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Honda Civic Hybrid IMA Problems

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Comments

  • heather_07hchheather_07hch Member Posts: 28
    I agree. I would hope that the ONLY reason anyone has gotten the update is out of fear of losing warranty coverage. I am afraid as well, but I already had my mpg drop as low as 27, and have had many instances where no assist was available, so I am absolutely NOT interested in any further power or fuel economy losses. This morning, I encountered a new problem. I pulled out of a parking lot, never got over 15 mph before coming to a 4-way stop. I didn't come to a complete stop as I was the only car there, no auto-stop occurred, even though the IMA gauge had 8 bars. When I pressed the gas to pull away from the stop sign, the car did not move, the engine revved up, the RPMs red-lined, and as I looked down to see if I had somehow unknowingly shifted the car into neutral, (although I knew I hadn't), the car slammed into gear and lurched forward. So add that to the list of things wrong with my car...grrrrr
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    If your battery is failing, Honda insists that you get the update before they will replace the battery. I think there has been a few reported cases on this forum of a positive effect from the update. In my case there was some improvement but not a reconditioning of the battery, so the battery will be replaced. The theory from Honda is that if you get the update soon enough, it will preserve your battery. It is my understanding that all the new Civic hybrids start out with this update.
  • heather_07hchheather_07hch Member Posts: 28
    Of course they insist on the update. If you can lessen the battery's usage, it will take longer for it to die. Then, most people would be out of warranty by that time, and Honda wouldn't have to take the hit. If I have to end up getting the update to have my battery replaced, then I will just park the car for 30 days to ensure that the battery will die. I refuse to pay another 3 years for a car that is not what I purchased and that I don't consider safe.
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    edited September 2010
    If you are having battery problems already, the key is to get the IMA light to come on before you get the update. Then you have a failed event locked into time and mileage. So, if you continue to have problems then you have a recorded event before the warranty expired.

    If you are not having problems, the theory is that the update will postpone ever having a battery problem. If you are leery about getting the update at all, don't get it until you are having problems, or at some time before the warranty expires, whichever comes first.
  • bam_2006_hchbam_2006_hch Member Posts: 1
    Got the update about 4 weeks ago. 2006 HCH with 66,000 miles, in Houston, Texas. 60/40 city/highway driving, or thereabouts.

    I see the recal events every morning, and sometimes during mid-day driving. Hottest August on record here, by the way.

    Average mileage has increased from ~38.5 mpg (consistent for the last 3 summers) to ~41.5 mpg now, though. The recals look more like a forced charge event to me; the IMA boost is available within a few minutes and the SOC goes back to full bars after about 7 or 8 miles of driving.

    I can't complain at this point. A 3 mpg improvement in a terribly hot month is pretty impressive. Sorry everyone else is not seeing the same results.
  • selinzselinz Member Posts: 11
    edited September 2010
    I agree. I think that the update is far better. I never find myself stranded with no battery left for taking off from a stop sign or getting up a hill. It definitely saves the charge for higher acceleration situations.
    By the way, I always get better mileage by NOT using cruise control. However, I often use it anyway for convenience.
    Mileage: driving 75-80 around 40mpg, or less if I drive like an idiot (eg. trying to go faster up hills than down hills. Funny how so many people on the road do that)
    driving 65-70 around 42
    driving 55-65 around 45.
    subtract 2 mpg or so if AC is on.
    subtract another 1mpg if temp is over 95.
  • heather_07hchheather_07hch Member Posts: 28
    That's the problem, my IMA light has never come on, but the problems are obvious. If I go get the update, it will probably never come on, since the update will keep the battery from being used enough to drain it the rest of the way. I don't think anything is going to take away my disappointment.
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    Eventually, your IMA light will come on. You can help it by not deliberately driving to preserve the battery charge. Want to hear something ironic? I was on my way to get the upgrade and the IMA light came on for the first time ever. Just lucky, I guess, because I then had a record of failure. The upgrade helped some, but my battery was too far gone for a complete fix and after driving it for a month I asked for a new battery. Unfortunately, when my light went on I was already about 6K miles over warranty. Honda would only pay 50% of the cost for the new battery.
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    I agree about cruise control. It ruins my mileage because it operates contrary to good mileage--more throttle up-hill, less throttle down-hill. I wish there was a constant throttle device that I could override just a little in case the car got too slow up hills. That would be a good feature for driving in flat or slightly hilly terrain. I usually can improve my mileage by 3-4 mpg by not using cruise control. This is not as big a factor on non-hybrid cars just as air conditioning isn't either.
  • 030394030394 Member Posts: 4
    I, like everyone else, was extremely disappointed after my software update for my 2008 Civic Hybrid. The car drove very sluggish, and I had a very difficult time climbing up hills. Even with the battery indicator showing half full, the electric engine refused to kick in, so I was left with the gas engine only to climb the hill. It had become a safety issue for me, so 1 week after the update, I took my car back to the dealer. They spent a day on it and calling back & forth with Honda Corp., but in the end they said that that this is the way it is and that they can't do anything about it. They suggested me to drive the car for a while for the computer to relearn itself.

