USED European Luxury Cars (pre 1990)

Mr_Shiftright · July 2002

Don't count on any modern Mercedes ever being a collectible, because they make too many of them; however, some of the convertibles will always have a certain amount of value naturally. They just won't ever be worth more than MSRP or even close. That goes double for coupes. If you need convincing, just look at how the old V8 SLs are doing---some are 30 years old and still only worth $10K, near show for $15K, and the SLCs as low as $5K in good shape. Same with Corvettes, Vipers and all the rest. Too large of a production for the market to drive up the price. Supply will always meet demand.

im_brentwood · July 2002

I think E500s will be worth something in the future. I mean, they were pretty exotic and they never did make very many of them.

400Es? 300Es? Nope.

E320 Cabriolets? You make a great point, But look at actual wholesale values.. The suckers are wholesaling for more than 500SLs! And they are rare and in strong demand.

Will they always be expensive? I think so. Look at 280SE 4.5 Cabs, they have never been "cheap" cars.

A true collector car likea gullwing tho? I dont see it..

Bill

Mr_Shiftright · July 2002

Well, we'll have to see. I am very skeptical that they will ever be anything more than nice used cars you can buy at a big discount off MSRP.

Aside from rarity, beauty, style and all the rest is the big 600 pound gorilla of collectibility---someone has to care. And frankly, I don't think any of the cars you mentioned really will get collectors blood rising. They pretty much look like any other luxury German cabriolet. Certainly none of the visual power of a Gullwing. A '57 Chevy convertible will draw 100X as many people as a 320 Cabriolet.

I think these cars will be more of the type "picked off" by bargain hunters who want a lot of used car for the money and are willing to risk the problems of fixing complex cars out of warranty. You know, people like us

sddlw · July 2002

I'm not sure I am in agreement about the value of some of these older cars. I think there is a quantifiable value to these cars if the overall condition of the interior, paint, and mechanics are in premium condition, along with the few miles on them. Here's my thinking.

If you are going to buy and old car, and then try to gradually replace the worn seat covers, or scuffed dash, or stained carpet, or whatever, you will spend a fair amount of money. Especially on these old German cars. Also, except for the condition of the seals, and other rubber components like motor mounts and bushings, if the car was stored properly or driven a little every couple of weeks, you should have many miles to go on the mechanical side of things before you wear it out. This is not dissimilar to what we do when we buy a new car. We buy it and use it up. And take a huge hit in depreciation in doing so. Of course a new car is much more reliable, but in this case, I think your trading new car reliability for the fun of driving an older Mercedes.

I'm not defending $20K for an 81'SD. But if I was looking to buy one, and came across this one, in perfect condition in every little detail, I'd be willing to pay a premium price to get such a pristine car. Knowing all along that if I bought a car that wasn't in pristine condition, I'd start to gradually replace all the worn stuff and spend the money anyway.

Mr_Shiftright · July 2002

Oh, I have no argument about the "value" of some of these older German cars. All I'm saying is that they are not collectible, that is, as they get older they will get cheaper or at best stagnate in value.

But good, well cared for German luxury cars will always command a decent price vis a vis other used cars of the same type. You might get $5-6K for a pristine 1981 SD, but this is hardly possible for a pristine domestic 4-door or an old Japanese sedan.

lancerfixer · July 2002

I've got to make an overnight road trip on very short notice tonight (death in the family, have to go from Cedar Rapids to Buffalo) and the sealed beams in my car ('89 Volvo 740) are insufficient at best for long distance interstate night driving. Obviously, my optimum answer would be Cibies or a full E-Code conversion; unfortunately, I can't get anyone to beam these to my house in the next five hours (and I know, I shouldn't have waited this long. Most of my night driving is in the city,
so I don't really notice the bad lighting as much.) Therefore, I need a short term "Wal-Mart" solution. Does anyone have a good recommendation for off-the-shelf sealed beam lights?

magnetophone · July 2002

Do you have the quad lights or the two lights?

lancerfixer · July 2002

Quad sealed beams. The 740 went to the flush mounted dual lights in '90.

magnetophone · July 2002

The GE ones are probably not so bad. Best of luck on that drive. Maybe you should check last minute flights. They do give discounts for emergency matters such as this one.

Also, I've found last minute flights from Austin to seattle for 200. before, so I couldn't imagine Iowa to NY being any more than that, probably less.

lancerfixer · July 2002

The cheapest fare was $500, and I'd have to buy three tickets for the whole family. Oddly, it's always very expensive to fly from Cedar Rapids. Driving is best on such short notice. I guess I'll head down to Auto Zone and see what they have.

im_brentwood · July 2002

Try those Sylvania "Zenons" or whatever they are... but sealed beam technology does suck I am afraid.

