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Comments
The IMA light came on during a recent trip over Christmas (250+ miles). It came on while I was running low on gas and the "gas pump" indicator light was showing for about 15-20 miles (I have run with the gas indicator light on before with no issue and my IMA is probably not related to the low gas but I thought I would provide the information).
After checking in the owners manual I made an appointment with our local Honda dealer a few days after the IMA light came on (and never went off by the way). I have just returned from the dealer and I was told their tests indicate "the IMA battery system is bad and it needs to replaced at the cost of $3785".
Not pleased I asked if driving the car in "this condition" was a problem, and they said no but you may have decreased performance issues, I walked out without ordering a new IMA battery system. My gas mileage has been regularly around 45+ mpg, but in the last couple of weeks it has dropped to 41-42 mpgs. I am unsure if the IMA issue is to blame.
Concerned about not knowing enough, I googled the problem and I found this forum and here I am. After reading many issues with HCH IMA, particularly for 2006 HCH, I sense that my need to replace the battery any time soon is not a priority (perhaps I am wrong). I also see I may need to take it to my local corner gas station mechanic who is damn good, and have it put it on his computer so I can get a "second opinion". I should have taken it to him for the first opinion but I guess I was worried about the IMA system problem being too complicated for him.
My plans. I am not going to replace the entire IMA battery system unless there is overwhelming need to do so since I do not want to spend almost $3800.
1. Any thoughts from the forum members about the need (safety is my obvious concern) of having to replace the IMA battery system soon?
2. Can I drive this car, even if the IMA totally fails and use it as a just small gas engine car but with a reduction in mpg performance. There must be reasons this won't work as it seems too easy.
3. Are there "fixes" either I can do, or my mechanic can do such as: charging up the IMA system when parked (running the RPM to 5000 for several minutes as I believe someone suggested); driving the car and making sure I charge up the IMA by "coasting" down hills as much as possible; other ideas???
3
We have been fortunate with our dealer. They gave us a free rental (new Civic, non-hybrid), without any questions.
But this suggests that there is a problem with this component. And from reading the other posts here, it is not a new problem. How do we get Honda's attention?
My HCH 2003 started with IMA and Check Engine lights turning on very frequently (like 20 or 30 miles after resetting the computer). Several months ago it was not so frequent.
Gas mileage also gradually has dropped from around 45 to 42 or less.
I had to take it to the Dealer, because in this condition the car does not pass the State Inspection tests. The computer codes do not have enough time to become ready.
They are replacing the IMA battery for $2760 and possibly the control module if needed (for another $1800 or so).
My car has 96000 miles on it and I am in Texas, so my IMA battery is out of warranty. However, the new battery will have a 3 year/36000 miles warranty only.
I wonder if the warranty period for replaced IMA batteries is like this in other places.
Also they said that there is a "core" cost of more than $3,000 if I want to keep the old battery!
Thought I would post on here a quick synopsis of my Honda story. It's similar to a lot of others issues that have posted on the forum as well. For the first 50,000 miles my car got roughly 42-45mpg on average. Then over a 2-3 week time period it drastically decreased and is only getting 32-34mpg on average.
1. I took my car to local dealership and told there was not a problem. I thought to myself ok it's not too bad yet I will just keep an eye on it. Of course it got worse, so...
2. Take my car back to dealership. They tell me they duplicated my issue. Called Honda tech line who told them they were working on a car with almost the same issue. Tech line told them they replaced the battery and loaded new software into the car but neither one fixed the problem. The dealership's resolution was to WAIT for a fix? Hmmm.
3. Called honda corporate. Was told to get a "second opinion" so I took my car to the only other dealership in Tucson, AZ (Dobbs Honda) who told me they also duplicated my problem, called Honda tech line, Tech line faxed them a Questionnaire surrounding my problem that I needed to fill out so they could fax back to them and then I needed to wait.
4. Called Honda corporate back, was asssigned a case manager who I spoke with about my IMA issues (just like everyone else is having here) and he said he would talk to the dealerships and tech line then get back to me within 1 week. He called me back and told me my car was "operating within normal circumstances" and that there was nothing wrong with it. Heat can cause it to start its safety feature which automatically turns itself off so it doesnt get damaged, etc. He also told me to read page 76 (I think that's the page) of my manual.
