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Honda Odyssey Engine Ping, Detonation, Preingition issues
There are a few of us on this board that are having this engine ping, detonation, preignition issue/ noise from our vans. All models! The problem is that Honda can't fix it or does not know how to fix it so they are doing nothing. Read below for how catastrophic this issue is. I need to know who else is having this issue.
It's definitely not " normal ". My van (07 Touring) does it on initial acceleration, just before and after the vans shift points at 50km/h(30mph) and 70km/h(45mph) under light acceleration, and up hills especially when the engine is hot.
The knock sensor is supposed to prevent this from happening.
The problem is real! Honda Canada and my dealer said, after working on it for 3 weeks, that it is indeed a pre-ignition/ detonation noise. They don't no why it's doing it, and they don't know how to fix it!!!!
The problem is defined by Wikipedia in 2 ways but the result are the same :
Knocking (also called pinging)-
Colloquially detonation—in internal combustion engines occurs when air/fuel mixture in the cylinder has been ignited by the spark plug and the smooth burning is interrupted by the unburned mixture in the combustion chamber exploding before the flame front can reach it. The engineered combusting process ceases, because of the explosion, before the optimum moment for the four-stroke cycle. The resulting shockwave reverberates in the combustion chamber, creating a characteristic metallic "pinging" sound, and pressures increase catastrophically. It can range from hardly noticeable to complete engine destruction.
Detonation or pre-ignition-
The fuel/air mixture is normally ignited slightly before the point of maximum compression to allow a small time for the flame-front of the burning fuel to expand throughout the mixture so that maximum pressure occurs at the optimum point. The flame-front moves at roughly 33.5 m/second (110 feet/second) during normal combustion[citation needed]. It is only when the remaining unburned mixture is heated and pressurized by the advancing flame front for a certain length of time that the detonation occurs. It is caused by an instantaneous ignition of the remaining fuel/air mixture in the form of an explosion. The cylinder pressure rises dramatically beyond its design limits and if allowed to persist detonation will damage or destroy engine parts.
Consequences of Knocking or Pre-ignition
Engine knocking has disastrous consequences for the engine, since it leads to the catastrophical wear of the combustion chamber walls, through particle wear for moderate knocking, to welding for serious knocking. This is due to the contact between those walls and high temperature gases resulting from the unwanted explosion. The processes also lead to a 'knocking' noise for the engine, that give its name to the phenomenon.
A big problem us owners are having is finding enough of us to recognize our vans have this problem and to make Honda do something about it - I think they should buy the vans back and do the research on them that is required to fix all of them.
It's definitely not " normal ". My van (07 Touring) does it on initial acceleration, just before and after the vans shift points at 50km/h(30mph) and 70km/h(45mph) under light acceleration, and up hills especially when the engine is hot.
The knock sensor is supposed to prevent this from happening.
The problem is real! Honda Canada and my dealer said, after working on it for 3 weeks, that it is indeed a pre-ignition/ detonation noise. They don't no why it's doing it, and they don't know how to fix it!!!!
The problem is defined by Wikipedia in 2 ways but the result are the same :
Knocking (also called pinging)-
Colloquially detonation—in internal combustion engines occurs when air/fuel mixture in the cylinder has been ignited by the spark plug and the smooth burning is interrupted by the unburned mixture in the combustion chamber exploding before the flame front can reach it. The engineered combusting process ceases, because of the explosion, before the optimum moment for the four-stroke cycle. The resulting shockwave reverberates in the combustion chamber, creating a characteristic metallic "pinging" sound, and pressures increase catastrophically. It can range from hardly noticeable to complete engine destruction.
Detonation or pre-ignition-
The fuel/air mixture is normally ignited slightly before the point of maximum compression to allow a small time for the flame-front of the burning fuel to expand throughout the mixture so that maximum pressure occurs at the optimum point. The flame-front moves at roughly 33.5 m/second (110 feet/second) during normal combustion[citation needed]. It is only when the remaining unburned mixture is heated and pressurized by the advancing flame front for a certain length of time that the detonation occurs. It is caused by an instantaneous ignition of the remaining fuel/air mixture in the form of an explosion. The cylinder pressure rises dramatically beyond its design limits and if allowed to persist detonation will damage or destroy engine parts.
Consequences of Knocking or Pre-ignition
Engine knocking has disastrous consequences for the engine, since it leads to the catastrophical wear of the combustion chamber walls, through particle wear for moderate knocking, to welding for serious knocking. This is due to the contact between those walls and high temperature gases resulting from the unwanted explosion. The processes also lead to a 'knocking' noise for the engine, that give its name to the phenomenon.
A big problem us owners are having is finding enough of us to recognize our vans have this problem and to make Honda do something about it - I think they should buy the vans back and do the research on them that is required to fix all of them.
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I've mentioned it to the dealer on several visits for other issues/oil changes. Last time, a mechanic tried several different tweaks (though I don't know exactly what) and it didn't really help. But yesterday, I took it in just to have the knock looked at again since we're nearing the end of the first year. I was basically dismissed. First they couldn't even hear it until I took the mechanic for a ride. They told me that it was the knock sensor "doing its job" (CREATING knock, I wonder?!). It was normal. They would call the Techline to see if they had any insight and get back to me, but there was probably nothing to be done with it.
