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Honda Civic Hybrid IMA Problems

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Comments

  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    Also, how did I ever survive my 1988 Chrysler lebaron which weighed 2800 lbs but only developed 110 hp when the turbo spooled up (not when turning from a stop)?

    Or my anemic 90-ish hp 1988 Jeep Wrangler that weighed 3500 lbs?

    How does a Subaru Justy owner manage to drive a 1900 lb car with 66 hp? About the same as a 68 hp Insight owner with depleted or recalling pack. The performance of the Civic when depleted is about the same. It is DESIGNED to have a safe level of power with no assist.

    Not a fun level, but a safe level.
  • sholmes717sholmes717 Member Posts: 7
    The 2010 HCH provides 110HP & 123 lb-ft Torque. The electric motor is rated at 20HP & 70 lb-ft Torque. Now, I'm not an engineer & might be completely wrong, but it would seem that a car with these specs who's elec motor doesn't function, should be considered dangerous. In the HCH setup, torque is almost more important than HP. When you punch it to avoid danger or pass a car & the elec motor/batteries engage at full power, well the car functions at an acceptable level for sure. But remove the elec motor & I'm sorry but its dangerous. And the general public would agree, it's simply unsafe. Can it get you to the side of the road, yes, Can you get to your destination, yes. But an underpowered car IS UNSAFE! It would seem you might also believe that someone driving 55-60MPH on a highway when people drive 80mph because the speed limit is 70mph, would also be safe because you can drive cautiously enough. The problem isn't you, the problem is the accident you're going to cause because everyone else is driving 80mph. Yes we can agree that if everyone on the highway slowed down enough then the HCH wouldn't be part of any problem, but since that won't happen lets just agree that it's UNSAFE to drive an underpowered car on the highway. If you still don't "get it", it seems you may live in Montana & maybe haven't driven a HCH without it's elec motor functioning, in real world driving that 99% of HCH owners encounter each day. I have and IT'S UNSAFE!!!!!! NO QUESTION ABOUT IT!!!!
  • mainiaxmainiax Member Posts: 12
    I filed a complaint with the NHTSA back during April 2010 when I was getting numerous recals a day (Honda said I had no problem) because I felt the loss of assist when in recal was dangerous and a safety issue. My recal would last about 2 to 3 miles and then all was well until it happened again after driving 5 miles or so. It seemed random but I think it happened every time I restarted the car after stopping for 10 minutes or so, about 5 miles after restarting.

    I also filed a claim with the Better Business Bureau Auto Line at the same time. I went to arbitration and the decision came back that my 07 HCH-II was a lemon (Honda had to repurchase the car) and one of the reasons was the frequent recals causing no assist and this WAS determined to be a safety issue.

    After receiving the decision I filed another complaint with the NHTSA explaining my car was officially determined to be unsafe to drive at times because of numerous recals but I was never contacted by the NHTSA for either submission other than the 2 computer generated acceptance forms.

    It doesn’t seem they think it is a safety issue but I do and so did the arbitrator.
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    > But remove the elec motor & I'm sorry but its dangerous. And the general public would agree, it's simply unsafe.

    Nope. Power to weight is measured as lbs/hp (when you compare gas to gas engines). The 2006 HCH is 93 HP and 2877 lbs. That's 31lbs/hp.

    That is wimpy, but here are some other production cars that are not considered unsafe:

    2006 Honda Civic Hybrid with depleted battery (gas only): 31 lbs/hp
    2010 Prius with a depleted battery (gas only): 31 lbs/hp
    1990 Land Rover Defender: 33 lbs/hp
    (and because someone mentioned it) Ford Model T: 60 lbs/hp

    Now try this
    2009 Ford Fiesta: 29 lbs/hp
    2010 Volvo C30: 27.5 lbs/hp
    2008 Honda FCX Clarity: 26 lbs/hp
    2006 Hummer H1: 26 lbs/hp
    2003 Audi A2: 25 lbs/hp
    2006 Honda Civic Hybrid with Assist: 25 lbs/hp
    2010 Prius with assist: 23 lbs/hp

    So you're saying that a Prius is unsafe, a land rover is unsafe, etc? The HCH has EXACTLY the same performance as a Prius when it's pack is depleted as well. I don't hear Prius owners complaining about their cars being deathtraps. In fact, the Prius has a more powerful electric motor and has a bigger performance drop when it loses battery power so it should be a bigger shock to the user.

    > And the general public would agree

    Not if they do the math.

    > It would seem you might also believe that someone driving 55-60MPH on a highway when people drive 80mph because the speed limit is 70mph, would also be safe because you can drive cautiously enough.

    First of all the speed limit around here is 50 in NYC, 55 near populated areas in the northeast and 65 everywhere else (limited access highways and rural areas). Secondly, if you drive the speed limit you will find yourself passing people in the slow lane and accompanied by many others that are going the same speed you are. I do believe that driving at the speed limit while the speeders go by in the fast lane at 10 mph faster is safe (and legal, by the way). And, on a 30 mile trip, it will only cost me (at 70mph) 3 minutes over the 80 mph drivers. At the same time it will probably save me 10% or more in fuel economy.

    What's the old addage? "Driving a car at 75 mph is like willing paying $4 a gallon for gas."