Very sorry to hear about your loss

Bill

lancerfixer · July 2002

I know you just went through the death of a grandparent, so you know how it is. This wasn't exactly unexpected, as she was 86 and had been in very poor health of late. Still...well, you know. Thanks for the advice.

And you're right...sealed beams suck! Later I'll order the Cibies from iPd or (when Mrs. Lance isn't looking) the full E-Code conversion (though its cost is even hard to justify to myself!)

See you guys around Sunday or so.

im_brentwood · July 2002

If you get stuck, lemme know.

lancerfixer · July 2002

The Sylvanias made a big difference. The Brick performed flawlessly. Thanks, guys.

im_brentwood · July 2002

Welcome back. Dont look at my auctions, for your own good. You will hate me.

jrosasmc · August 2002

Just one quick question: Do Mercedes 240Ds and 300Ds from the early '80s have manual choke release levers on the left side? I was looking at an '85 300 on eBay and it seems pretty weird that the company was still using a manual choke that year.

Mr_Shiftright · August 2002

That's probably the glow plug device, not a choke.

lemko · August 2002

...a 1986 Mercedes-Benz 420SEL. The lady selling it is only asking $1,500. However, it is a very high-mileage car - 215K miles. The body is in good condition - no rust or dents. It has an aftermaket paint job. Not bad from a distance but mediocre at best. The chrome is a little dull. The interior is in good shape showing normal signs of wear - no tears in the vinyl or leather, dashboard is not cracked. Some of the wood trim varnish is "alligatored" The sun roof is not operational and the radio is crap.

The lady owned the car since it was new and I assume it's been well-cared for to last this long. I will demand the service records. What problems are peculiar to the 1980s S-Class. I understand these were some of the best built Mercedes of all time - better than their successors.

magnetophone · August 2002

Lemko, no no no! For the love of G-d! That could be a possibly sour experience on a Mercedes. I would not want you to be turned off due to its faults. An 80's Cadillac is essentially any other 80's GM car underneath so it's easily repairable. The S is indeed one of the best built Mercedes ever, but this car does not sound good. First of all, unless the car was in an accident, there is no need for a new paint job. Mercedes paint lasts for much longer.

I think you'd be much happier with a $7,000 300SE in later vintage with lower miles. The car certainly would pose less problems.

Given the amount of Mercedes Ses I see in such excellent condition, my instinct is that the only Mercedes worth buying is one that is a creampuff. Sort of like my 190E. The car had a 100% clean bill of health. I would not have bought it if that weren't the case for fear of a troublesome oldie.

jrct9454 · August 2002

...buying a 126 S-Class with these kinds of miles is an invitation to spend the next year, and thousands of dollars, fixing everything that is wrong, or likely to go wrong, with this very complicated piece of machinery. And then you'd still have a car that was essentially worthless in the marketplace.

Spend a little more money and get a lot less miles...and make sure those service records are indeed in order...I would never consider buying any used MB without a complete history.

Mr_Shiftright · August 2002

Never gamble more than you can afford to lose. If you can take an oath not to put more than $75 a month into that car, and to bail out at the first major component failure, well, okay. Drive it around until it dies. But it would be a bad car to fix up, you'll never see your money out of it.

My suggestions. Ask for the keys. Take the car out alone and beat the living hell out of it for 1/2 hour. If nothing breaks, self-destructs, smokes, boils over, leaks, clatters or spits, well then maybe it's okay.

lancerfixer · August 2002

"Take the car out alone and beat the living hell out of it for 1/2 hour. "

Remind me never to sell you a car...

c43amg7 · August 2002

Depends on what you want it for -- as Shifty says, if it runs well despite the mileage, no leakage or smoke, then it may be worth a flier for $1,500. If she has the records (timely changes of all fluids) and you have a good discussion with the mechanic caring for it, you may well be OK for up to another 100,000 miles. Could be an OK spare or car for rainy days to avoid having to clean up the new Caddy [assume you have it and are still happy].

Fixing the sunroof can be expensive (high hundreds); the A/C was a potential weak point (fully test -- can be low thousands, but maybe you can live without it); the front suspension needs renewal over time (about a thousand -- hopefully done); transmission will eventually wear out (couple of thousand); valve renewal at 150,000 or so (several thousand -- hopefully done or still not using oil so as to require it); and the timing chain/guide rails/tensioner renewal every 100,000 is an essential ($600 or so to save the engine). Replacing the radio head unit is a couple hundred.

