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On my 11-mile drive home, I spent 7 miles on the interstate at 65 mph cruise control and then 4 miles in stop-and-go driving and got 49 mpg. It was night and day from the bad battery/bad software we all had been suffering through.
I don't know how the software update would have performed without a new battery (per my previous post, my battery was failing prior to the previous software "fix"). I think it would still have been an improvement. Regardless, I'm now a big fan of my car again. Good luck to everyone in dealing with Honda. I feel fortunate because I had gotten a battery failure code prior to the update and was able to get them to listen to me as a result.
Did you get a different one.
http://www.hybridcars.com/files/A10-034.pdf
Regardless, I talked to both the tech and the service advisor after the repair. The tech told me the new battery had come with new software. I asked if it was different from the previous update, and he said it was. Again, I had the original software update done. The service papers outlining what was performed made reference to the effect of "installed new software for new battery."
Thanks for your recommendations.
Anyway, to recap, this is what it took for me to get there:
Nov 2011 - IMA and Check Engine lights on. P0A7F error code returned and fix was to install new software update. Was told that that should fix things but I pressed them on the issue. They tell me if the lights come back on the next step would be to order a new battery under warranty.
Feb 2011 - IMA and Check Engine lights back on...nearly 3 months to the day. Took it to Autozone and got another P0A7F error code. Scheduled an appointment with Honda but couldn't get in for a week. In that time the lights mysteriously turned back off. Kept the appointment anyway and Honda tells me they don't see any stored error codes. Nothing they can do until it comes on again despite the fact that I have pictures and the print-out from Autozone. I'm reassured that they "I've worked here since XX year and I haven't seen many batteries need replaced". I leave to go home and less than 5 minutes later the freaking lights turn back on. I call Honda but it was close to closing and all techs had left for the night so I was asked to bring it back the next day. I drop it off before 8AM and and given a Civic LX rental for the day. Wow that thing had some pep compared to my car! By 4PM had not heard anything so called to get status. I don't hear back until 5PM and they tell me they've ordered a new battery. I'm reassured by a different person that they've worked here XX years and battery replacements are rare...is this part of their corporate FAQ training?? Tomorrow it gets installed and yes, the warranty is shorter. I'm SOL there.
THE END.
I hope my good mileage returns with the new battery at the least. And, unless something miraculous happens I will have to plan on dumping this car in the next 2-3 years to avoid paying another battery out of pocket. Good luck to everyone else with their issues.
Also dawgcat, how does your car behave now with new battery and new SW update as compared to when you got the car new, or before you had any battery issues?
Has anyone had any luck getting the battery replaced but not doing any SW updates? The dealer says I need my battery replaced, but I have not done the original SW update yet, I'm hoping I can just get the battery replaced and not do any SW updates.
I have both the new battery and the software update and my car performs as good as new. I'm hoping that this time the battery is preserved as stated by Honda.
Does anyone know the exact terms I should ask? I don't want Honda saying, "oh we thought you meant this or that, we didn't test your battery." I them to be clear as what test I want done.
My timeline with this vehicle:
1. Purchased Feb 2009
2. Got 43-52mpg highway & 43mpg highway/city
3. August 2009 mileage decreased to 43 highway & 39 highway/city
4. IMA light on Nov 2009, software upgrade
5. Poor to no assist, battery drops to 1 bar, averages 4-6 bars, Auto Stop is random
6. Mileage down to 39 highway & 37 highway/city
7. IMA light on Dec 2009, new battery installed.
8. Mileage 37-39 highway & 34-36 highway/city.
9. Dec 2010, IMA light again. Honda software update.
10. Car maintains 4-6 bars, Mileage 38 highway & 36-38 city/highway, Auto Stop more frequent, Assist more frequent but ceases above 3000RPM.
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Jeannine Fallon
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Below is a copy of my mileage excel sperad sheet.
New Hybrid Car
31-Jul-10 23307 0 0.0000 0.00
16-Aug-10 23712 405 10.1400 39.94
25-Aug-10 24100 388 9.7180 39.93
30-Aug-10 24493 393 8.7180 45.08 Vacation trip
2-Sep-10 24846 353 7.6620 46.07 Vacation trip
4-Sep-10 25113 267 6.8190 39.16 Mostly city
17-Sep-10 25336 223 6.1470 36.28 Mostly city
27-Sep-10 25631 295 7.4230 39.74
13-Oct-10 26040 409 9.4130 43.45 Mostly highway
30-Oct-10 26330 290 8.6480 33.53 Mostly city
16-Nov-10 26649 319 8.5630 37.25 Mostly city
1-Dec-10 26967 318 9.6880 32.82 Mostly city
18-Jan-10 27252 285 10.1330 28.13 Mostly city
30-Dec-10 27521 269 8.1830 32.87 Mostly city
29-Jan-11 27734 213 8.7150 24.44 Mostly city
21-Feb-11 28010 276 8.9200 30.94 Mostly city
I've asked a dealer and they said that my software is up-to-date. It seems like Honda may have finally fixed the software update for the 2006 - 2008 models (early this month) but what about the 2009 - 2010 (and possibly 2011)? Are we stuck with the faulty software? Or is there something else wrong with the car. Since my car has about 41K miles (out of full warranty), the dealer won't check it out without me paying over $100.