5. I stayed in contact with him (Morris is his name, my case manager) over several months, continued called and expressing my dissatisfaction. Finally today he called me back again and I had a rather lengthy discussion with him. Told him I wanted either my car replaced or a $4000 credit applied to the remainder of my loan because if I wanted Civic EX gas mileage then I would have purchased a Civic EX for $4000 less than a Hybrid. He basically told me to screw myself, wouldn't give me his supervisor's name and extension, etc, etc.
I told him I was going to no longer purchase Honda products, no longer refer people to Honda, no longer get my 2 Honda's serviced at Honda dealerships, file a NHTSA safety complaint, file a BBB complaint because I was blatantly lied to regarding Honda tech line's MYTH car that EVERYONE is told they have worked on, consistently send letters to corporate, my local dealership, and finally contact KGUN 9 News on your side here in Tucson, AZ to try and get my story aired.
After coming across this forum I decided that I am indeed going to do each and everyone of these things, but I also might speak with a lawyer regarding a class action lawsuit because it seems that there are more of us out there than I had expected!
Thanks for listening to my story,
Sean
Tucson, AZ
I wonder if the warranty period for replaced IMA batteries is like this in other places. "
There is a Federal law that requires a minimum of 8 years / 100K miles on the hybrid components, which includes the main traction battery. So your battery replacement should be under warranty. I am pretty sure this warranty applies to all hybrids built after 2004, but I'm not sure about before that.
CARB states are provided with a 10 year / 150K warranty on the hybrid components.
The only real advantage to IMA over a dual mode hybrid is that it doesn't interfere with the powertrain if the battery stops functioning. So in theory you could drive it, at least for a while, without the battery. But I wouldn't recommend it - the vehicle was really meant for hybrid driving, not ICE driving, and besides 1.3L is just a DOG without the IMA...
Anybody else seeing a significant drop off in mpg in cold weather? Note: I will excuse the Phoenix posters from offering any insights or snide comments.
And naturally my car inspection is overdue. My garage won't pass it with the error. So now I have no inspection sticker with the car totally drivable getting 45 mpg in January and I have the dumb error that I now have to address very soon.
I am wondering about the ebay used batteries for sale, or a junk yard's... besides very limited guarantees and saving quite a bit of $$$, anythng else to consider? How heavy is the battery pack? How difficult would it be for an intermediate level mechanic (me) to change the battery pack? If one ensures the battery's big power switch is off while one works, how hard/dangerous can this be to change? Any other alternatives possible?
We bought a 2009 HCH and live in Fargo. I was driving home from work at -37 (-53 windchill) driving 57mph at light throttle on level terrain (is there any other in ND). My IMA/check engine lights came on at this point. The engine temp was about 1/2 its optimum temperature (3-4 bars).
I took it into the dealer (Corwin Honda) and found the battery had failed to communicate to the computer. The batteries would still charge and assist, but there was a point that triggered the error codes. Corwin removed the codes, drove the car for 20 minutes attempting to recode the battery failure, and gave us a questionnaire to fill out if this were to happen again so they can send documentation to Corporate Honda for testing.
I suggested it might not be a bad idea to test vehicles in the upper midwest during winter, as they are also tested in extreme heat down in AZ or CA. So far I have been achieving between 35 and 45 mpg. This depends on how I drive (typically no faster than 70 with a light throttle and driving by the econ instead of the speedometer) and how long I have let the car run idle, as this will decrease the displayed mpg in the dash. If I am in no hurry and do this carefully, I can achieve 60 mpg on the interstate with speeds up to 65 mph, slight tail wind, no CC, and above 0 degree weather.
Hopefully this does not occur again, but I am ready with a record book of my driving habits so I can best determine the drivability during the time of computer coding. Cold weather will drop fuel mileage no matter what simply because of the air density and heat transfer between gradients inside the cylinder heads. One idea I have is to tie in a heated battery blanket into a block heater cord, so that when the car is plugged in both the engine block and battery bank "preheat."