    > If you still don't "get it", it seems you may live in Montana & maybe haven't driven a HCH without it's elec motor functioning

    If you read this thread you'd know that I have experience with both Insights and 2003-2005 Civics with no assist. I have also driven a 2006 with no assist. No, it's a slug to drive, but it isn't severly underpowered. It still moves.

    If your driving style dictates that the car is unsafe, then YOU are the unsafe driver and doubly so when the car has full assist.
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    An occasional recal is normal. Numerous ones per day are not normal. There is at least one instance of someone getting a battery replacement without an IMA light by using videotape to prove the behavior.

    If the NTSA thought it was a safety issue, they would force a recall.
  • mainiaxmainiax Member Posts: 12
    > I have also driven a 2006 with no assist. No, it's a slug to drive, but it isn't severly underpowered. It still moves.

    When I paid roughly $5,000 more for a hybrid Civic than a regular Civic I do not expect to drive a "SLUG" at any time!! It wasn't a slug when I purchased it but it turned into one.
  • shonda3shonda3 Member Posts: 42
    LOL. If the NTSA is anything like MMS, they're too busy having sex on the office furniture and snorting drugs on the microwave to care much about our lousy Hondas.
  • grunn320grunn320 Member Posts: 16
    mainiax I agree with you. My 2007 HCH was what I expected when I paid an extra $5000. for elect power assist feature. Now that feature has been severely limited I am also experiencing unexpected loss of power which does place me in very vulnerable driving situations. You don't change your driving habits overnight, nor should you haft to. Bottom line is Honda has just converted our cars into under powered standard Civics without our permission. No matter how you look at it, thats just wrong.
  • pmzpmz Member Posts: 26
    Guys, trade it in! I did at the same Honda dealer where I bought my 06 HCH and got what I consider a fair price.
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    I agree with you. I just disagree with the claims that it is "unsafe".
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    I don't know what the climate is year round where you are, but hopefully the cooler fall weather will bring a little relief when the AC can be shut off. Once the car has less demands on it, the battery charge should stay higher and this behavior will go back to normal - hopefully.

    The problem is that if they release another patch to keep it more full, availability of assist will go up, but mpg will drop.

    EVIL THOUGHT: you can measure mpg, you can't measure assist availability. Therefore if the mpg goes back up, the mpg drop lawsuits go away...
  • mabecanemabecane Member Posts: 46
    edited August 2010
    I read that some of you had your IMA battery replaced or talk about replacing them with the warranty. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but it is a limited warranty. Honda prorates the battery depending how old it is. And if you owned the car 7 or 8 years deducting 10% of the cost of installing a new one is no bargain.
    I read on the Honda website that some states allow10 years for the warranty, like CA ,CT etc.
    I decided not to get the update and wait on the side line, I only have 9000 miles left on the overall warranty of the car, so I hope Honda faces the truth and fix the problem the proper way not patching it. I'm also disappointed with all this, I loved the car, I know now I won't buy another. :cry:
  • targettuningtargettuning Member Posts: 1,371
    I said I would butt out from this discussion since I don't own one of these but I find your calm reasoned rebuttals of each and every one of the points owners here bring up concerning the lack of performance to be infuriating. To stand back and quote lb./hp. (power to weight) ratios and comparing them to a slew of other vehicles does not tell the whole story. This is NOT the "end all" of vehicle dynamics where performance is concerned. It seems your goal while driving would be maximum fuel economy and while achieving that (due to your adherence to all traffic laws, especially speed limits), you have the time to thoughtfully plan all of your moves a half mile ahead. Most of the driving world doesn't plan anything they just do it if they feel they have a 10% chance of getting away with it. So, your answer to all the owners here, and there are many, is "well, since you bought the car for economy you might as well Sl.....oooow down and thou shall have no safety issues because according to the power to weight chart your car is "in theory" faster that many"??? Oh brother!!!. Now, I'll try to go back to lurking. I just know you will have one of your calm point-by-point dissection sessions of my rather emotional reply.
  • grunn320grunn320 Member Posts: 16
    If I trade my HCH in because I can no longer stand to drive it, it sure as hell won't be at a Honda dealer or for another Honda. Reward them for screwing up your car??? I don't think so!!
  • action21action21 Member Posts: 6
    edited August 2010
    2004 Civic Hybrid: It's been about a month since both my IMA light and check engine light went on and the dealer quoted me $2700 for a rebuilt battery. Temps have remained in the upper 90s during the day (Kentucky). Battery still charging and uncharging as normal - no problems. Car is running strong as normal and has 155K miles on it. Battery Warranty was gone a long time ago. Anyway I believe in the Civics as a good solid car and have bought 3 of my sons Civics - just not hybrids. My fiance has owned 3 Honda Insights including a 2010. I believe I will probably not be buying another hybrid any time in the future but I have not ruled out a Honda. Although the VW Jetta TDI was a nice test ride. I have noticed over the years that many regular civics and corollas are getting about same mileage as my hybrid so not seeing any big difference on gas saving. YES I do have a lead foot and I'm not about to change that anytime soon. I guess I will wait till she dies and then use one of the 2 online places I found to send the hybrid battery into for repair and let you all know how that goes.
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    Honda's warranty is 8 years/80,000 miles outside of CA. I'm uncertain about the warranty in NY and all the other CARB states, but in CA it is 10 years/150,000 miles. This is the warranty on the battery. If they replace the battery, the original warranty is still in effect. This means that if you bought the car in 2006, the warranty would run out in 2014 no matter if the battery had been replaced in 2008 or 2012 - or both.

