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Honda Civic Hybrid IMA Problems

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Comments

  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    I appreciate the first-hand comparison!
  • mabecanemabecane Member Posts: 46
    I would think they would not honor a claim for a dead IMA battery unless you had done the software upgrade.

    The letter Honda sent for the upgrade did mentioned that the warranty of the IMA battery would prevail regarding you got the update or not.
  • ill2006ill2006 Member Posts: 8
    Heather, don't give up! Be persistent and firm with the dealer and Honda. File a complaint with NHTSA, the federal agency with jurisdiction over automobile safety issues. Make no mistake this is more of safety issue then a performance issue. Sooner or later, once they get enough of these complaints, the Feds will force them to make a blanket recall to replace all the batteries and reinstall the original software. Check out what agency in your state handles consumer complaints and file a complaint. It is common for state Attorney Generals' offices to band together to force action. It will only be a matter of time before Honda feels enough heat for them to act.
    It has now been two weeks since my new pro bono battery and original software has been installed. I am pleased to report the car is actually running like new. If I were in your shoes I would replace the battery provided the original software is installed along with it. When it comes time to sign off on the payment receipt write on there something to the effect you are paying for the battery under protest and why. I know it is easy for me to say since Honda replaced mine but you need to think about your well being.
    If anyone is interested the Chicago Tribune printed an article on this problem, "Civic Hybrid drivers fuming over patch." It is on the front page of there August 18, 2010 Business section. Don't you just love the internet!! Happy hunting.
  • heather_07hchheather_07hch Member Posts: 28
    I have already filed a complaint with both the NHTSA and Honda America, and neither have even bothered to respond. I am going to put in a call to Honda again tomorrow. I am not happy with the new battery. There is no difference in the old battery and the new one. I am going to try to push to get the old software back. I haven't been able to get any info on help from the state of GA, as the lemon law covers such problems for only the first 12,000 miles. If I can get the car back to the way it drove the first 2 yrs, I will keep it. Otherwise, I am not okay with driving my family around in an unsafe car. The sluggish performance and 35 mpg is not going to cut it.
  • krazykowskrazykows Member Posts: 2
    I have the same car as you, a 2006 Civic Hybrid. I'm a heavy driver and have 117,000 miles on it. I bought the car in Sept. 2006, so it's now 4 years old. I keep track of my mpg based on every 500 miles of use. I've never had an average below 47mpg and had it as high as 56 mpg. I received the recall notice and waited until I had to have an oil change to have the battery upgrade done. I expected my mpg would go down if the battery life was going to be "extended" by the upgaqde. I was willing to make the sacrifice as I'm expecting to get another four years out of my car. I also expected that I wouldn't probably notice the change that was taking place until I had a good 500 or more miles as the battery has to "learn" what the upgrade implmeneted. Since the upgrade, I've put on over 1,000 miles. I have noticed that my car is a little more sluggish on acceleration these days and just today was stopped on a steep hill waiting for a light to change. When the light changed, I noticed a sluggish response when I pressed down on the accelerator. So yes, I've noticed that the upgrade has deteriorated the IMA's performance. I also noticed my IMA power bars going up and down more erratically. When I used my cruise control on a local street with a 25mph limit, my IMA bars went down to two. That didn't happen before the upgrade recall. I travel each week from Philly to Washington DC (and back) and my mpg reading is 48. I have noticed that tire inflation has a big impact on mpg, so cooler weather means lower mpg. I have pumped a little more air in my tires and in fact, that helps with the mpg (but I'm not a nut about it, so I tolerate a lower mpg in the cooler months). Bottom line is that the upgrade has apparently deteriorated my IMA when it tries to assist the gas engine but not to the degree that I would report it as a serious problem. I'm a very careful driver, always withint the speed limit and avoid any situations that require sudden acceleration, so I cannot say whether or not the degree of accleration is really a safety problem for me. I learned a lot from reading all these posts, however, and will be watching my car's performance more closely.