Unless the $1,500 is inconsequential to you and you're happy walking away if it doesn't work, spend $100 or so for a thorough inspection by an independent fully familiar with these cars.

jrosasmc · August 2002

Something just occurred to me. I know this is definitely not a luxury car by any means, but the VW Fox was the cheapest German car sold here for quite a number of years (although it was built in Brazil). Sold for about $8k new back in '87, I think. That means Foxes will be as cheap to maintain and as reliable as any Toyota or Honda, since they're so simple, right?

magnetophone · August 2002

I think Foxes were generally reliable. I still see them around. They were basically Polo sedans.

Mr_Shiftright · August 2002

"beat the hell" = "drive it hard" (not abuse it).

Yes, don't sell me a car unless it's a good one, that's true!

merckx · August 2002

Shifty and brentwoodvolvo,could you help on this one? My sister wants to trade in a 1992 300SE,135,000 miles. It has very good paint(metallic black)and good interior-otherwise in pretty good(average) shape. What can she expect as a wholesale,trade in price? Also,what might it retail for?

Thanks a lot in advance.

Mr_Shiftright · August 2002

Try using the Edmunds "True Market Value" appraisal! It's accessible by clicking the "Used" button at the top of this page, just below the word "HALL".

It's kind of hard to appraise a car without seeing it, as your idea of "average" might be different than mine or Bill's. Generally, Benzes have to be pretty sharp to get a good price, otherwise their prices fall off sharply, since reconditioning can be expensive. Also, geographical location might be a factor. A black car in say Phoenix is a dead duck.

merckx · August 2002

I did go there first-it came up with $9,200 for my area. This seemed a little high(I did pick the middle range of conditions)so I thought I would try you. You seem usually to give a low value to cars in general,so I thought you might be more "real world".

im_brentwood · August 2002

Yup..

Theyre on the $$ here. If it's clean and everything works, $9K as a trade.

If nothing else, that's the number I'd pay for the car.

OTOH, it'd do $11-12K on eBay

Bill

Mr_Shiftright · August 2002

Well I might hit Benzes a bit low because there are so many of them where I live and one can pick and choose the very best. But the TMV sounds just about right to me, too but I'd sure invest anything you can spare into cosmetic improvements before you sell.

jrosasmc · August 2002

I have just returned from test-driving my first BMW 528e this afternoon. This one was an '87, automatic, 124k miles, appeared to be in great condition. The dealer was asking $2500 for it. Here are my impressions of this much-maligned Bimmer:

Painfully slow acceleration. I felt as if I could measure the 0-60 mph time with an oven timer. Whenever I floored the gas, all I got was moaning and whining from the big I-6 and very little forward movement. Low-speed acceleration from a stop was great thanks to all that 170 ft.-lbs. of torque, but top-end power was a joke. Seriously. I was even unable to make the 528e smoke its rear tires. Even I couldn't do that on a Mercedes 240D I tested once. The steering was fine at highway speeds (I had the car for an hour), but it was mercifully heavy at low speeds and when attempting parking maneuvers. This car was indeed a chore to drive, just like the many large American land yachts I've driven as well.

German a/c is a joke as well. I started the car up and immediately set the air to full blast. Man, that unit took like half an hour to cool the entire interior! It must be the same unit Mercedes used back then. There was something fishy going on with the electrics as well. The little trip computer to the right of the instrument panel was all scrambled up and was very illegible. I also turned on the radio, and all I got was "CODE" on the screen. But the power antenna worked, as did all the windows, both power seats, locks, and the sunroof. This BMW seemed like a good car, but it needed some work done to it in order to make it a reliable daily driver.

In the end, I took a walk on this one. I vowed that was the first, and last 528e I would drive in my life. To be frank and fair, that particular model was a disgrace to the BMW name in the 1980's. It may have rode and handled well, but the acceleration left something to be desired. I mean, 121 hp from a 2.7-liter engine? Even my '93 Volvo 850 has much better acceleration than any 528e (and that one has a smaller 5-cylinder engine). Any impressions or comments?

jaserb · August 2002

It probably has a security code you have to set every time the battery is disconnected. You don't know the code, you can't turn on the radio.