    When I said "patch", it was a computer term for releasing a slightly changed version of a program that completely replaces the original one. It was not meant to mean that it was a patch-job or in any way shoddy. It is probably a small change or tweak to the thresholds in the code.

    As far as I know, future software updates will be free to you even out of warranty.
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    > To stand back and quote lb./hp. (power to weight) ratios and comparing them to a slew of other vehicles does not tell the whole story. This is NOT the "end all" of vehicle dynamics where performance is concerned.

    It is when you are talking about acceleration. All we were talking about was the safety of the car when the driver was suddenly presented with a no-assist condition. Underway, you won't even realize you didn't have assist. It is only when you are trying to accelerate (such as in the left turn we discussed). In that case power to weight is the only factor because gear ratios and tire diameters are approximately equal. The car with the best power-weight ratio will make the turn fastest.

    I'm only talking about the safety aspect. Not the enjoyment aspect.

    > It seems your goal while driving would be maximum fuel economy

    That is the reason that I bought and drive the car that I do. Maximum fuel economy without inconvenience. Wayne Gerdes personally taught me how to hypermile. I won't drive like that even though I can get 120 mpg. Why would you buy a Hybrid if maximum fuel economy isn't your goal?

    > and while achieving that (due to your adherence to all traffic laws, especially speed limits),

    Are you chiding me or making fun of me because I choose not to break the law? Carried to the extreme, that attitude implies "Go ahead son, the shopkeeper isn't looking, just take one piece of candy. He won't miss it."

    > you have the time to thoughtfully plan all of your moves a half mile ahead.

    Not meant as a criticism, but on the highway, you are supposed to be looking 20-30 seconds ahead, so yes, at highway speeds you should be observing what is going on half a mile ahead. You should not be tailgating and staring at the bumper of the person in front of you. You should maintain a proper following distance and watch what is going on up ahead because you'll be in it shortly.

    Whether you choose to do so or not is up to you. I'm less worried about someone rear-ending me on the highway because they were tailgating me (smaller closing speed-smaller impact) than some idiot cutting me off by turning left as I'm bearing down on him.

    >"well, since you bought the car for economy you might as well Sl.....oooow down and thou shall have no safety issues because according to the power to weight chart your car is "in theory" faster that many"???

    If you Sl....oooow down, your battery won't be empty and you won't have a no-assist condition. You'll also get great gas mileage, polute less, and it will only cost you a few minutes out of your day. And with a full battery, the car will be "in fact" MUCH faster than many.

    > I just know you will have one of your calm point-by-point dissection sessions of my rather emotional reply.

    Yes, why don't you try a less emotional reply next time and discuss things rationally.
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    >2004 Civic Hybrid: It's been about a month since both my IMA light and check engine light went on and the dealer quoted me $2700 for a rebuilt battery.

    That's a pretty good price. Usually it's about $3000. Most likely, you have a P1449 error, as a P1433 or P1447 don't usually light the CEL. You are probably losing about 5mpg due to the battery's inability to accept a charge (or at least all the charge that is fed to it). Keep an eye on the battery light/alternator light. As long as it stays off, it is safe to drive the car. If it lights up, you must fix the battery. If it lights up while you are away from home, do this: disconnect your 12V battery for 20 seconds and then reconnect it and drive straight home. The light will be back on soon, and when it is on, the 12V battery does not get charged.

    Your maximum range is about 20 miles with the light on.

    The 2003-2005 cars are not as affected by heat as the 2006-2010 are because the AC compressor is belt driven and does not present a drain on the battery.

    The software updates mentioned at length here do not apply to your car.
  • shonda3shonda3 Member Posts: 42
    Well said, sir.
  • rhonaldsrhonalds Member Posts: 4
    Well, I didn't have a choice about the software update. My IMA light came on. I took to the dealer to investigate. They had it for six hours. Then I found out about the software change. My 2006 hybrid with 107k miles has been under performing every since. Auto-stop doesn't engage at a stop with full charge. No power assist trying to merge onto the freeway or to accelerate out of the carpool lane. The software is masking the battery failure to hold charges. Definetly unsafe. Also, do not believe your mpg reading. I went 10 miles at 70-75 mph with the ac on and it said I as averaging 45.7 mpg!!! Honda is trying to avoid replacing defective batteries under warranty by masking the problem wig a software change that seems to be recalibrating itself based on how much charge load the battery has at any given time. There no way the battery holds the same charge as before the software change!! We'regoing to be left with defective batteries that we have to replace on our dime. That's not fair business practice.
  • rhonaldsrhonalds Member Posts: 4
    Well, I didn't have a choice about the software update. My IMA light came on. I took to the dealer to investigate. They had it for six hours. Then I found out about the software change. My 2006 hybrid with 107k miles has been under performing every since. Auto-stop doesn't engage at a stop with full charge. No power assist trying to merge onto the freeway or to accelerate out of the car pool lane. The software is masking the battery failure to hold charges. Definitely unsafe. Also, do not believe your mpg reading. I went 10 miles at 70-75 mph with the ac on and it said I as averaging 45.7 mpg!!! Honda is trying to avoid replacing defective batteries under warranty by masking the problem wig a software change that seems to be re calibrating itself based on how much charge load the battery has at any given time. There no way the battery holds the same charge as before the software change!! We're going to be left with defective batteries that we have to replace on our dime. That's not fair business practice.
  • pmzpmz Member Posts: 26
    Whether you ever buy another Honda is up to you. I shopped the HCH around to various dealers. The best price by far came from Honda - and they are well aware of this issue. I had no interest nor time to fight Honda for a new battery, class action suit, IHSTA complaints, etc. Everyone's situation is different.