    Being desperate, I decided to top my next tank of gas with Premium Unleaded. Wow! What a big difference it made. The car took off with much more pep, but at a cost of more $$. The next tank of gas, I switched to the midgrade Unleaded (89 octane) which costs less, and I found that the car still drives with the same pep as using the Premium grade gas. Now after 30 days, I am really loving this car. With the midgrade gas and the computer having time to adjust, the car just drives great. Gas milage has not changed much, and my last tank averaged 41 mpg. This is great considering I live in a hilly area in Southern CA, and it's also summer weather. The extra 2 octanes gain from regular to midgrade really made a big difference on this small gas engine. An extra 10 cents per gallon more is a small price to pay. The car drives much better than before the software upgrade, and the hybrid engine seems to blend in much better than before the upgrade. Just give it some time for the computer to adjust, and try using a higher grade gas.
  • jcihakjcihak Member Posts: 60
    I have driven my '09 Civic 400 miles since the secret firmware update (they did not tell me at the time). My mileage has dropped from a 47 to 41 MPG and performance is very sluggish - almost unsafe. Now I wish I had never bought this car.
  • motorcarshybrdmotorcarshybrd Member Posts: 7
    Trade it....trust me. I did am=nd am driving a wonderful Ford again!

    The performance will not improve and Honda will not do anything to fix it. I spent months trying to resolve it, with numerous trips to the dealer and lines of bull.

    You are correct. Acceleration is dangerously inadequate. Trade it and never buy Honda again!
  • mrlarmrlar Member Posts: 14
    edited September 2010
    Sorry if this has been posted (I've been out of town for a few weeks including when it came out) but in case it hasn't been posted, the LA Times did a big article (right on the front page of the Sunday paper) back on Aug 15th about the Honda "update" and battery problem. Even though it's listed in the business section online, in the print edition, it was Page One of the Sunday paper (main section), above the fold, where everyone could see it.
    http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-honda-20100815,0,4626507,full.story
  • shonda3shonda3 Member Posts: 42
    Nice dream. Octane does not affect performance in the way you describe.
  • mabecanemabecane Member Posts: 46
    I agree, the only way higher octane would show improvement, would be if the engine was the high compression type which it is not.
  • 030394030394 Member Posts: 4
    Maybe you can just try it on your next refill. It won't hurt to spend an extra $1 on a tank full just to try it for yourself. It seems to work great for me in conjunction with the new software update. I had the same gripes as everyone else, and was on the verge of getting rid of my car when I switched gas. I think it's both the gas and the the time it took for the software to adjust. Drove about 700 miles since update. I just thought I share.
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    To verify what happened why don't you go back to regular for a tank to see what happens?
  • selinzselinz Member Posts: 11
    With modern engines that use variable timing and integrated knock sensors, it is possible that a higher octane gas would require less retardation in the timing, which generally can result in better horsepower.
  • dhilldinerdhilldiner Member Posts: 48
    I got the software update a few weeks ago. I started having at least daily discharges of the IMA battery in early June even in cooler temperatures and without AC. I hoped that the software update will solve the IMA problems but the 1-3x discharges have continued. If anything, the software update has made it worse because the engine recharge kicks in when it reaches 2 or 3 bars which means longer periods of sluggish acceleration.

