they did. The service rep said that in the entire time that he's worked there, Honda has covered EVERY SINGLE IMA BATTERY REPLACEMENT whether in warranty or otherwise (that he knows of). So it's never costed their customers a nickel.
This has made me become skeptical of the many posts that I see here, particularly from dealers in CA, that they are double dipping on the repair. Or are just lazy.
They also did 4 firmware upgrades. The behavior seems to less aggressively use the battery, although I did not notice any significant performance change (other than my mileage improving a bit). You notice the electric assist most when coming form a stop, where the Atkinson engine shows it's miserable torque...At any rate, I've decided that I really like my dealer after reading all the crap from others.. (Livermore Honda).
And put the toxic metals into the ground?
At a minimum it should go to a recycling facility as the NiMH batteries are almost 100% recyclable.
Again, I buy bad batteries for parts.
I drive a 2006 IMA model which has covered about 85k miles.
When I found I had a flat battery I jumped started the car and likewise the recharge circuit wouldn't operate.
The green drive indicator light flashed like a Christmas light, the engine management light and various other lights stayed illuminated with the engine running.
I had the car towed to Honda dealer, they apparently recharged the 12volt battery and told me they had to reset the engine management system! (As per Honda procedure I was told).
For this I was charged £100 or about $150 dollars!
I asked why I had to pay this amount for what was essential a flat battery and asked for the diagnostic report which they would not provide me with.
I was told as the system voltage dropped below 10.5 volts this caused a problem, of course I asked surely like any PC manufacturer the system would hold its values just like BIOS in PC?
I persisted with my questioning and reasoned with them that then every time I was to get a flat battery of disconnect the battery I would have to have a system reset and pay £100 and this was wrong and their must be a firmware / software problem.
I was told I should write to Honda directly and my monies were refunded and I was asked to leave the premises.
I approached a junction and braked to stop and brakes failed to operate correctly, as a result I overshot the junction by about 3 feet, thankfully no vehicles were passing at that moment.
The Honda Dealer (UK) told me there was a brake error code found and this had been caused by the system voltage dropping.
They reset the faults test drove the car and told me all was fine! Since this I have had another two occasions where I have had problems again.
Anybody else experienced this type of problem?
The battery is used aggressively at low speed and from the start. Other than that, it seems as though it's trying harder to keep the battery at a higher charge level. My charge gauge has not gone to zero even once going up my long hill on my commute. I don't think this is due to increased capacity. I think that it chooses to use the engine instead, perhaps "saving" the remainder of the battery for a "start from stop" situation? Before, it'd drain it all the way which essentially maximized the advantage going up and down hills (at least by my thinking). That being said, I haven't really seen much of a change. I guess that it's worked so far because I don't recall one incident of "no starting power" since the ima battery change. Perhaps a slight increase in mileage--I used to average 41,42 and now it's 42,43 according the the average mpg gauge.
I have posted a few times about my 2006 Civic Hybrid with 37k miles and the concern with the battery, charging system, bogus software updates and terrible factory service. I pulled into the dealer on Thursday with a car in forced regen, no IMA battery, and using the standard starter to start the engine. I had the service writer and tech observe these conditions.
I had the writer and tech ride with me and had them observe the rapid charge and more importantly the rapid discharge of the IMA system and the lack of power once the battery is kaput. I had them observe how the car jumps when it is in autostop at a light and then suddenly start and go into a 1500 rpm forced regen. They agreed all was not right though there was no IMA light on.
I left the car with them and said I want my Civic back like it was for the first 2 years that I had it and not this disappointing, underpowered, used to be good car.
3 hours later I received a call from the Service Manager stating......there was no problem as the IMA light was not on. I am beyond angry at this point. It sure was nice the software patches that were installed removed the P07AF battery deterioration code and made my car even less a Hybrid...
I got right on the phone with Honda and used my contact number that I was issued last September when this process started. I left a message for the rep stating my disappointment and how I had jumped all the hoops in meeting with the factory engineer, etc.
I also mentioned the many exact same concerns with this vehicle that I and many people on this and other message boards are dealing with that I have seen on the NTSB website, yes the site that took Toyota to task. 10 minutes later I received a call from American Honda stating they had contacted the dealer and a battery had been ordered, do I need a loaner car?