  • ill2006ill2006 Member Posts: 8
    See my 9/23 posting. Sounds like you now have the same problem as I had after the software update. If your battery is original, the wide swings in charge could be indicative of a failing battery. My contention with Honda stressed that before the upgrade the car ran great... no battery or performance problems at all. After the upgrade, wide rapid swings in battery charge and unpredictable loss of performance. I don't believe any one of us bought our HCH for a sports car but there are there are those times when a burst of speed is a must and therefore is as important as braking or steering to avoid a collision. I actually found myself watching the battery charge indicator before I would make a left turn.
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    Your problem sounds like a bad battery. However, you have a new battery. Could the new battery be a bad one? Or, could there be a problem with how the upgrade was done? Honda needs to get to the bottom of this. Maybe there is some other part of the IMA that has a problem (inverter, motor, etc.). Certainly your performance does not match my experience with the upgrade and new battery. I suppose you could be a "hell on wheels" driver and get that kind of performance with everything working fine, but I wouldn't think you would just start driving that way in the last few months.
  • ill2006ill2006 Member Posts: 8
    American Honda took three days to respond to my complaint with a boiler plate answer, "The car is operating as designed," BS. But after about two weeks, they finally came to their senses. I believe, but I don't know for certain, the dealer contacted Honda and would not take "No" for an answer from Honda. It took them five days to figure out the battery needed to be replaced and the old software reinstalled. The dealer did tell me during that time that there was a problem but Honda's engineers in California, probably the same guys that came up with the new software, contended it was operating just fine. To this date I have not heard anything from the NTHSA, I suppose they are still gathering data.
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    So, where do you stand now? Are you waiting for another new battery and the old software reinstalled?
  • ill2006ill2006 Member Posts: 8
    I never purchased a new battery, Honda covered the cost even though the car has 110k miles on it in a state where the battery had a 8yr./80k warranty. The service invoice called it a goodwill warranty replacement. As important to me as the new battery is the old IMA software was reinstalled and walla...it drives like a new one.
  • spoograbspoograb Member Posts: 6
    I have a 2009 HCH purchased in March of 2009. Everytime the weather becomes cool and rainy and/or cool/cold and dry, my battery charge suddenly falls from almost full to almost empty, especially if i am using electric assist continuously for a few moments. However, when the weather is hot out (like 60+ all the way to 101 like it was this past summer), i could use the electric assist for miles and the battery indicator bars will slowly one by one disappear as i use more juice up. The weather here in CT is just beginning to get cooler and yet again here I am with the same issue of the battery suddenly having no juice. Then, a few minutes later after using forced charge, my battery bars jump to full in a matter of seconds. Does this happen to anyone else? Right now it will happen once in a while but by Thanksgiving when there is snow and the weather is much colder, this will be a daily occurance until late February or early March, really right before I purchased the car. Last winter, I brought it to one Honda dealership and they told me they couldn't look at it since I didn't purchase it from them, even though I get all of my oil changes done by them ...... anyhow, so I took it way back to the dealership I actually purchased it from 3 times. Each time they kept it for about a week and the general manager had NO CLUE about the hybrid system. So, he had to contact corporate several times and they eventually said this was absolutely normal. Well, I would not complain if this did not happen everday and if the gas engine could carry the weight of the car fine, but it cannot and merging on the highway is scary especially where I live in CT where my on ramp is very steep; my civic with no battery is honestly no match for the rest of the vehicles. Does anyone else have this weird "recalibration" issue.