    I took it to my Honda dealer and they said that the IMA system checked out fine and they couldn't do anything. I repeatedly said that there is a problem despite their equipment saying it was fine, and that they needed to drive my car for a few days. I filed a complaint with Honda and their response was that I had to go back to the dealer and have them test drive it as I requested. I feel like I'm getting the run around. I'm going to see if the dealer will test drive my Honda and then consider the next step.
  • steve329steve329 Member Posts: 3
    I thought I was special with my 07 hybrid IMA issues. Evidently not. It has been in Honda repair several times and seems to only get worse, certainly not better. The scary part was this past Friday when waiting to make a left turn in a very busy intersection in downtown Sacramento (yes, over 100 that day) and the car completely died in the middle of the intersection when I stepped on the gas to move forward. Dead as a doornail. I could have easily been killed if the F250 behind me hadn't braked and stopped in time as he would have shoved me in front of the on-coming traffic. Honda says they are puzzled by my issues - obviously I am being lied to as this seems to be very common. What recourse do we have?
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    If your battery is not right, only a new one will solve your problem.
  • shonda3shonda3 Member Posts: 42
    I have discovered that if you place the car in neutral while driving, it will not go into its recharge phase, and the battery will always register at two or three bars. Does anyone know if this will lead to early battery failure? Just wondering.
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    Are you talking about with the car rolling or stopped? Mine still charges in neutral when stopped. If you put it in neutral when braking, you defeat the regenerative charging. You don't want to do this. It is a waste of energy. It is probably better for longevity if the battery stays at four bars or better, even though dipping below occasionly should not be significant.
  • grandtotalgrandtotal Member Posts: 1,207
    It is probably better for longevity if the battery stays at four bars or better...

    That may not be what certain posters are trying to achieve.
  • rosie2006rosie2006 Member Posts: 22
    Hi Steve, I am at the point of wait and see with my 06 civic, have been watching posts to see what is going on with the latest software update, so far, not impressed. Went many round with Honda Elk Grove, had 2 or 3 test drives with the HONDA REP (you can request it), the mechanic said yup does has issues, Rep final remarks were "operating as designed". BBB and consumer affairs, nothing worth mentioning. I think my IMA battery was damaged or faulty prior to the original 3 (all with the same bulletin numbers) was done. Sent comments from Edmunds to Call 3, got a response but nothing further. So, now the charge indicator does whatever it wants to do, fully charged to nothing, to 1-4 bars to fully to nothing. Rep said I could put the pedal to the floor, it wouldn't hurt it to resolve the no power when trying to get across an intersection, get on the freeway, etc. I agree that it is a safety issue, but until someone dies due to IMA failure, seems like no one cares.
  • steve329steve329 Member Posts: 3
    I have the same issues with the bars - none to fully charged in 30 seconds. I did get the sw update as the car was at the dealer and they called Honda and Honda said to install the update. It actually helped for a few days but then back to sub-par performance. Some days the car won't start especially after sitting for 24 or more hours - it takes it a few tries to turn over. The intersection experience was the first time it ever quit running completely while in the on position. All the lights came on the dash including the battery and IMA lights. Normal, I think not.
  • jcihakjcihak Member Posts: 60
    My Civic hybrid lost mpg and power after the last tuneup. The change was obvious, but the dealership would not admit to any fault. The car was so slow, irritating to drive, and just plain unsafe for my family. I traded it in this weekend. No wonder none of the Honda hybrids are selling. Even the new CR-Z's are sitting on the lot. The dealers were pushing them big time this weekend but no-one was buying
  • rosie2006rosie2006 Member Posts: 22
    Yup, know how frustrating it has been for me, loved the car for 2 years, then the issues, another big issue was no "codes" were coming up for the techs. Again, not our fault, but faulty workmanship on the computer for these things. They also could not reverse the software update to it's previous version, now that really annoyed me as it was not displaying issues other than a quick discharge every once in a while prior to the update. It actually got worse as the E.G. dealership only put 2 of the 3 updates (same bulletin) on it originally, so called around to nearly all the dealerships in the area and am now taking it to Honda in Lodi, they discovered it was lacking the 3 part of the update. OMG, they think that we want to be a nuisance???
  • heather_07hchheather_07hch Member Posts: 28
    Did you trade for another Honda, or go to another brand? I am so ready to trade, but the trade-in value is awful. I am afraid I will have to go to Honda to get a decent offer. I don't want to continue to pay for Honda's mistake with negative equity.
  • heather_07hchheather_07hch Member Posts: 28
    I have been having symptoms of IMA failure for over 2 months, and the IMA light JUST came on for the first time yesterday. At the same time as the IMA light, the Malfunction Indicator also came on. After driving for one hour, then parking the car for 5 hrs, upon restart, the IMA is now off, but the Malfunction Indicator is still on. According to the Owners' Manual, this indicates that there is a problem with the "engine's emissions control systems." I looked on the Maintenance Minder, and it shows a "3" which the manual states is an indication the transmission fluid needs to be replaced. So, exactly how many more things can go wrong with this car?! And why did the IMA light come on and then go off? It didn't magically cure itself. The IMA gauges are all over the place; fully charged, completely dead, and no matter what the charge, sometimes there is assist, but mostly not. I am so frustrated. On the interstate this morning, the car lurched and jerked in bumper-to-bumper traffic like I was driving a manual transmission, only like a person who doesn't actually know how to drive a stick. It was hopping in traffic. There was no assist, despite 5 IMA bars, but every time I stopped, the auto-stop engaged. It just makes no sense. With everything I have been through over the last 2 months, I am just fed up.
  • christine99christine99 Member Posts: 1
    I am a medical student and HCH owner now stuck with a LEMON HCH because I can't afford to fix the battery or trade the car.