    Good luck in your fight. I am enjoying my CR-V in this 95 degree CO weather!
  • pamslavepamslave Member Posts: 2
    I have had a few times this year with mt 2007 HCH2 with 45000 miles on it that the heat seemed to push down the battery power during hot stop and go driving. I am not ready for an update. I also am not yet a Honda hater. So for I have only found this forum with a hundred or so people mad, bad cars and ready for a lawsuit. That is out of the hundred of thousands of these cars sold. My thought is maybe this is not as wide spread as some think it is. I feel any car that is messed should be taken care of by Honda but does it need a class action for an answer. I done see any ambulance chasing lawyers contacting anyone. This car is the most trouble free car I have ever had. I see people praising VWs. Had a couple. Lots of repair bills Honda was just rated in the top five makes people planned on buying. not VW. If you are having problems maybe one should look past the TDI you might end up with another headache.
  • las2002las2002 Member Posts: 8
    Environment: Las Vegas Summer - every day well over 100 Deg F. with stop and go driving

    Since the recent software upgrade, mileage and performance continue to significantly improve. Mileage up from 38.0 pre-update to today over 43.0. Driving is 90% Las Vegas city with a lot of stop and go. I occasionally run-out of assist in heavy stop and go and usually in temperatures over 105 F. However, I have found that some assist is usually available even with 2 bars but you have to really push on the gas to get it.

    It seems that under really adverse conditions - very hot over 100-105 degrees F with stop and go driving - that any assist is non-linear relative to gas pedal movement. In other words, you really have to push on the pedal to see the assist (whereas, with more bars, assist is available with small pedal movements).

    If my 2008 Civic Hybrid with 23000 miles continues to get over 40 MPH in the Las Vegas summer, I find that very acceptable. The upgrade DEFINITELY SIGNIFICANTLY improved my fuel economy and overall performance,

    In the cooler weather coming in September, it can only get better. I too was VW'd and it was the worst nightmare I ever had with any car. Electrical, A/C, valve stem seals/high oil consumption, et al. You had to know where the electric fuel pump relay was under the dash - so when it didn't start - you could pull out the relay and tap it on the ground. This was on a NEW VW sold to me as a premium vehicle.

    I too find the CONCEPT of the TDI attractive - BUT after my VW nightmare and current assessments of reliability still very low by Consumers and almost all others - and still showing electrical problems, I'd be VERY cautious about VW's. Also, call VW and ask them if they machine brake rotors - they will tell you like BMW - NO they replace them. Makes for big bills for brake jobs - after the 3 year free maintenance (and during that period) very little maintenance is needed beyond oil changes.
  • shonda3shonda3 Member Posts: 42
    It' is not so much being burnt by Honda's bad engineering. It is the fact that Honda is cheating those who bought this product a second time by lying about the patches, telling the public that they drive with a heavy foot, etc. People who have spent $5,000.00 don't want to end up with a gimmicky car that doesn't do what it promised, and then, on top of that, be told that there is nothing wrong with their car, that it is normal to see a 30% drop in mileage, and poor performance. It is far more widespread than this post lets on. ALL the batteries are disintegrating.
  • grunn320grunn320 Member Posts: 16
    I agree with you 100%
  • heather_07hchheather_07hch Member Posts: 28
    I have been reviewing this thread, (and many others), for the past month since I began having trouble with my car. I have owned this car for three years, and I have 84,000 miles. For the first 2 yrs, I consistently got 40-45 mpg. About one month ago, I started seeing the mpg drop. I am now down to 27-30 mpg. There is little to no assist in the afternoons. The IMA battery has very little charge. I could go on and on, but it has been covered so many times here. I got it appraised at one dealership, and received a really low offer. I don't really want to go to Honda to try to get rid of the car, but I don't want to take too big of a loss. I want out of the car, but the whole thing has left a bad taste in my mouth, and I don't want to continue to pay for this car in a new loan. I purchased this vehicle with faith in Honda and with the fuzzy feeling that I was doing something great for the environment, and great for my wallet. Now, I have a car that is unsafe, not what I paid an extra $5,000 for, and a manufacturer that doesn't want to own up to its mistakes. Just wanted to see if anyone has gotten a decent trade in offer.
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    Regarding the mpg changing: AFAIK, the update only affects the MDM (aka MCM) which is the IMA computer. The mpg display is controlled by the ECM (body computer) which is where the fuel flow and speed measurement data comes into. This means that the MDM does not tell the ECM what the mpg is, and therefore the battery update can't fake out the mpg display.

    Therefore something else must be affecting it. Here are some possibilities:
    1. They applied an ECM update as well that changed the mpg display
    2. They added air to your tires
    3. By resetting your IMA system, the car is not spending a huge amount of fuel vainly trying to charge the battery and therefore you are getting better mileage
    4. The new programming is causing you to drive more economically and you don't realize it.
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    > It is far more widespread than this post lets on. ALL the batteries are disintegrating.