    PS, the dealership told me this was normal for the battery to "recalibrate" which is true but sometimes the bars drop from all 8 full to only 1 full and up to all 8 full again in a matter of a minute or 2. Other times, it takes up to 10 to 15 minutes to fully recharge, so I think there really is a sensor failure here rather than an issue with the battery. Might I add, I just reached the 10,500 mark on the vehicle.
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    It is the symptom of a bad battery. However, I assume sensors could cause it also.
  • ill2006ill2006 Member Posts: 8
    I agree with Bossless. Begin to keep a log of the problem. Record Date, mileage, outside temperature as seen on the dash, other weather conditions if you think that may have something to do with the problem and what happened, i.e., battery charge went from two bars to full charge in seconds. The more thorough the better, it will come in handy if you need to get more forceful with Honda. Report that dealer to Honda that did not want to work on your car under warranty, those service guys surely know what is happenening with the HCH and won't touch it if it is not their baby. My dealer told me of "isolated reports" of problems after the software on older model HCH were updated. Since this issue is more then a performance problem, file a complaint with the NHTSA and any one else that will listen, your state consumer advocate, or your Congressman. Sooner or later they will force Honda to act, this problem is not going away, Hopefully no one gets killed waiting for them. Does any one know what model year HCH started using the newer IMA software in the factory?
  • heather_07hchheather_07hch Member Posts: 28
    Picked my car up this evening after leaving it for 24 hrs. Something has been ratting behind the rear seat since the battery replacement a couple of weeks ago (or about 1000 miles). I called American Honda as soon as I dropped it off and the ended up having a case manager call me. She said she had read the letter I sent. (That was on August 67th, they just never responded to it). I told her that my car has not improved since the replacement and that I want the original software reinstalled. She continuously said they will not do it, and I continuously said that is all that will satisfy me. She then said something about the "recall" changing the way the car drives. I stopped her to ask why she said "recall" when Honda has been so persistent that it's not a recall, but an "update." I made her repeat it, and then she tried to backtrack. I told them how unfair it is to sell us a prodcut and makes claims as to its operation and reliability, only to come back later and complete change the way our product operates and expect us to be okay with that? I wouldn't go buy a fridge, then take it back to the store later to have it reprogrammed to not get cold anymore and then be happy with that. It is just not the right way to treat your customers. So, I also spoke with the service manager @ the dealership, as the service writer told me I would have to pay $110 for them to run diagnostics on it. And then possibly to fill up the gas tank to do a fuel economy test. Uh...no. I ended up getting so frustrated, that I told the service manager that I understand that Honda is making him tell me that nothing is wrong with my car. And he couldn't in good faith tell me that I am being irrational, there is just nothing that Honda can let him do. I got the car back, it's "operating as designed," and they somehow couldn't hear the loud rattle of not having put the car back together completely after IMA replacement. The only good thing about the experience, was that I got them to change the oil while it was there. I guess maybe I should just look for the rattle myself. I am going to cal NHTSA again, they never responded to my letter, either. I am going to try to snap some more photos and videos of my gauges at various temps, times of day, and in different driving scenarios, like I did before the replacement. I sent all of those to both Honda and the NHTSA. All they have to do is install the old software.
  • lectricman52lectricman52 Member Posts: 10
    Well, I've not participated in this discussion for about a year and a half. I no longer have the lemon that was the source of my frustration. After battling with American Honda for over a year, the dealership made me a pretty good deal on a new Accord (April 2009). My dealer was sympathetic but seemed to be helpless due to American Honda's attitude of not admitting their failures. If you look back on my story, my complaints led to a new experimental battery being tested in my car and other trials. None of the things that were tried were successful in fixing the issues. I had filed complaints with the BBB (on the dealer and on Am Honda) and with the NHTSA citing safety issues when the IMA failed to assist an the car was running on the underpowered 4 cylinder engine. Finally, when the dealer wanted to get me off his back, he made me a good offer. I'm sorry that so many people are so dissatisfied and frustrated with their vehicle. I feel your pain. I don't get 40 MPG now, but there is less stress in my life.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    Interesting. Honda used you as a sort of beta tester? Any more details on that?
  • dhilldinerdhilldiner Member Posts: 48
    How much back and forth did you have with the dealer over the 12 months + period? What do you think was most effective tactic in forcing the dealer (and I'm assuming Honda corporate) to give you the Accord? Were your complaints with the BBB and NHTSA effective?