Perhaps someday infrared technology will be used for window defrosters and solar power technology can keep the powertrain warm before travel. Being an engineer, I can always dream of the future, because it will never be the same come the next sunrise.
I then took it to a ford dealership where I know the owner, and they said the same exact thing--
The car had depreciated so much, that it was worth almost nothing at the point of trade in--- even at carmax-- because of the obvious battery problem. Apparently it had been dead for a while-- no light came on, but my gas milage went way south.
I thought I had at least another 20,000 or so miles until this problem. I will never buy honda again! Does anyone else know of a problem like this?
Thanks!
Bottom line, I can't believe it failed so close after 80K. I saw some references in this post to certain states covering warranties on batteries for 8 years / 100K. Does anyone have any specific details on the federal or state law? I'd wanted to check it out to see what rights I may have. I live in MA. I have a 2003 Civic Hybrid.
My 2006 civic hybrid has not performed properly since October 2007. It has been in the shop 8 times for the problem, but Honda is unable to fix it. I have reported problems to the local dealer's service department by email many more times. I have been told that there is no problem, that is a "characteristic of the vehicle" and that the loss of performance is "normal at this time". I have also been told that I have to "wait for American Honda to update the software in the computer" on the vehicle. Once I was told to "direct the AC vents toward the back seat of the car to cool the IMA battery" when the battery discharges in hot weather. The loss of power when the IMA fails to assist renders the car very sluggish and dangerous in city or freeway driving when normal power may be needed. A report was filed with the national highway traffic safety administration at safercar.Gov (complaint number 10241683) due to the safety issue of degraded performance. A Honda customer service customer case was opened n012008-08-2600489. The car has recently failed to assist in cold weather conditions also. Due to the number of complaints I see on the automotive forums, it appears to be a design defect and/or engineering problem.
Honda has responded with this (spelling errors are theirs):
After reviewing the case history on the consumers vehicle, it has been found that the consumer's vehicle has no defeft. The "problem" the customer is experiencing is a product characteristic of the vehicle, and there is no repair for a characteristic.
Initial Response Summary
This is a product characteristic. No repairs avaiable.
I think all owners who have had problems should at least file a complaint with the NHTSA at www.safercar.gov and with the LA BBB. I think Sean's idea about a class action lawsuit is looking better and better.
On the one hand, I am really annoyed with Honda for not being more honest about these issues. And I'm not sure we will see the real hybrid benefit in a cold weather climate.
On the other hand, I understand the Prius has similar problems. And I know enough Chemistry and Physics to understand that the chemical reactions are all influenced by temperature, and that all materials will be stressed when undergoing continuous temperature cycling.
Thus, it seems that the laws of chemistry and physics will put a natural limit on the ultimate performance of all batteries. This technology is probably a long-term dead end, although it will have some short-term success. Honda is already testing a fuel cell vehicle in CA, and that looks to be the wave of the future. Fortunately, we leased our HCH, and doubt we will be keeping it!
Your service center probably either doesn't handle many hybrids or they are just blowing you off. If you read this forum you will see that there are many people with the problem. It is a known issue with Honda and you should talk with the service manager to complain about getting the "gee, we've never seen this problem before" excuse. It reflects poorly on your dealer's sense of customer service.
Our dealer gave us a loaner for FREE, with no questions asked (but then they saw three battery failures within a two month period). Go back and complain. If you don't get any satisfaction, complain to the attorney general in your state, or maybe the BBB. Our battery took about three weeks to replace.
There are companies out there that can repair your battery for less than $1,000. Search on google if you haven't bought the new battery yet.
BTW, $2,700 is typical for the northeast, while $4,000 is typical for California.
I suspect part of the battery pack might be bad. I also suspect it might be because the car was sitting unused for about four months in the dealer's back lot before I bought it (which is why I got such a great deal on it). When I first test drove it, it had 9 miles and the main battery had to be jump started to get the car going, which the salesman said was because it hadn't been driven in several months. It wasn't until after I bought the car and read the owners manual, specifically the section on storing the car unused, that I read that not running the car at least once a month can cause permanent damage to the battery pack, so I suspect that might be the case. I just wanted to check with those who have had their HCH's for awhile though to confirm that my experience is in fact not normal.