    I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. In the past six months, I've seen 2 2006, 8 2005, 25 or so 2004 and about 75 2003 Civics. The distribution on the 2003-2005 civics is base on them exceeding 84,000 miles and obviously older cars have more miles, but most of the cars are at 120,000 -160,000 miles (including the 2006 cars). If the problems were extremely widespread, then there would be more 2006 cars than the earlier model (2003-2005) and if the earlier model were having widespread problems, then they would be coming in with 90,000 or 100,000 miles. I really feel that the battery failure rate is about the same across the years. In addition, most of the cars were on their original batteries.

    This has nothing to do with customer dissatisfaction with the software updates, just the longevity of the batteries.

    Now yes, they are all deteriorating, but MOST are taking more than 120,000 miles to do so.

    Most of the people who are here on this forum are here because they are having a problem. It isn't a representative sample.
  • dgiff52dgiff52 Member Posts: 1
    I have been lurking on this board for several weeks now, reading each and every person's unique experiences with the IMA situation. I thought I'd throw in what I'm seeing as well.

    I bought a 2007 Civic Hybrid new just about three years and one month ago. I have run the puppy in the Phoenix heat ever since, putting 39,000 miles onto it so far. The car got about 42 MPG in the winter and about 40 MPG in the summer. I usually attempted to keep the the gas mileage up in the summer by limiting my A/C demand, with occasional body sweat consequences, but nothing too uncomfortable.

    However, it wasn't until about three months ago that I really noticed a problem. At first it was just that the MPG for entire tanks had dropped to about 37. The reason for this became more and more apparent every day. Each morning I would start my car after it had been unused for between eight and fourteen hours. The battery indicator would imply decent strength, about five or six bars. But after about twenty seconds, it would drop to one or two. The car would then barely assist me in getting onto a 65 MPH freeway that is right next to my house, an issue that has become more severe each day, as I get NO assist by the time I'm on the on-ramp. From research online, apparently this is known as a recalibration, and I began seeing it every time my car was off for more than about five hours.

    I took the car in once the recall letter arrived. I let the tech know that I was seeing a major MPG drop, and that I was having issues with the IMA battery recalibrating to effectively no bars every morning. They repeated the party line - "The software update should fix everything." Also, they had me pay to purchase a new 12V battery, as they said it was very weak and could be a contributing factor to the issues.

    I'm about 450 miles past the software update. My MPG is now at a measly 32 MPG, and this as I am literally driving it like a grandma now, something I never had to do to achieve 40-42 MPG just six months ago. From my observation of the battery gauge and how it affects the assist and the auto-stop, I have my own theory on why this so-called software fix could actually be helping some people and plain killing the rest of us. I'm sure others have considered the same thing. This software fix does NOT do anything to repair depleted batteries. It just finds clever ways to use the battery less, especially when the charge is low. Well, what about those of us whose batteries are probably over 50% "damaged", "unchargeable", whatever the term?

    What I'm seeing on my battery gauge is as follows: it rarely goes above four bars. When it does, it usually jumps from five bars to a full bar reading in a ten second period. The full bars dive back to five bars in the same period of time when assist is required. I don't have any inside info on this, but I'm just thinking this could be related to some of my cells being damaged, unable to truly be charged, etc. So what I'm left with is a car that is usually around three to four bars. The new software update effectively prevents my car, in it's most common charge state, from providing much IMA assist. Auto-stops are at this point a non-occurrence. My IMA assist onto the freeway is even worse now, as I am usually less than four bars when I enter the on-ramp.

    I can imagine that the software update could provide people with decent batteries an improvement, because their batteries could possibly hold legitimate charges above a few bars. But what about the batteries that are MOSTLY damaged? Honda refuses to replace these batteries unless they are basically fully dead? What if they only have 20% capacity? The new software update renders them useless at that point. The MPG is now atrocious relative to the advertised fuel economy, and the pick-up power is that of a bicycle. It almost makes a person want to figure out how to just kill the rest of the cells so the damned battery finally reports itself DOA. Honda doesn't want to take responsibility for their warranty, so they are keeping the batteries from completely dying. Great. Easy to do. Stop allowing it's use past a certain capacity threshold.

    Battery technology has always been the worst moving technologies in the electronic era. Laptop batteries have only improved to keep up with a 3-5 hour charge for most portable computers over the last 20 years. I guess I was stupid to think that these hybrid batteries would be much better. However, I'm trying to find out if there is a significant problem on the other hybrid cars, such as the Prius. I can't find as much chatter online about Toyota's hybrids. So why is Honda having a more common problem?

    Finally, how the hell are we all going to figure out how to make Honda live up to their warranty? Do we have a chance, or do we have to just cope with driving a transitional technology that will be [hopefully] forgotten in ten year's time?
  • shonda3shonda3 Member Posts: 42
    Those were YOUR words. Look up the thread a piece and read 'em.
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    > Doesn't the computer takes over and override the procedure.

    No the reason for the 3500 rpm is that above 3000 rpm, the dc-dc converter (the "alternator") is shut down. While the dc-dc converter is running, there is a parasitic power draw that makes it hard for the car to accurately test the capacity of the battery. By raising the rpm, you remove that draw temporarily.

    > I'm wondering if I should hold on the update and see what happens. My wife did mentioned that the bars dropped down to one once at the traffic stop.