    If you GOOGLE Civic Hybrid Class Action you will find links to several cases - one was just expanded to include owners with defective IMA batteries at Chimicles firm.

    I have even gone directly to Honda America to ask for a cut-rate on fixing my IMA battery that died JUST outside the warranty window. They are not budging, just holding out as long as they can because they know litigation is inevitable with this many consumers. They'll bide their time, eventually settle and give consumers as little as the have to.

    I will NEVER purchase another Honda again after this indefensible, unethical treatment as a long time customer.
  • las2002las2002 Member Posts: 8
    2008 Civic Hybrid with 24,000 miles since new now has 1000 miles since update.

    Mileage has increased from 38.0 to at least 42; hand calculation on last tank of mostly city driving in hot weather was 42.6. I do have lack of assist at times especially when Temps are over 100. I get occasional drops in bars from 4 or 5 to 2 in hot stop and go driving. Usually charges back-up fairly fast once out of stop and go traffic.

    Conclusion - assist can be very marginal in stop and go driving and with temps of 100 deg and over. Fuel mileage is improved to a level I didn't expect in the hot weather out here. I don't like the performance degradation in hot weather and sometimes rapid discharge to 2 bars in hot weather and stop and go conditions.
  • cmholmcmholm Member Posts: 2
    Our '06 HCH initially averaged 42.5 mpg (per the gauges). We're in HI on a neighbor island, so it's rare to get up to 60mph, and winter isn't an issue. After a year of consistent driving, consumption went up to 35.5 mpg. We noted that the battery was frequently down to two bars, and no recharging noted when braking. The local dealer has reset and/or patched the s/w a number of times since. In these cases, the average mpg would go up to 42.x mpg for a day or two, before dropping back to the 30s.

    I've gotten the same speeches regarding temperature, driving style, etc, that others have reported here. It gets below 60 deg F at night for maybe a week, my wife's commute hasn't changed, but whatever, I'm a slow learner.

    Finally, over the last week I've watched the indicated charge swing wildly from 1 to full and back, while the charge/assist gauge sat silent. The car reverted to cranking from the forward battery a couple days ago, and the engine light came on. Since then, the IMA light has come up a couple of times before staying on steady.

    I plugged in my code reader and got back a P0A7F. Based on previous comments on this thread, I'm anticipating that the dealer will perform the s/w fix first, after which I'll PRAY that the system will croak again.