Tech at my local Honda told me I needed to pull over rev the engine to recharge battery. Yeah right, I guess I should get out and push too.
I had the IMA light on recently and they did another software update. Don't get the battery crashes as much. Performance still sucks. Like you going uphill the assist will quit above 3000 RPM's.
I never got the mileage advertised on the sticker during city driving. I experimented quite a bit with driving style to boost the mileage, but had very little luck. I was willing to chalk that up to living in a city with poorly timed lights and driving a fair number of small hills (Baltimore). It was pretty frustrating to get 30 mpg in city (especially since I have gotten similar gas mileage for in city driving in a much less expensive car), but I did at least get mpgs in the mid-40s to low 50s mpg during highway driving.
That is, of course, until my IMA light came on about a month ago. The battery charge had been behaving erratically over the past 8 months or so, so it wasn't a surprise. Took the car to Honda, they applied some software updates and told me I needed a new oxygen sensor. Got the car back and now I get 36-38 mpg on a stretch of highway where I used to get 50-52. The electric motor, where it would formerly kick on during small inclines and limit the increase in gas motor RPMs basically does nothing - even indicating that it is charging when the rpms have increased on the gas motor to get up a small incline sometimes. The battery charge indicator is still pretty erratic as well, though now it only drops to two bars instead of showing none. I'm currently just crossing my fingers that the battery lasts until I can get a new car later this summer.
My personal opinion is that Honda nerfed the hybrid system because they found that the systems were failing early (inadequate battery size? not designed in the proper band to maximize life?) and wanted to save warranty money - in particular in the states where the battery warranty has been pushed to 150,000 miles.
My initial frustration with the car has become complete dissatisfaction. I'll never buy another Honda.
On another note, I've had no response from Honda regarding the February 1 service bulletin. I had to leave a message (interesting how this guy is always out of the office) requesting a call back. That's been almost 2 weeks ago. Unfortunately, with my job I can only try to call him on weekends. :P My biggest concern is that he will say the service bulletin is for 06-08, and I don't qualify, even though they've had to service my 09 for the same problems. Either that, or say there is no difference in the February and July bulletins. I have a copy of the July one, but can't seem to get the February one.
This is getting really tiresome. I think as soon as I get some "good" mileage going, I'm trading the sucker in. My blood pressure can't take much more of this. :mad:
http://money.cnn.com/2011/03/01/autos/honda_civic_hybrid_battery_problems/
I am one of those HCH owners who are having problems with the battery. I have an 09 whose battery crashed in Dec 09 and was replaced and in Dec 10 another IMA light/software upgrade. Honda has performed updates on my car and they have decreased the cars performance. I have had assist issues, auto stop, recals, mediocre charge levels and poor MPG.
My local Honda dealer (Visalia Honda... Thanks to them for ackowledging) today (3/2/11) acknowledged they are experiencing a lot of battery problems/replacements and have advised Honda USA that it is not poor driving habits of its customers. I advised them that I am paying the price of a hybrid, but getting the performance of a regular Civic.
I hope Honda installs the lithium batteries in prior HCH.
The problem with the HCH are the batteries. They are far too small. Honda needs to either install larger battery packs or the new Lithium Ion packs. If they do not, this problem will continue and seriously tarnish the Honda name.
I did have a lengthy conversation with my local Honda dealer in Visalia, CA about my car (mpg loss, loss of assist, auto stop, poor charging, etc) and they acknowledged Honda has a problem and they stated they are fighting for us local customers. I have to thank them for finally stepping up to the plate. Hopefully Honda USA will do the right thing.
If you read up on hp vs torque on different sites, they all talk about how important torque is in acceleration. I haven’t seen torque mentioned in the discussion so far. I thought I would add my two cents. This may explain why weight/hp ratios are comparable with other cars while we have all noticed how sluggish the car is when the electric motor does not kick in. I am looking forward to your feedback.
I have had it with my 07 HCH. Like some of you, I hate my HCH since the software update last November :mad: . I get behind the wheel and quickly near rage when I see my average mileage down from 38mpg to 30mpg. Then the bizarre reving of the engine... and all of the rest..
Part of my anger with this situation comes from Honda's lack of "customer care". I called my local Honda (Weseloh Honda in San Juan Capistrano, CA) to try to get a software reversal and was told that they were just as shocked about the software and that Honda America had left them high and dry on this issue. I was told that "there is nothing they could do" if I brought the HCH in and that I should watch the internet blogs.
The bottom line is I am dropping off my HCH for service on April 1 and plan on leaving it there for at least a week.
Please join me in National IMA Service Day April 1st, 2011.
You need to watch this carefully. What are the conditions and timing when this happens? Mine never did this until my battery started deteriorating. Now that I have a new battery, again, it never does this. Also, note your charge reading when you power down for the night, and compare it with the charge reading the next morning before you start it up. Mine got to the point where even though it had a full charge the night before, it would not start off of the hybrid battery the next morning (it started from the 12 volt backup starter).