The battery will go in next week and I can sell the beast with a good conscious. Not sure what to replace the car with the new Jetta diesel is looking pretty good.
Good luck to all of you and hang tough.
Jack
>For this I was charged £100 or about $150 dollars!
That reset consisted of plugging in a scan tool and clicking reset and then getting into the car and revving the engine to 3500 rpm for about 2 minutes.
They told me the problem had nothing to do with my IMA system but it was a problem with the A/C. At first I thought they had no idea what they were talking about but, I kept listening. They explained that it's a very common problem with the honda hybrids and that there's a part on the A/C system that doesn't shut quite properly over time causing the IMA system to think the A/C is still running. Consequently, even though the engine is off, the electric battery still thinks the a/c needs power and it drains both the IMA and the regular battery.
They changed the part and I left the garage a few hours later having been charged $65. Brilliant!
The problem stopped and my car now runs like new. Hasn't cause problems ever since. One sign might also be that the A/C doesn't run as cold as usual. I've had few problems with my car but the ones I've had somehow are all linked to the A/C...again, according to the dealer "that's normal on civic hybrids 04"... really? should have mentioned that on the sticker when I bought the car...
Hope this help.
This problem is very hard to diagnose because it lights the IMA light but doesn't throw a code. I'm not surprised that the dealer didn't know anything about it, because Honda hasn't published anything about it.
Carolyn at Luscious, however, knows how to use Google and was able to find the solution for a previous customer. You became the beneficiary of that information because they've seen the problem before.
I wouldn't call it a common problem. It's quite rare, and the part isn't all that uncommon or expensive, but finding out that an AC relay is causing an IMA failure is quite a bit of detective work. I've only heard of about a half dozen cases - ever.
There is one class action suit involving civic hybrids that has been filed in U.S. District Court for Central California--but that suit is badly off the mark (since it only addresses lower-than-advertised gasoline mileage), and as of this date the federal judge hasn't accepted the (unfair-to-owners) proposed settlement.
What's needed is a class action that zeroes in on this IMA/battery failure issue. I'm posting here to ask whether anyone is aware of such an action; if you do, please post the citation for the case here.
In the meantime, I'll do some basic legal research and see whether I can find a case in progress that does appropriately address this issue.
Also, I'd like to know whether anyone on this list knows of any instances in which accidents have occured that are, or are likely to be, directly related to sluggish or inadequate HCH response due to IMA/battery failure to provide adequate boost during acceleration. This would most likely be a rear-end collision (HCH struck from behind, due to loss of power and speed, or inability to accelerate, leading to a collision with a vehicle approaching from the rear).
Thanks!
WHAT DO I DO NOW? PUSH IT OFF A CLIFF? What kind of mileage will I get if I'm continually charging the IMA battery!!
I'd like to file a report with Fed. Gov't....would that be NTSB?
I'm about to call Honda. I'd like for them to buy back car at price equal to dealer retail. Fat chance...
"I told him it was my call and if I'm wrong I'll buy another car but I doubt I'm wrong. I will post when I get car back -"
==========
Any results to report yet?
"Every summer I have IMA battery problems with my '07 Civic Hybrid. (Live in Fort Worth where summer highs are typically 95-100) Symptom is sudden discharge of IMA battery as indicated by white bars on the dash. (Actually sometimes I see a sudden charging of the battery...goes from 50% to 90% in matter of seconds!) Car can then hardly accelerate w/o assist. Car seldom has more than half a charge."
=======
Exactly same problem with my 2007 HCH. I bought it used at 20,000 miles and it ran great for the next 20,000 miles. Performance has been degrading ever since. In addition to the symptoms described by earl22, I have noticed that the charging system takes some "warm-up time" before engaging. I noticed this in the cold weather (well, cold for Austin, TX) this past winter, when I would have to drive 5-10 mins. before the system would begin charging, but it's even happening in summer weather, though it only takes a minute or 2 to begin working. Of course, no IMA during this warm-up period either.
Had the dealer look at it recently and they found no problems, apart from the 4 software upgrades they applied. Those did absolutely nothing to alleviate the problem, and perhaps made it marginally worse.
The tech at the dealership who is the hybrid "specialist" said he had a few other customers reporting similar issues, but there was no solution from Honda other than the software updates.