    Re: the safety issue, it's absolutely true that when you get used to merging into traffic with a functional IMA, it gets real sporty when you step on it, and it ain't there.
  • antithesisantithesis Member Posts: 9
    I did the google search for class action chimicles. I sent them my information about my battery or IMA problems and lack of interest from Honda. I am not going to get rid of my civic hybrid and pass the problem to someone else and let Honda get away with this poor treatment of me and others. I want Honda to fix my problem or buy my car back.
  • jcihakjcihak Member Posts: 60
    I've owned 4 civics, 2 Accords, and Pilot and have been very happy with all except the HCH. In my opinion, the IMA technology is very flawed, so I stayed away from that and traded in for a Honda CR-V. The trade-in at Honda was actually at the upper end of KBB with a good price on the CR-V as well.

    So far I love the CR-V and am getting 26-27 mpg with no worries.
  • jcihakjcihak Member Posts: 60
    I've owned 4 civics, 2 Accords, and Pilot and have been very happy with all except the HCH. In my opinion, the IMA technology is very flawed, so I stayed away from that and traded in for a Honda CR-V. The trade-in at Honda was actually at the upper end of KBB with a good price on the CR-V as well.

    So far I love the CR-V and am getting 26-27 mpg with no worries.

    BTW, I picked the CR-V because I could really use the space - another problem with the HCH.
  • targettuningtargettuning Member Posts: 1,371
    I see you have not been too active lately pushing how the car is still perfectly safe to drive (if you absolutely, positively drive like the original "granny") without the extra omph provided by the electric motor assist.....however, the complaints are still coming in fast and furious from those who feel otherwise. Once again, I do not own one of these 'less than perfectly engineered Honda marvels" but only lurk around to read of the misfortunes of those that do all the while patting myself on the back for resisting buying one in 2006 when I bought our regular gas Civic (not without its own potential serious problems e.g. cracked engine blocks). I agree with some here who have said that Honda will do little or nothing to remedy this on an individual customer basis, if indeed anything CAN be done other than software patches to make the car limp along as long as possible preferably until out of warranty. It will take a class action suit or official government intervention or both to make Honda take some sort of action. Good luck!!!
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    Because I was a few thousand miles over warranty and do not live in one of the extended warranty states, Honda would only cover 50% of the cost to replace the IMA battery. It cost me $2000. That really put a dent in my past gas savings, but I felt it was better than letting the car go for an unreasonably low price or take a chance driving it like it is. So, I now have the option, I hope, of either selling it at a decent price, or driving it again in a like new condition. If there is ever a government intervention and settlement, I wonder if I would be able to be reimbursed. Does anyone know of anyway to track what might be happening on this front and if there is anyway to contribute to the outcome?
  • heather_07hchheather_07hch Member Posts: 28
    edited September 2010
    My 2007 HCH has been at the dealership for 48 hrs, and they just called to say a new IMA battery is on order and will be here Tuesday. After it had been there for 24 hrs with no call, I called. They said they had done the update, (against my wishes), and that the car appeared to be operating normally. I explained once again, as I had when I dropped it off, that it had been operating fairly well the last 2 weeks compared to last month's 27 mpg and 30 mph merges into interstate traffic. They refused to even look at the photos I had taken of my gauges over the last 6 weeks. I asked if they had even tested the battery to see how much damage had been done. He told me they don't have a way to test it. Angry, I went to the dealership, and when I arrived, he said they were on the phone with Honda Engineering right that very minute, (sure they were). After a 20 minute wait, he came back in and said that there was one more test they needed to do, and that they would need the car longer, and offered me a rental at no cost. Suddenly, everything had changed. I finally got the call 20 minutes ago stating that they were replacing the battery under my 100,000 mile extended warranty, (I am currently just over 85,000). I am going to get a copy of every test, record, etc done so far, and the rest of which will be completed next week when the battery arrives from CA, (I am in GA). I am so relieved, but still a little skeptical. Why the sudden change of heart?
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    I live in Florida and my battery came from GA. Don't know why yours didn't.
  • heather_07hchheather_07hch Member Posts: 28
    That is strange indeed. Of course, I don't care if they have to ship it from Japan, I'm just glad they're doing it.
  • cmholmcmholm Member Posts: 2