    I think you should hold off. The updates will change how the car acts and until you have a better feel for how full your battery normally is, you won't know if the changes will negatively affect you. Mostly highway drivers like yourself often come to see me with 160,000+ miles before a problem. Some come in with 250,000 or even 300,000 miles.

    The recal that your wife saw is not a problem. It is normal to recal once or twice a year.
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    edited August 2010
    I said that all the batteries were degrading. I also said that on average across all the Honda hybrids they are lasting an average of 7 years for those cars that are driven daily. I did not imply that they are all failing, but rather that they all eventually will fail (ie they will wear out).

    I don't see the 2006 batteries as having any more or less problems than the earlier years. Your post implied that the 2006 batteries were all failing at an alarming rate. I was just answering that I don't think it's that high a rate. Parts on cars break. That's normal. Having them break while within their warranty period (aka their minimum acceptable lifespan) also happens. That's why there are warranties. When it happens a lot, it is a problem that shows that something is wrong. With an average life of 7 years, there is obviously something wrong, but we don't know what the life will be with these software changes. Honda is stating that the updates are designed to improve the lifespan of the batteries. The reason that your statement is a problem is that none of the gen2 cars is more than 4 years old.

    I don't know for certain why the mostly-highway car's batteries seem to last longer than the city-only cars. Because I see mostly cars that have more than 12,000 miles per year (I don't see the ones with less because they are still under warranty), I can't draw any firm conclusions, but I'm starting to see 2000 Insights that are beyond their 10 years.

    I THINK it's because the batteries are more full. Why this matters isn't clear yet. Maybe the batteries are getting less use (although I've seen 180K packs that get lots of use) or maybe it's just them being parked full (so that they don't unbalance as much before they're driven again).

    The average (and i strictly mean some more, some less) driver is not seeing problems until the car is 7 years old. Possibly these updates will change that number for the 2006+ cars.

    I do NOT have a vested interest in this. I'd rather the batteries lasted longer and people were happier with their cars. They will eventually need service and I'll see them then. I turn away a couple people per week because they didn't realize they were under warranty or because I give them tips on how to get another year or so out of their batteries. Why? Because I don't cheat people and they will turn to me for help later instead of a competitor, and they'll also recommend me to friends.
  • grunn320grunn320 Member Posts: 16
    I admire your business approach. Customer service is not what it used to be. I live in a small town (9000 pop) where you would think repeat business is a must to survive. My experience here is that service business owners think they're doing you a favor and some are even arrogant and argumentative. I guess it's because the closest competition, a bigger city, is 25 miles away. People with your philosophy will retain loyal repeat customers.
  • grunn320grunn320 Member Posts: 16
    Your IMA battery problem is almost exactly like mine. My batteries may not have deteriorated to the level of yours yet, but are getting worse. I also have a 2007 HCH with 39000 miles.
  • mabecanemabecane Member Posts: 46
    Thanks for the info.Ogre
    Now after reading the messages these last few days and paying more attention to the car battery performance, I have come to the conclusion that my 06 71000 miles HCH IMA works the way it should. Close to full battery bars when parked all night, 6 or 7 assist bars when passing on highways or whenever climbing inclines.. Never drops below 5 or 6 bars battery bars. It's working perfect.
    Like I mentioned earlier the battery charge bars only dropped to one once at a light. We do mostly highway driving , parked in garage every night, /north East weather conditions.My wife babies the battery, she will turn the ignition off when parking if the idle mode is on , so not the restart the engine before shifting into park. In a way it's a crazy thing Honda designed, you come to a stop to park, the engine stops in idle mode then as soon as you put the shifter in park it restart then you have to turn the ignition key off to stop the engine again. Kind of crazy and wasteful.
    9000 miles to go before the end of my bumper to bumper warranty expires, i will keep a close eye on the car and this forum. i think most HCH owners do not know if the car has a problem and most don't come to this forum, so I would think the people on this forum have a legitimate concern and complaint, if nobody complains no one listen.
    Thanks everyone.
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    Same here. Not quite as bad, but getting there. I have a 2006 with 92K miles, which means I have no warranty left. Not sure what to do.
  • gregr2gregr2 Member Posts: 14
    as I have stated previously, my problem has been very similar except mine started a lot sooner. Bought a brand-new 2009 hybrid and after 2000 miles my battery light came on. Into the dealer, software upgrades, drove another 2000 miles and light came on again. I was told the battery was "no good". Battery replaced. When I first bought the car, before the first problem I was getting 44-46 mpg. Now I'm getting 36-37 mpg. Not driving any different. My battery is never fully charged according to the indicator. Don't get the assist that I used to. I am selling this car before it gets worse. as I have seen by multiple posts, this has been a problem with these batteries for years and Honda has not come up with a solution yet.
  • mabecanemabecane Member Posts: 46
    edited August 2010
    I hope it will get somewhere
    LA Times article

    Officials of the powerful California Air Resources Board are concerned that a battery management system software fix Honda has engineered to increase battery life also reduces fuel economy and might increase the cars' tailpipe emissions, potentially violating state clean air standards.
  • shonda3shonda3 Member Posts: 42
    Great post. Thanks for the link. You can p*ss off the customer, but don't scr*w with CARR.
  • shonda3shonda3 Member Posts: 42
    For the $5,000.00 extra paid for this vehicle, I did not expect to get the fast shuffle. I did not expect my mileage to decrease by over 12 miles per gallon. I did not expect the performance of the vehicle to deteriorate to an unacceptable level. I did not expect Honda to protect their own arses over customer satisfaction. But Honda did expect to do just these things. They knew these batteries were bad almost from the get go. And they certainly know about the problems now. Let's hope the California Attorney General is not on the Honda payroll and will start a recall of these timebombs.
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    edited August 2010
    > For the $5,000.00 extra paid for this vehicle, I did not expect to get the fast shuffle. I did not expect my mileage to decrease by over 12 miles per gallon. I did not expect the performance of the vehicle to deteriorate to an unacceptable level.