Thanks
Tim in Arizona
Your battery is brand-spanking new. The odds of an imbalance are small.
Here's what I think is wrong. The dealer never did a battery learn procedure. Because the 12V battery was dead, it forgot the parameters. It has no idea where full and empty are. Have them reset the IMA system and relearn the battery. Make sure they do it for free.
I go up steep mountain highways on a regular basis, without cruise control, if my batteries have an 80% charge the IMA system will provide 2-4 minutes of assist. This variance is dependant up how much depand I place on the IMA with the position of the gas petal. If the IMA is running at 100%, I may get only 2 minutes of full blown assist before the batteries levels are down to 3 bars or so. At 3 or so bars, my IMA simply tries to limit the amount of IMA assistance but it will allow me to "burst" several times utilizing IMA at 100%. I'm able to easily drain my batteries going up long moutain hills if I'm not careful and don't plan ahead. And not planning ahead isn't an option given the Civic Hybrid has to run it's engine at 5200 RPM to simply make it up a hill on it's own (in Cruise Control mode or if the IMA batteries are drained). That is absolutely unacceptable and for the driving I do, makes the car a task to drive. On the flip side, if all you do is city computting to work the Honda can make sense....but I feel there are a good number of Civic owners who didn't fully understand the limitations of the Honda IMA system when they bought there car.
One of my biggest complaints about the Civic Hybrid is the IMA electric motor. Because it only provides 80 or so lbs of torque, the whole Hybrid system is just to inadequate for a whole host of driving conditions. The Prius electric motor provides almost 300 lbs of torque and thus does not suffer from the same issues. The same battery power in the Prius will last longer simply because it can run it's motor at 33% power and provide the same power the Civic IMA does at 100% capacity. I guess that's what Honda gets for not developing their own technology and simply purchasing Toyota's old technology.
After 48,000 miles, I've had enough of Honda....I'm selling my Hybrid and buying an 09 Chevy Malibu LTZ (it gets 33mpg on the highway). I can't wait to drive a car on the highway, set the cruise control, and enjoy the drive like God intented!!!!
Totally incorrect. Honda did not purchase Toyota's old technology.
Could you tell us where we can read up on CARB states extending hybrid component warranties to 10Y/150K (Federal law URL)?
Thank you.
K
Also, on some hills it seems to not assist at 6 of 8 bars of battery charge now so it seems to be getting worse. Other times it will assist until the battery it down to 4 or rarely 3 bars (like before). I have also noticed the battery will sometimes seem to drop very quickly from 6 bars down to 4, in about 10 seconds or less. I haven't actually seen it do it while I am staring at it (seeing as how I am also trying to pay attention to the road), but I look at it one moment and it is at 6 bars charged, and the IMA system is assisting, and then I look back 5-10 seconds later and it is at 4 bars.
I described this to the dealer service guy and he said that the battery charge indicator isn't actually always reflective of the actual charge - it may just be an estimate. He also said that formerly Honda got a lot of complaints from people with HCHs that the battery would run down to one or 2 bars and then there wouldn't be enough power for emergencies so Honda reprogrammed the IMA system to not get so low. But that doesn't really make sense, unless it is reserving the 3 bars of power for when it is really needed (like when you slam on the gas), but even when I slam on the gas and run the tacaometer to about 6000 rpm, it still won't assist.
Any other wisdom or advice? If the battery (or part of it) is bad, will the IMA light necessarily come on?
Thanks
Tim
That is called a downward recal. They will start happening more and more frequently. On an Insight, when they start happening daily, a P1447 will usually occur. What is happening is that the car thinks it has a half charge and suddenly detects that it has bottomed out and starts the process of determining the new "empty" point. The reason this is happening is because the capacity of the battery is decreasing. Some of the cells are not taking much of a charge, so they don't have much to give. The car has to go by the weakest cell even though the rest have plenty of charge. Reconditioning all the cells and replacing the bad and marginal ones will correct the problem.
Your car is heading for a P1433 error. When you get it, you may want to consider rebuilding the battery to save money.