Well, I'm going to start climbing the chain for complaints. . .
I wouldn't assume that you have the same problem this time. 150,000 miles is an average age for a Civic battery to go. Please have your codes read and post the error codes here. I'll be glad to help you diagnose it.
That is a "negative recal" where the car has suddenly determined that the battery has less charge than it thought that it had.
>Actually sometimes I see a sudden charging of the battery...goes from 50% to 90% in matter of seconds!
That is a "positive recal" (which is much rarer) where the car determined that it either had more charge than it thought, or can not store as much as it thought it could.
Occasional recals are normal and are a way to allow the car to cope with an aging battery, but frequent ones are an indication of a declining battery. Sometimes the battery levels back out and the recals stop. This is why Honda won't fix it until the car throws an error - because the battery isn't bad yet, just changing.
John,
Please try a test. The next time it isn't charging because it is hot, stop the car somewhere away from traffic (leave it running) and open the trunk and see if you can hear the fan running. It is located directly behind the right rear passenger.
Let me know what you find.
Disclaimer: I am affiliated with Hybrid-Battery-Repair.com
You're mixing the offerings of the two companies
Hybrid-Battery-Repair has those prices for repairs.
Hybrid-Battery-Repair has free loaners. Hybrid-Revolt does not.
Hybrid-Battery-Repair has a 1-2 week lead time for replacement batteries. Hybrid-Revolt has a longer lead time.
Hybrid-Revolt fixes 2003-2005 Civics, 2000-2006 Insights and Toyota Priuses
Hybrid-Battery-Repair fixes 2003-2010 Civics, 2000-2006 Insights, 2010 Insights, 2005-2007 Accords, but no Priuses
I recommend that you research both companies before settling on one. Google both of them to find out what others are saying about the companies and their experience with them, not just what the companies say about themselves.
Also, understand that ALL cells are used - there are no new ones anywhere. Replacing all the cells doesn't mean that you're getting better cells, just a balanced set. Replacing just the bad ones accomplishes the same results - often for less.
I have a call into the Service Manager right now asking for a plan to resolve this issue.
About a week after I noticed the rapid drop of the SoC (dropping not because of using the stored energy for assist) the IMA and Check engine lights came on so I made an appointment for service which resulted in 3 software upgrades. The software did get the Check Engine and IMA error lights to turn off but it did not fix the frequent falling SoC. I returned for the problem a few days later and Honda America reported “with the recent software upgrade performed, it changes the way the battery is charged and how it is then distributed out. The computer is always evaluating state of charge”. The SoC was falling prior to the new software so the new software was not causing the problem or did it correct it.
Put up with the problem for 2 months because I read the new software needs time to “ condition/ balance” the battery but it didn’t help me. The SoC would always drop when parked over night and unpredictably while driving so I returned to the dealer two more times for repair of the problem and both times Honda America reported “ The battery might be deteriorating but not sending codes or DTCs. Until stored DTC can be pulled indicating IMA battery needs replacing no replacement authorized by Honda at this time.” Honda America also reported once “The vehicle is currently operating as its designed specifications and Honda America is not authorizing the replacement of the IMA battery”. I never saw a recal during the first 2 ½ years of ownership but it must have occurred because it has to happen every now and then. I used the instrumentation while driving so my eyes were on the displays a lot. The 12 v battery was tested twice and both times found to be good. The 12v battery power reset correcting action was tried twice but the problem did not go away. My local Honda service dept did all they could to help me but could not replace the IMA battery without Honda’s authorization.
Until the error lights/codes return, Honda America claims there is no problem so when I returned home from the last attempted service I filed a complaint with the National Highway Transportation Safety Agency reporting the Civic Hybrid becomes unsafe to operate when it loses assist. I also filed a complaint with Honda America but no help there. I then filed a complaint with the Better Business Bureau Auto Line. Instructions are in your Consumers Information Manual. Call 800-955-5100 for application.