    I agree with you 100%.

    > They knew these batteries were bad almost from the get go.

    I think the problems started to become evident around 2005 and they've been trying to find a solution for them ever since. Remember that any car manufacturer has a few years lead time. It took them two years (2000-2001) to determine that the Insight actually worked and what to change about it for the Civic. Simple things like: redesign the battery module to change the 3 hour Insight battery removal to the 30 minute Civic removal, redesign things to take less space and less fans (saves money), making the IMA computers reprogrammable, etc. By the 2006 model year they had determined that MT drivers were a lot harder on the batteries, so they eliminated all manual transmissons (which also eliminated the "lean-burn" models).

    They made major revisions in the battery module itself for 2006. They made it more powerful by adding 10% more cells, they made it smaller by inteleaving the sticks, lighter by trimming the housing and cheaper by eliminating unnecessary sensors.

    They changed the car by adding electric to the AC compressor so that you'd be more likely to leave it in ECON mode. The Gen-I cars get hot quickly when stopped at a light, so many people leave the AC on AUTO and the car never auto-stops. They added a PTZEV mode which (in addition to helping their CAFE) gives better performance and qualifies the car for rebates, special programs, etc.

    They started issuing updates to the Insight software in 2006 to address battery longevity and extended the warranties in all 2000-2004 Insights (SB 06-026, 06-027, 06-057) to 10 years/150,000 miles nationwide. Prior to that time, all the language of the bulletins treats battery failures as a normal "sometimes parts break" event.

    I don't think they had time to switch gears. For the new 2010 Insight they moved to a battery with far fewer cells (84 cells vs 120 in the Gen-I and 132 in the Gen-II). The reduced number of cells will DEFINITELY eliminate a large percentage of the imbalance problems. It isn't a solution for every car because it also reduces the capacity of the battery pack. The Insight is much lighter, so they were able to get away with it, but it would never work in the Civic. The Prius has a pack twice the size of the Civic, but it sections the battery into four pieces, so each 1/4 is similar in size to the Gen-II Insight.

    > And they certainly know about the problems now.

    Oh yeah.

    You have a Gen-II that started performing poorly after updates, right? And you haven't applied the latest updates because you're afraid they'll make the car worse, right?

    I'll make you a deal (assuming you're in the US). Get the latest update. Evaluate it for a week and give it an honest chance (while paying attention to the SOC gauge, etc.)

    If there is no change - fine you've lost nothing.

    If your battery improves or performance improves or both, tell us here.

    If either your battery gets worse (give it at least 2 weeks to settle down) or your performance gets worse (give us an honest accounting of SOC vs performance, etc), tell us and I'll give you a replacement IMA computer (MDM) that has never been updated (I think). It hasn't been in a car since before 2008, so it shouldn't have any of the nasty updates. I'll also give you instructions on how to install it. You just pay the UPS shipping ($10-$15). Save the old computer in case you ever have to take the car back in. You can reinstall it.

    Deal?
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    edited August 2010
    > I admire your business approach.

    Thank you. I believe in "what goes around, comes around".

    > People with your philosophy will retain loyal repeat customers.

    That's the goal - sort of. I don't want them to have to repeat a battery repair - at least not on the same car. ;) I just want them to refer friends to me.
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    > I have come to the conclusion that my 06 71000 miles HCH IMA works the way it should.

    I think that your driving habits (commute, etc) do not put your battery at risk and therefore you will not gain much from the updates and might actually lose quite a bit. I expect that you will get 120,000-160,000 miles or more without any trouble.

    I recommend that you do NOT get the updates. In 9,000 miles, wave goodbye to the dealership.
  • mabecanemabecane Member Posts: 46
    edited August 2010
    Thanks
    If my wife gets 120k to 160k on the IMA I should consider myself satisfied.
    The dealer ship has only seen me once since I bought the car new, I do all my oil changes including the tranny myself. Back in 07 my oxygen sensor died and it was the first and last time I brought the car to them.
    I feel bad for the other owners, HCH owners are dedicated to their cars.
    I think Honda has our full attention at this moment. They will fix the problem, they have too.
    My 13 year old full size Chevy Express van has given me 90k of trouble free miles all across the USA, only the driver side window electric crank motor had to be replaced, nothing else not even a bulb or fuse replacement. I hope to get the same with my wife's Honda
  • mainiaxmainiax Member Posts: 12
    ogre gev

    >Now yes, they are all deteriorating, but MOST are taking more than 120,000 miles to do so.

    Have you read post #502 with the link to the LA Times regarding the Honda Civic battery issues and software update?