    I'm in the same situation of going back and forth with the dealer. (I have an IMA battery discharging at least once a day and the software update has done nothing positive) My plan is to take the dealer to small claims court to force Honda to give me a new IMA battery if nothing happens, but I would prefer to get a non hybrid Civic instead. My view is the Civic hybrid is flawed and I don't really want to deal with it even if I get new IMA batteries. The engine is underpowered, the IMA batteries are prone to fail early, and we are at the mercy of Honda's software updates.
  • heather_07hchheather_07hch Member Posts: 28
    Read my posts, even a new battery won't solve ALL of your problems. Bossless seems to have had great luck with it. However, at this point, I just want out of the car.
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    I don't think I am the only one that it worked well for. Seems like others have said they had success too. There's something not right about your situation and they should be able to figure it out. I would be inclined to sue them through small claims court.
  • heather_07hchheather_07hch Member Posts: 28
    I agree with you, but I am just exasperated. I don't have the time to keep fighting them. If someone will just make me a decent trade in offer, I would jump on it.
  • twlaketwlake Member Posts: 2
    We had our 2008 software upgrade and Immediately had problems. Went to dealer and gave this list.

    September 29, 2010

    Honda Tech:
    These are the problems that are occurring with our 08.
    1. 2008 HCH batteries charging and discharging erratically
    2. Acceleration response is erratic, I either get the assist or I don't regardless of the level of charge on the battery. In a couple cases it seemed as if the car did not want to accelerate from a stopped position. This has put me in a dangerous situation more than once when trying to cross an intersection.
    3. How is it that the IMA batteries (@ 40-50 % charge) are assisting with engine acceleration if Assist indicator has no bars? This is telling me either the software patch isn't working or the batteries are failing or both.
    4. My fuel efficiency has not improved and instead I am seeing less MPG from 48 mpg to 32 mpg, same as a non-hybrid.
    5. Basically, the update has placed more burdens on the very small gas engine to power the vehicle with much less assist from the electric motor than before the update. Battery does not charge as high a level as before and rarely drops the batter below 4 bars. At 4 bars the electric assist is unpredictable, sometime working and sometimes stopping the assist at the worst times, like in the middle of passing or on a highway on ramp. Try getting up to speed on a highway on ramp with the small gas motor. Won't happen without the assist, to me, a safety hazard.
    6. My wife is now afraid to drive it, thanks to Hondas battery saving update. Honda has turned my HCH into a standard underpowered Civic. I paid an extra $5000 for the hybrid feature.
    Just because a voltage level looks ok does not mean the current output will be Ok.
    All we want is the car to drive the same as when we bought it. There are many examples of these problems if you go to the Internet and check (http://www.hybridcars.com/forums/civic-hybrid-battery-ima-problems)
    Thanks,
    Tim Lake

    Ps: please attach this to your work sheet so we will both have same records.
    Result No Problem Found from Honda Corp.
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    You seem to have for sure a bad battery. Maybe other problems too. Have you ever had the IMA light come on? Honda generally accepts that as an indicator for a new battery.
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    I tested the waters with an ad on Ebay and Craig's List. The highest offer I got so far is $10K. I haven't accepted it......yet. This is a 2006 with NAV and 93K miles and advertised as having a new battery with warranty.
  • pmzpmz Member Posts: 26
    I'd take the $10K. I traded in my 06 with 87K with the ailing battery and received $9.8K and was very pleased. Now I drive a CR-V, no more 42mpg, but no more fear of merging neither...
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    I have mixed feelings. The car performs as well as it ever did and I get good milage, plus I have a new battery with a 3 yr. 36K mile warranty. I would let it go for $12K, but I am not sure at $10K.
  • dhilldinerdhilldiner Member Posts: 48
    Do you mean the 2010 upgrade?

    A very good synopsis of what a lot of us are experiencing. My view is the software upgrade highlights the serious deficiencies of the Civic hybrid. It has a very small gas engine requiring constant and consistent help from the electric motor but the combination of a small gas engine and small hybrid battery pack are not robust enough to cover all types of driving conditions, such as using AC in start stop driving in hot weather. Furthermore, some of these IMA batteries are deteriorating and are making the Civic even less predictable and safe. And the software upgrade has reduced the consistency and amount of electric power which has made the acceleration more unpredictable and unsafe.