After a lengthy process I went to a BBB Hearing and the decision came back in my favor, Honda had to REPURCHASE my vehicle under Lemon Law regulations! The arbitrator made the decision that the car met the requirement that it had a defect that substantially impairs its use, safety or value and was not repaired. (Honda would always say no problems found every time I took it in for repair. Honda America, not my local dealer)
Honda had testified I did not drive the car enough, all things deteriorate, the battery was still within its operating range, there was no safety issue and hybrid technology is still evolving. Honda provided no evidence such as test results proving the car was operating without problems other than the service invoices for my attempted repairs indicating no error codes found. The Honda reps made verbal statements such as the IMA function was well within the remaining useful life of that system but did not back anything up with evidence. Honda’s attitude in my opinion was that we say there is nothing wrong with the car so there isn’t. No error codes or lights so there is no problem but remember Honda got the lights to go out with their software updates at the beginning of the problem. Who knows what the update did to the error thresholds.
A condensed version of the arbitrator’s decision was: Honda did not inform the consumer that additional driving was necessary for the car to function properly. After 27 months the IMA system began to fail. It would not remain charged as it had previously resulting in dramatic and unpredictable fluctuations in charge and inadequate power to safely operate the car in all normal and foreseeable driving conditions and the failure of the car to perform as expected and required in its ordinary usage substantially impairs its safety. Because of the expected similar use of this car, replacement of the IMA is not a viable option.
I drive 60 to 70 miles per week and the Honda’s only mention of vehicle use is in the manual under storage “ If this vehicle is unused for over one month, the service life of the 158v nickel metal hydride battery will be reduced and the battery may be permanently damaged” Also: “the car should be driven every month, if stored, for about 30 minutes. This will keep the IMA battery charged and in good condition”. My use more than met these requirements.
I live in New England so heat is not the cause of the problem or is the cold because the car is parked in a heated garage. It does not sit in a hot/cold parking lot all day. Some of us just have defective hybrids and Honda will not officially acknowledge this although they do write new software trying to correct the “No Problem” rather than with a hardware fix. Recently read that Honda has released a software update that addresses the ‘no electric assist while at low SoC levels.’ The loss of assist was always my complaint when it went in for repair but Honda America always maintained I did not have a problem but here they are writing a solution to the very same problem I was complaining about!
If you are having similar problems with your car and Honda refuses to do anything until error lights/codes appear/reappear then take action and file with the BBB or your State’s Lemon Law agency if you still have time remaining on your 3 year/36,000 mile warranty. It costs you nothing and you do not need an attorney. Just make sure you INSIST that your case goes to arbitration if Honda refuses to repair your car after your final notice to them. You may not be as fortunate as I was but I would think a replacement of the IMA is likely. Stress the safety issue of no assist and that the car’s operation has declined from the way it did when you purchased it, at time of purchase you were not informed that the system will deteriorate to a point of requiring frequent recalibrations of the SoC which causes the e
I’m not sure but I think the following documentation I had from my dealer was one of the key factors in my case. I had gone for service and on 3 separate visits, weeks apart and the technician(s) wrote something on the invoices that I have never seen mentioned on any forum. The notations regarded findings of SoC % and Useable charge %, numbers they found when putting the diagnostic test equipment on my car. Two of the tests showed SoC at 66% and one at 67% and for Useable the results were 11%, 13% and 16%. No one at the dealership could tell me what the numbers mean but I think it reveals something not so good for reasons I do not want to get into here. When you go in to have the frequent falling SoC ,resulting in NO ASSIST, problem corrected make sure the work invoice showing what was done shows the numbers I just mentioned because I really think they are important for your case if you take action. Another REALLY big help to me was a statement from the service manager stating he went for a drive with me and witnessed the SoC falling from a good charge to 1 bar, assist ceased working and auto stop stopped functioning. Getting this document may be a little difficult to obtain. (he doesn’t want to lose his job) Even though he witnessed and noted the problems he said that without Honda’s authorization he could not replace the IMA battery.
It would bother me when I read posts knocking the Civic Hybrid when I was enjoying mine so much but then all of a sudden mine was not working properly and Honda refused to do anything other than the one time when they updated the software and always saying they find no problem. My State requires Honda to warranty the hybrid battery for 10 years or 150,000 miles and other hybrid components for 15 years/ 150,000 miles but here my car was still covered by the 3 year/ 36,000 mile bumper to bumper coverage and Honda refused to take action saying there is no problem making me wonder what would ever happen in the years to come. I was a little leery of purchasing a hybrid but with the warranty required by this State I felt I had good coverage but trying to collect on any coverage I guess is a different story. I feel the technology has not been time tested so my next vehicle will be a regular vehicle.