    According to the article, Honda has swapped out more than 4% of the batteries in the 2006-08 Civic Hybrids in Calif, exceeding the California Air Resources Board's threshold for acceptable failure. Nationwide replacements is proprietary info.

    A deteriorated or deteriorating IMA battery is bad news for the HCH-II owner and Honda only replaces "dead" batteries so maybe many owners are getting 120,000 miles on their original battery but the car's performance is far from what it was when new.
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    > Have you read post #502 with the link to the LA Times regarding the Honda Civic battery issues and software update?

    Yes. I was interviewed for it. Much of it is based on this thread.

    > According to the article, Honda has swapped out more than 4% of the batteries in the 2006-08 Civic Hybrids in Calif, exceeding the California Air Resources Board's threshold for acceptable failure. Nationwide replacements is proprietary info.

    It would be a safe assumption that the number would be about the same even though the rest of the country has less of a warranty. California's climate mimics most of the entire rest of the country so the distribution should be about the same.

    If there are 300,000 per year, then that is 36,000 batteries. 4% is high. It isn't ALL of them, but it is high.

    > A deteriorated or deteriorating IMA battery is bad news for the HCH-II owner and Honda only replaces "dead" batteries so maybe many owners are getting 120,000 miles on their original battery but the car's performance is far from what it was when new.

    Maybe, maybe not. Typically, batteries only show deterioration just prior to failure. The performance of a car with 20% capacity is identical to one with 100% - just for a shorter period of time. A 100% battery should provide 6 minutes of 20 bar assist and a 20% battery should give about a minute. If you are consuming power in 10 second increments, you won't see the difference. Assuming it is just weak, you won't even see an mpg drop because charging up x amount of power takes the same gas no matter how much the battery holds.

    The performance issues here are strictly caused by changes to the software. The performance of the cars that are experiencing recals (sudden drops in the battery charge) is a pre-failure condition. The heartening thing is that at least one person here had the recals go away (the battery got better) with the latest update.
  • chicarockachicarocka Member Posts: 1
    edited August 2010
    Hello all...
    I have a 2005 Honda Civic Hybrid with a manual transmissionthat has been a fine vehicle with 130,000 miles on it. I been everywhere man..so probably around the 120K mile mark I noticed the check engine light came on and stayed on. Now the check engine light had come on before but that was only because the gas cap needed to be screwed on tighter. This time the check engine light came on and the IMA light came on with it. I took the car in at 125K miles for an oil change and got the check engine light checked out.

    The dealer told me my IMA battery was deteriorating but that is all they could say. They couldn't tell me how much it had deteriorated or how much life the IMA had left in it. They could tell me that the repair costs $3000 and they had not seen alot of civic hybrids with this issue. That raised concerns immediately and I figured they didn't know what they are talking about.

    Now at 130K I have noticed I can't really run my AC while driving because the IMA battery power is zapped. The battery runs out of power quickly. But it still charges up to full accept if the AC is running then the car is very slow and does not have much pickup. I just finished paying the car off and really don't want to spend $3000 to have this repaired by the dealer. Is there a way to find out what percentage of the battery is deteriorated, or if particular battery sticks are worn out and only need replacing, a place online that I can order an IMA battery and have it installed by someone. Also is there a way to install a new IMA battery yourself. My fuel economy is around the same about 42 mpg.

    Now this car is 5 years old and it is disappointing that I have to go through this. A hybrid isn't very much a hybrid without the battery now is it. Any help or explanation you all can provide will be greatly appreciated. Thanks. :sick:
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    The dealer should have told you your error codes. You can find them out for free at your local Autozone.

    > Is there a way to find out what percentage of the battery is deteriorated,
    Not without knowing what code you are getting, but it is likely to be below 10% of it's original capacity based on your description.

    > or if particular battery sticks are worn out and only need replacing,
    They aren't exactly user serviceable and determining which ones are bad is a major undertaking.

    > a place online that I can order an IMA battery and have it installed by someone.

    Please contact me privately by email.

    > Also is there a way to install a new IMA battery yourself.

    Yes, it's easy. Please contact me privately for instructions.
  • abg_hybridabg_hybrid Member Posts: 5
    After a month of problems, with no IMA light, Honda IS replacing my battery. I have 58,000 miles on my car, and I experience re-cals on my morning & evening commute. My gas milage has gone from the 42-45 range to the 35-38 range.

    I hope the new battery fixes my problems. Tips to get Honda to honor their warrenty:
    1) if you have been in an unsafe situation due to sudden lose of acceleration, file a complaint with the NHSTA. When you bring your car in to the service center, bring in a copy of your complaint.
    2) Keep a journal of everytime you have an issue with the IMA. Mine was about 2 weeks long with daily or twice daily entries.
    3) Try their software updates. I don't think they would have gone for the battery replacement had I not done this.
    4) Keep up with journal entries after software updates
    5) Request that they test the car to tell you the actual capacity of your battery. Tell them thumbs up / thumbs down is not enough when you have all this other evidence. You need a number. THEY CAN DO THIS TEST. It took me leaving my car for 3 days as they tested it at various conditions, like cold start.

    After this, I got a new battery, even though they said my battery was still at 30% of original capacity. My theory is that between 30% and my journal entries, they new an arbitrator would not side with them. They may have also realized that my battery was not going to make it 22,000 more miles until the warrent ran out, so why fight it.

    I will re-post in a few weeks if the new battery has or has not resolved my issues.
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