-Jason

Mr_Shiftright · August 2002

Well a 528e would be fine as a cheap commuter car. It's like my 300D, slow and steady. As for the German a/c, it's all bad in the 80s, so I just plan to fix it once a year. I keep it charged up to the maximum, that helps, and use a sun screen on the windshield when I can. I also put in a deeper tint windshield when mine got busted. The problem is not so much the a/c itself, but the blower fan efficiency and the lack of tint on the stock windows.

ghulet · August 2002

...though I once test drove an '86 325e five-speed (same engine, a bit less weight) and was quite unimpressed with the car in general. Not much power, not much room, not particularly luxurious (no more than the Saab 900s I've had), handled OK but rode like a truck. Also, pre-traction control BMWs are not a good car to have in Chicago winters. Oh, and they're expensive to fix. I don't think an '80s BMW of any type would be a very good commuter car, except maybe a 533/535i as a seasonal 'toy'.

Mr_Shiftright · August 2002

The 635 CSi or the M6 are fun and have PLENTY of power, and a later 80s 325is coupe is a nice car to drive. The big sedans are....well....sedans.

jrosasmc · August 2002

Or what about the later 525i (1991-95) with the twin-cam six from the 3-Series? My best friend's mom used to have a '92; a huge quantum leap over her previous BMW, an '85 528e. Well, any '90s Bimmer is worlds apart from the 528e.

ghulet · August 2002

...1989-90 (168hp) 525i is probably a perfectly decent daily driver, and I'm pretty sure they're available for $4500-6500. The parts and repairs are still pricey, though.

Mr_Shiftright · August 2002

Exactly....seems to me that if you are going to pour buckets of Benjamins into an older BMW, you should get the most kick for your buck. I think they made a 530i in European trim that was pretty hot, but the US-market BMW cars of that era weren't all that exciting. Only now are BMWs getting really really fast again here in America.

jrosasmc · August 2002

Have you ever owned an old BMW in your lifetime, like a 2002 or 325e?

Mr_Shiftright · August 2002

I've owned both those, yes, and quite a few BMW motorcycles. I like the bikes a lot but the cars (at least those older ones) were not among my favorites by any means. Basically, I think 70s and 80s BMWs are quite troublesome for what you get. The newer ones would be more tempting to me. I think the modern 5 series would be a nice car to have.

As far as the older BMWs, the only one that still tempts me would be the M6 coupes.

jrosasmc · August 2002

Reading the "Illustrated Guide to Mercedes-Benz" book at a bookstore, they mentioned the much-ballyhooed million-mile Mercedes, the '68 220D. However, they said it was still second to a 1957 180D that reportedly went 1.2 million. What was the 180D like as a car, anyway? Was it a slow and crude one by today's standards?

magnetophone · August 2002

You've used the word Ballyhooed TWICE in recent memory!

Mr_Shiftright · August 2002

I wonder where that word comes from.

The older Benz diesel were hardly luxury cars. I think they were built mostly for hard use in commercial service and so they feel utilitarian by modern standards. I doubt the average old diesel would go one million miles either, but really you can drive anything for a million miles if you are willing to put the money into it.

By my standards, the first really comfortable modern Benz diesel was the SD turbo diesel. Prior to that, those engines are rough and ready.

jrosasmc · August 2002

Oh, you mean the first 300SD from 1981, right?

Mr_Shiftright · August 2002

Yeah...I'm not sure the first model year.

But these cars are pretty civilized, and go fast enough to be safe on modern roads. Older Benz diesels are very marginal in both speed and comfort.

magnetophone · August 2002

There was a time when nearly all Mercedes sold here were diesels. So they have a possible advantage if diesel comes back. Which I think it will in some respect. I see plenty of Golf and Jetta TDI's here...and that engine is a pure gem. The funny part is that it's a 7-year old design. VW has tweaked that 90hp engine into a 150hp engine with the same fuel efficiency and now over 210lb-ft of torque.

So, essentially, if we had refined diesel, you just turned a Golf going 0-60 in 10.6 seconds with a TDI90 into a Golf going 0-60 in 8.5 seconds. KICK A!

The Mercedes E270CDI will be resurfacing in America in a few years. That is a 175hp lump that does 60 in about 9 seconds, which is really not that bad.

jrosasmc · August 2002

I hope that E270 will be based on the new E-Class coming here this fall.

ghulet · August 2002

...was built on the 116-style platform, first sold in the U.S. in Spring, 1978. The 300SD actually was the best-selling diesel car in the states in 1979 (sold 13,194 units versus the second place 240D, which sold 11,067). Pretty impressive numbers for a car that cost $26k back then.

jrosasmc · August 2002

I wonder how many '70s Mercedes diesels are still running today.

USED European Luxury Cars (pre 1990)

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