I feel a class action suit regarding the frequent loss of assist has to be brought against Honda for all of you over the car’s initial 3 year warranty and still covered by the IMA warranty but how to go about it is beyond me. It is a serious safety issue for those of you with the problem. There was/is a class action suit against Honda because people were not getting the mpg as advertised by Honda but those numbers were EPA’s, not Honda’s and I actually sided with Honda’s on this suit. If a law firm took on a class action suit over the EPA numbers being used in Honda’s advertising then some firm should definitely take on the issue of the HCH-II safety issue regarding frequent no assist for miles and at unpredictable times. Those of you with time remaining on your 3/36,000 warranty should file with the BBB before your warranty expires.
I know many of you have had no problems with their HCH-II but I did and Honda would not help me. I am not implying that all HCH-II cars are lemons but mine was and officially declared one. When mine was running properly it was a really nice car. All I wanted was for Honda to get my car back to the condition it was when I purchased it and how it operated for the first 27 months of ownership but Honda would not or maybe could not do so.
I hope the time I have spent writing this helps someone. You should not be forced to drive a car that can and will put you in dangerous driving situations when you lose assist. Good luck.
It takes about two-three minutes to complete a recal (a little longer if you're pushing the engine). That is probably equal to your 2 to 3 miles of driving.
>Until stored DTC can be pulled indicating IMA battery needs replacing no replacement authorized by Honda at this time
Right. That's what I was saying. Often times, it does improve, so they don't take any action until it actually fails. Of course their definition of "fail" is probably different than yours. They're trying to avoid an expensive warranty repair if they can (just like any company).
>The Honda reps made verbal statements such as the IMA function was well within the remaining useful life of that system but did not back anything up with evidence.
That is based on the fact that the car will throw a P0A7F error code when it drops below 10% of original capacity and light the IMA light. Since you had no light or DTC's, it hadn't reached that point, so they consider it to be within the useful life. The problem that you are experiencing is the recals messing up your driving, not the reduced battery capacity.
As to the 3/36 warranty, I'm not sure you aren't covered by a federal 8/80 warranty for the battery. I'm really only familiar with the Insights and the 2003-2005 Civics, but if the IMA system is classified as emissions related then federal warranties kick in (like the 8/80 on the catalytic converters).
I'd like to reiterate that I do not work for Honda or represent them in any way. I'm just explaining what is going on technology-wise which is more than a dealer will tell you. Honda (and Toyota) are in a tough situation because some owners have massive problem with their cars (like you are) and others drive 150,000-200,000 miles before they have any battery problems. The problem is that they can't afford to replace all the batteries, especially when a good percentage of them will respond well to the new software (which makes the car recondition the battery).
Toyota goes as far as saying that their batteries don't die at all. This is news to my counterparts in the Prius world who have to deal with all of this AND batteries leaking acid and corroding things as well.
You aren't the first to get an IMA replacement with only recals, but it's fairly rare. Congratulations! Is the new pack behaving better?
Actually, in another case, the owner submitted video footage of the recals to prove that the car was having problems. That might be a good solution for those here having frequent recals.
Just be careful not to have an accident while you're filming.
They are going to call me when they have downloaded the software into their Honda Diagnostic System and are ready to perform the update.
Dan
Yeah, I heard the excuses from Honda and the dealer... I drove too fast, had too much stuff in the trunk, used the wrong gas... everything but admit the product is faulty.
Well, I brought them to a BBB hearing under the lemon law and they were amazing unprepared. It cost nothing to do this and you don't need an attorney. The BBB is now getting used to hearing about Honda and these problems so it is a really even playing field.
I say all you file your BBB claim now and really push Honda over the edge, or you can drive naked, with the wind at your back being towed by a semi... I think that method gets good MPGs as well.
Now I consider this a full blown defect, We need the motor to power the car, the engine is simply too small. This is not the car which I purchased and had great performance for 70K miles. This is borderline unsafe to drive.
Will be headed back to the dealer this week. I expect to hear much of the same as others. But need to start there then kick it up.
My car is black and I park my car outside. The temperature in DC area is extremely hot this summer. I wonder if the battery was damaged by the heat (The owners manual stated the IMA battery will be damaged if the temperature is above 65 Celsius Degree).