    Even before the battery problems and the software upgrade, I had frequent discharges and no electric assistance when I was driving in hot weather with the AC running in start and stop traffic. It didn't bother me at the time but I now think it is unacceptable and unsafe. I mean, Honda should have said the car is only fit for driving in temperate weather conditions and not in start and stop traffic.
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    I think you have described the crux of the problem. However, I must say I found the system acceptable with good milage and adequate acceleration in hot Florida until the battery began to deteriorate. I'm not sure that it would be the same in a hot, hilly location.
  • dhilldinerdhilldiner Member Posts: 48
    The system may be acceptable in most driving conditions with a fully working IMA battery but I'm not sure it is adequate for hot and hilly locations. But the IMA batteries are deteriorating in many of our cars after 2-4 yrs of driving and adversely affecting performance in less challenging driving conditions. This mechanic that fixes IMA battery claims that the IMA batteries get fried in hot weather driving http://www.hybrid-battery-repair.com/ Shouldn't Honda have figured this out when it was testing its system?
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    Obviously, Honda didn't do something right. Toyota does not have these type of problems to this extent.
  • grandtotalgrandtotal Member Posts: 1,207
    ...but I am not sure at $10K

    Are you nuts? I would not think twice if I found someone willing to give me that money for the car, but hey if you think you can find someone who'll give you $12k then good luck. Maybe I should look into selling my car on eBay/CL next time.
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    I don't think I am nuts. This is a car that I have maintained very well. It's in excellent shape, performs well, and has a new battery with warranty. I think most everyone would agree this little car handles well and is pleasant to drive when everything is right. When you trade cars early, your cost per year goes up as compared to keeping a car that is taken good care of for the long run.
  • grandtotalgrandtotal Member Posts: 1,207
    I understand (and agree with) everything you have posted, and I doubt you can teach me anything about the cost of running a car. Having said that I think you have a good offer for your car and if it were me in your position I'd take it.
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    And the reason you would take it is?
  • shonda3shonda3 Member Posts: 42
    Cars don't go up in value. They only depreciate. Take it, takah.
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    Not a good reason. The rate of depreciation goes down in time. If the price of fuel were to go up substantially, the price of hybrids would go up too.
  • jcihakjcihak Member Posts: 60
    The cheapest car you can own is the one you have. Unless that car is a lemon, or has design deficiencies. After my experience and reading these forums, the HCH's defects are apparent. They are even showing up the Consumer Reports ratings for the car which is significantly worse than the non-hybrid. The cost of the batteries and CVT alone outweigh any savings in gasoline over the non-hybrid. And, the non-hybrid is much, much better to drive. I regret trading mine in for the hybrid.

    More and more people realize these facts, and don't forget that the HCH is an old design that will not be able to compete with newer hybrid designs. I am glad I got rid of mine when I did. No worries and no regrets.
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    I agree with you. However, if you have already sunk the money in the car and the defects have been repaired, and you have a new battery warranty, the car performs well, and you don't detest it, it has been well maintained and is in good shape, then wouldn't you be better off driving it---at least for the new warranty period? This car performed well and saved a lot of fuel until about 90K miles. The 50% cost I paid for the new battery wiped out a big portion of the fuel savings, but that is a sunk cost now. In other words, I can only recoup my investment by driving it. It should go at least another 90K miles without any major problems, even though I may not keep it that long. In fact I would sell it now if I didn't have to take a big cost hit--only because I prefer a little larger car with more utility.
  • grandtotalgrandtotal Member Posts: 1,207
    edited October 2010
    And the reason you would take it is?

    Because you want to sell it and because you have found someone ill-informed enough to pay more than it is worth. Yeah, I know, well maintained, new battery, and so on, but it's still only worth what it's worth.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    edited October 2010
    If the price of fuel were to go up substantially, the price of hybrids would go up too.

    I'm not sure that's true, but I know something that is true. Cars that we drive around are NOT an "investment". They only go down in price as the miles pile up and or the years go by. Say the price of gas is higher a year from now. The car is a year older.

    (I feel like we're on Deal or No Deal) :P
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    Just because something goes down does not mean it is not an investment. A car is an investment in transportation. You get value from using it.