    Took my '06 HCH (53kmi) in to the local dealer, who validated the P0A7F and told us they'd order a replacement IMA battery. It's supposed to take a week or two to make it out to the islands.
  • heather_07hchheather_07hch Member Posts: 28
    I had to go back and get my car while they wait for the battery to arrive. I asked for some copies of the service records, and that is the code my car got as well.
  • mabecanemabecane Member Posts: 46
    I read that the Insight IMA battery is even smaller and lighter than the HCH. Wasn't this the problem with the HCH IMA battery, it's too small for the job.. Is the Insight IMA battery a new redesigned one or just the same type as the HCH.
    The IMA battery in my wife 's 06 so far works as it should be, she does not get the 46 to 47 MPG she used to get the first four years since she got the car, she now gets 42 MPG, so the mileage has dropped a bit. she could sometime get 51MPG on highway stretches with the cruise control on over a 500 mile trip. That's also gone now. We are are just wondering when the Battery will start conking out. We have an other 9k before the extended warranty expires, but it seems in Connecticut the IMA battery is warranted 10 years. I have not had the update installed. To me getting a new battery with the update is not a fix, if the mileage drops like all the other owners claim. So it's a bit of a catch 22, hopefully the battery last the way it is now or Honda comes up with a solution.
    Not software solution since hardware is the problem, I don't see them giving out 90 000 new redesigned Batteries. So getting rid of the car may be the solution, have Honda buy it back. I'd get a new Insight if the battery was a better design. I don't want to trade one problem for an other. This really sucks.
  • heather_07hchheather_07hch Member Posts: 28
    I agree. I am glad they replacing my battery, and I am assuming with the update, the new battery will not wear out as fast. However, will I ever have back the car I bought? I think not. The whole design is clearly flawed, so I am still unsure. The dealership will not specifically say the words, "the battery has failed," they just keep saying it needs to be replaced. They are just acting funny. The update is now done, and the new battery goes in on Monday, so we'll see how it goes after that. What I'd like to know is why, after the update, my gauges show an almost constant 50 percent or better state of charge, and the assist and auto-stop are working correctly, if my battery is dead? Doesn't make sense. If the software is now "updated," why don't the gauges reflect a low state of charge. Of course I am getting 35 mpg, which is not as bad as the 26-27 I was getting a month ago, but still not the 42-45 I used to get. I will continue to post and give updates of performance, mpg, etc after the battery replacement.
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    I got the update first and then the battery. On my first trip back home from the dealer, about 25 miles, I got 60 mpg. Since then, my average has remained above 50 mpg in another 35 miles driving on short trips.
  • heather_07hchheather_07hch Member Posts: 28
    I have now driven 75 miles since the battery was replaced, and they had to do the update again. I am still getting 35 mpg, inadequate assist, and no auto-stop unless there are at minimum 5 bars, but most often 6. I am not happy.
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    You have a right to be unhappy. I have driven about the same miles as you since my battery replacement and I am averaging 50.5 mpg. Something is not right and they need to get to the bottom of it.
  • wavespongewavesponge Member Posts: 2
    This was posted on Greenhybrid.com. Don't know if this was mentioned before in this thread.

    Honda Service Bulletin 09-025

    My '06 has exhibited the same recal problems this summer. Frequent recals, loss of assist, but no IMA light yet. I'm due for service, but don't know what to do about the update.
    It appears from the bulletin that two symtoms will trigger a battery replacement. The IMA light must remain lit, AND the recorded freeze data of the IMA temperature sensors 1,2, or 3 must be above 68 degrees F.

    If those two conditions aren't met, they are directed to clear the error codes and do the software update.
  • dhilldinerdhilldiner Member Posts: 48
    Thanks for the information on what triggers battery replacement. I have a 06 with frequent recals and have taken it to the dealer twice. The dealer said it tested fine and I filed a formal complain with Honda. Honda corporate said I needed to take it back to the dealer and have them test drive it to verify what I was reporting. I took it back and the dealer was sympathetic but he said he didn't get frequent recals when he test drove it. Very frustrating. He did say that high temperatures trigger frequent recals and it might go down during the fall.

    The recals seem less frequent with cooler weather but the big picture is Honda seems to be saying that it is ok for the performance to vary widely and to be unsafe due to weather conditions and software upgrades as long as the IMA light is not on. This is unacceptable.
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