As all of you I've been a recent victim to the IMA and check engine lights coming on, as well as a battery change. After the two lights of death appeared, I visited the dealership where they told me I needed to rev the engine up for a couple of minutes to recharge the battery before a I left home. Yeah sure; doesn't that defeat the purpose of a hybrid car in the first place?: To not have to rely on gasoline so much? Well, I went home and tried it, but obviously saw a decline in fuel economy and quantity. After a couple of days, I decided to simply let the engine recharge the battery by itself to 2 bars. It does this during the first 2 to 3 minutes after starting. After recharging up to 2 bars it stops and I'm able to leave without the IMA light showing up again (even after the battery had given the degradation indication). The IMA light hasn't illuminated and it has been 3 to 4 weeks since first indication.
Today I got my new battery and I'm still thinking if I should try the same thing again. Anyone have any thoughts?
P.S. I live uphill, and after getting two bars on battery charge indicator, I'm able to recharge most of it after I reach the end of the hill.
With the new battery you should not have to do anything special to operate the car. If you do, there is still a problem. I would just drive it normally and see what happens. If they have to keep working on it so be it. And if they can't fix it you should invoke the Lemon Law.
This is a non-negotiable rule of the road. Thanks for you cooperation on this!
The new software has also made the car very sluggish. This is not surprising, since I now have a Civic weighed down by the IMA battery that relies primarily on a 1.3l gas engine for propulsion.
Often while climbing a hill, the IMA will decide to recharge the dying battery. Ugh!
I have tried to remedy this with the dealer and directly with Honda America, but they refuse to acknowledge any problem. This is the last Honda I'll ever buy.
I also filed a safety complaint with the NHTSA (easy to do) in hopes that enough owners will complain and force NHTSA to act.
Actually, I'd find it very surprising, as the IMA battery weighs all of 68lbs, and the power-to-weight ratio of your Civic with no battery assist is higher than a Range Rover (ie. it is quicker) and IDENTICAL to a Prius with no battery assist.
"Often while climbing a hill, the IMA will decide to recharge the dying battery. Ugh!
This is a common misconception. It is testing your dying battery. Climbing the hill forced the battery to go out of spec and the car is trying to figure out what the battery is capable of. The 4 bar regen that you are seeing is a test and lasts about 75 seconds.
While the car is undeniably sluggish without assist, it is not experiencing poor economy because of that. On the open road, the IMA system does not improve economy at all. It only helps in stop and go traffic. What it DOES do is make the tiny little engine FEEL like a normal sized engine, giving you the experience of driving a normal car while actually sipping gas.
Tests of Honda Insights (2000-2006 models) have shown slightly higher gas mileage with the IMA battery disabled than with it enabled in highway and rural driving. In city driving it is slightly less due to the lack of Auto-stop. The Insight has a 3 cylinder 1.0 liter version of the same engine in your Civic. It's engine is basically yours with one of the four cylinders chopped off.
The reason you are experiencing a loss of fuel economy is twofold. The lifetime of 40 mpg or so shows that you drive your car somewhat6 aggressively - meaning that you accelerate strongly and possibly that you drive it fast. The problem is that any acceleration costs gas, and wind resistance takes a severe toll on fuel economy above 55 mph. There is nothing wrong with driving this way - most of America does - but you can't expect stellar fuel economy if you do. It's your choice.
The second reason is that your car is spending most of it's time charging your battery (which eats gas), but the battery is not taking the full charge, so it is being wasted. Your battery will either improve and this problem will go away, or it will get worse and it will fail and Honda will replace it under warranty.
I believe that your car is experiencing a recal in the morning due to a high self-discharge rate. The battery charge drops significantly overnight and in the morning, the car detects this and runs a calibration routine. This routine is as follows: the battery gauge drops to zero, one or two bars ( dependson the software) and the car applies a 4 bar charge. After 60-75 seconds, the charge lights go out and the gauge starts to climb to whatever level the battery is at. They make it climb slowly so as not to surprise you.
You are misinterpreting this because you are driving the car and you think the rising battery gauge is actually the bTtery charging. A normal battery will charge at a max of 50 amps for about 5 Ah which means 6 minutes (60*5/50). You see that rise in 30 seconds or so. It's not possible to actually charge it that fast. normal charging is about 1/4 of that rate, so 24 minutes.
To test this, start your car and just let it idle for two minutes. You'll see this behavior without ever touching the gas pedal.
Living at the top of a hill presents a challenge for any battery. The battery is very unlikely to be full when parked and all NiMH batteries are more susceptible to self-discharge based imbalances when they are parked empty than if they are parked full. There isn't a whole lot you can do about it, so you'll just have to accept the fact that your battery will only last 80% or so of what it would if you had a commute with level driving near the end. Things you can do to minimize this are to turn off your AC just before that last hill climb and to take it easy going up to minimize the amount of assist you use. Later, when your warranty is up, get a grid charger and top up the battery overnight. This will eliminate this problem.