    True, value usually goes down as the car ages and miles add up. However, if gas goes up, the value could be more for a hybrid than it would otherwise be.
  • jcihakjcihak Member Posts: 60
    edited October 2010
    A car is much more of a consumable and not an investment. As you drive the car, you use wear it down and use it up. It is no more an investment in transportation than the tires you buy, or the gasoline you burn. The HCH is certainly no collectible and its incremental mpg improvement over the regular civic is so small it is rarely a justifiable expenditure. When you take into account its worse reliability, cost of batteries and CVT, there is no reason I can think of to buy one.

    In fact, we have seen that in consumer response to the HCH. People are much more likely to buy a Prius if the price of gas goes up. I own / have owned 7 Hondas including a HCH and would pick the Prius over the HCH in a second.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    edited October 2010
    If and could... Once I purchase a vehicle I always consider its "value" to be "one car". That's what it's worth to me. If it maintains some of its monetary value come trade-in or time to sell it, the more, the better for sure, but I think the only thing i might be able to count on is it going down less than I expected, not going up
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    You are right in the sense that you don't expect to make a profit when you purchase a car and it does get used up. However, you do expect a worthwhile result in having good, and maybe economic, transportation. That is the investment part. It may or may not meet your investment expectations as you use it. A car can be a good or bad investment in transportation even though no profit is expected. And I agree with you that the Prius is a better initial hybrid investment than the Civic. However, once you have invested, there are a whole bunch of other factors depending on a particular situation that determines whether it would be better to drive or sell.
  • suethebastardssuethebastards Member Posts: 4
    When Honda finally called me about my ima battery software update letter they referred to themselves as "American" Honda. I couldn't help but wonder what "Japan" Honda has to say about their ima battery, since they make a point of saying on the decal on the car "Made in Japan"? When did Honda lose their dedication to building and backing a quality product?
    Anyway, I didn't read all the posts and I tried to research any posts about a class action lawsuit(but found only one post) directly addressing the ima battery and how they broke the contract,imo, when the software update was
    installed. So I regret to ask a question that has already been addressed here but is there a class action suit in the works to join? Thanks for any info.
    Mark
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    The forums cannot be used to organize legal actions so please don't make any posts along those lines as they will have to be removed. Just the rules of the road. Thanks!
  • dhilldinerdhilldiner Member Posts: 48
    You have a worthy point that it may make sense to keep driving the Civic if you have already replaced your IMA battery. The problem I have with getting a new IMA battery is I'm afraid they will deteriorate within a few years which means I could be in another battle with Honda or I will have to repair or replace them.

    Even if I had confidence that a new IMA battery pack would function well for 100K, my opinion is the Civic hybrid's design is fundamentally flawed - an inadequate gas engine and limited battery capacity means it is really not safe -- you will be deprived of adequate acceleration in some driving conditions, such as running the ac in hot weather in start and stop traffic.
  • bosslessbossless Member Posts: 179
    you will be deprived of adequate acceleration in some driving conditions, such as running the ac in hot weather in start and stop traffic.

    I have not noticed this problem with a good battery. It happened a lot when battery was bad.
  • suethebastardssuethebastards Member Posts: 4
    sorry,my bad pf_flyer, I didn't do my research.
    mark
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    No problem... I appreciate your understanding
  • ill2006ill2006 Member Posts: 8
    My HCH IMA battery made it to 110k mi. before the software update did it in. RIP IMA battery you served me well. Honda, whether it be American or Japanese, is making a huge PR mistake with this one. They only need to look at Ford's Firestone tire problems or Toyota's sticking accelerator problem to figure out where this is going for them. I believe their decisions are coming straight from HQ in Japan.
    One does not by a new car for an investment. It is essentially a tool to take you from A to B. Since the car is running fine, I will keep it indefinately. I find Consumer Reports to be nitpicky. For the longest time they were recommending the car as a best buy, both new and used. Let's not take our eyes off the real problem, the software update. I believe Honda rushed a defective software patch onto us. I don't think they took into consideration individual driving habits or the age/milage of the batteries.
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