I contacted American Honda and after a review of my case, they declined any assistance, even after saying I was considering replacing it myself, the possibility of electrocution and what the press could do with that. I thought I had laid it on very thick! No good, sigh.
I located an IMA from a 2005 with (they claimed) 22,000 miles from a junk yard - excuse me - auto recycling center. It was $150. I repeat, $150. Its funny, when I asked who else had bought these in the past, I was surprised to learn two different inventor types bought one each Go U.S.A.! I didn't hear of someone like me to replace one. The salesperson told me, "now you know its $150?", to which, trying to contain myself, I said "that's fine, I understand."
I took out the old one and put the new one in. I had an owner's repair manual so followed the procedure religiously. Maybe it took 3 hours going slow and safe. I went overboard with rubber gloves so that slows anyone down. I'd guess it should take a Honda mechanic 45 minutes and me shorter too to repeat.
The battery is about 60 pounds. Later when the car was getting repaired by the dealer (not IMA related), I convinced them to take the old one, which a recycler would pick up.
The car is fine. No software needs to be reloaded. I get approximately the same mileage I used to, although I think it was less during the winter in the Northeast. When the temperature got above 40 it seems to be pretty comparable. At 132,000, I've put 4,000 miles on the replacement. it seems to be charging fine and the capacity is about the same in the warmer weather.
So, if you have intermediate mechanical abilities, you should consider purchasing a used IMA battery. As 2003-2005 cars are aging, the lifetime expectancy lessens on this option. But even so, $150 is real different than $2700, so if I get 48 mpg in warm (70F) and 35 in cold (20F), I am way ahead economically.
Also, this buys me some time until Honda produces cheaper batteries (if ever) with the new Yuasa partnership, plus reuse of an old battery is just a green thing for this old earth.
Here are some of the issues I now have. The car has been at the Honda Service, they can not find anything wrong.
1. The IMA acts more or less random. Sometimes it kick in for a split second then goes away when I accelerate. On the old model it stayed on as long as I applied gas.
2. The Battery Indicator does not appear to be accurate. I have never seen it do a full charge like my old car did
3. It often feels like driving a brick. Many times when I drive around 45 Miles per hour and want to enter a 65 miles high way, I have to accelerate to get to that new speed or I will cause an accident. The IMA seems unable to kick in!. I can see the RPM of the engine go all the way up to 6000 RPM when I try to get up to speed, the RED area is 6200 so the engine is working more than overtime. It takes up to a minute to get it up to speed and the IMA NEVER kicks in!.
4. When I drive in mountain areas or up hills it almost rolls backward!. Well no, but again the IMA does not appear to do anything.
BUT the IMA does work when I drive slow , but never the way it used to on my old model when it actually assisted the engine when it needed power!.
Please help me, this is driving my crazy
Most IMA batteries that have been sitting in junkyards will fail within their first year (usually at the 9 month mark) with P1447 or P1433 errors. This is due to the fact that they have been left sitting for 90 or more days without being charged. If this happens to you, you should not replace it again (because it will happen again) but have it rebalanced to correct the damaged caused by the extended sitting.
BTW, $150 is very cheap. They are usually $250.
It describes some of the factors which can affect how the IMA system will respond. This gave some logic to the seeming randomness of the system. I don't know if I changed or the car changed but it seems to be doing better now, after I hit about 4000 miles. I think I mostly got used to the way it drove.
Also, there is a software update for the IMA system so you might want to check with your dealer to see if your car has been updated or not. I only bought my 09 hch less than 2 months ago and it hadn't received the update, so it is quite possible that your car also might have been manufactured before the latest software update.
The warranty is 8 years/80,000 miles on the battery.
Not sure what everything means, but hopeful that can help.
I had the work done 4/14 and I have an 09 HCH delivered to the dealer in 11/08. I don't know if possibly my 09 was manufacturer earlier than yours. I would guess the cars being manufactured after the updates were released would already come with the latest software, so perhaps your car already had the latest updates when it was delivered.
HOWEVER after about 2 days of waiting Honda came back and basically said, "Sorry this is a known issue. Nothing we can do. We will call you back when we have a fix for this problem." The official documentation I received from Honda said, "heat issue".