I'm also interested to read up a little on knock issues because I did try a tank of premium gas per the recommendation of the mechanic last time and it sounded better for about half the tank. I thought that meant it didn't fix it (maybe wasn't a knock/octane issue) but now I'm seeing that this is common when the tank gets low.
Anyway, please keep posting about your progress with Honda. I don't intend to let this rest at "normal" but I also don't relish the idea of pushing this and becoming the crazy lady that keeps coming back for the "sound" in her van.
I will post in the new forum area specific to this problem and will update if whatever they do helps (with more detail on what it is they're doing).
Oh, and on replacing the knock sensor, they said that the knock sensor was doing its job (and might actually be the reason for this "normal" sound - ha!). They did mention some indicator that would be tripped if there was a problem with the knock sensor and that indicator is showing that the sensor is fine. So they ruled that out as a solution.
Incidentally, the bulletin was the one silverex referenced (did that work for you silverex?). Bummer. I would definitely give it a try but no luck here!
1. Slight engine knocking at low speed (35-40 miles) up hill.
2. Hears it more clearly from from passenger window.
3. Premium gas can reduce the knocking sound level but can never eliminate the knocking completely.
Brought to dealer to get the ping, exhaust drone, and couple other issues fixed. Got car back with all problems fixed! Repair documents recommended that the TSB07-028 parts get ordered to rectify the pinging noise. Service adviser stated that they will call when the parts come in. Apparently they did something to the van to fix the problem while they had it, because I have not heard the ping/knock/chirp since the repairs a few months ago.
When the problem first started, I suspected that the problem may have been the belt (it's on the right side of the vehicle, right?). There is actually a stitch line in the belt where the ends are joined. That section was looking ragged and worn despite the 17K miles on the vehicle. When I got the vehicle back from dealer, it appeared to have a brand new belt even though the repair documents said nothing about replacing the belt. A little odd if the dealer did that, but its not making the noise now!
And they have not called me about the parts coming in on TSB07-028, but I don't think I need them, since it sounds fine.
My ping was fixed and is still fixed after several months. Still don't know what they did to fix it as I am still waiting for them to call about getting the TSB07-028 part. I'm just glad it was not truly pinging. Really think it was the serpentine belt.
I have not brought it in to have it checked out yet, but after reading the comments on this thread I am not very encouraged. Can you guys can provide an update on the status of your Odysseys? We bought this car hoping to keep it for many years. However, there's no way I'm keeping this car more than the three year warranty period if this problem can't be fixed. In fact, I'll be tempted to dump it after one year (thanks to its high resale values).
Guess I'm the "average housewife" who did notice this as it has bugged me from the beginning and my husband thought I was nuts (though now he doesn't). Anyway, I don't know if anyone is getting anywhere with this, but I'm looking into the lemon law after 4 tries by the dealership with no end in sight. I think I'll take it back one more time and then start the process. Curious to know if anyone is having any other luck.
Kind of the reverse for us - I noticed it first, but my wife definitely hears it now too. We're not ones to complain about strange noises either, but engine knock is of course not wise to disregard.
I saw only one post where the owner had the issue resolved. If I'm not mistaken, I think they replaced the "serpentine" belt on that Odyssey. What was the service bulletin fix that you tried?
It really does sound like a timing issue to me. I used to time my cars just shy of knocking for maximum punch and would more often than not just do it by ear. A slight change in timing can cause considerable knocking though. Would also like to hear from others about this issue, so I can steer the Service dept in the right direction. Thanks!
I'm the person that started this forum thread and I'm regretfully pleased that all of you are in this situation as well, as I glad I'm not alone in this! My van has been back to the dealer many time since but still no fix and it doesn't matter which grade or type of fuel I use(92 octane only makes it ping less). To this day from my first post I have been fighting to have Honda take the van back and give me a new one as mine is only a lease. I felt in the beginning that I was doing Honda a favour as the vehicle will eventually go back to them. Now I really don't care. I do all my services every 4,000 miles using only Honda parts and keep all my receipts so in the end when this lemon goes back to them, I can say that I did everything right to prevent any user/operator damage and it is their fault!!! Unfortunately I don't have any good news for those of you who own your vans
Thanks again for joining this thread.
Ping3
I don't think we will keep our EX for more than 2 years and will never buy a Honda again. With our new 2008 EX, ping is just one of several issues. We have never owned a car with such POOR initial build quality. These vans are built in Alabama and it SHOWS! Steering column knock, wheel alignment, rattles & squeaks galore, bad outdoor temperature sensor, horribly uncomfortable seats - all with only 2,800 miles on it! We will sell while still under warranty & let someone else deal with the burnt valves.
We have a 99 Ford windstar with 140K miles now and had to do an update to the engine software for the ping that it had.
Honda says our noise is the torque converter making noise..... obviously it converts tourqe into engine pings and transmission jerks!
I will keep you all informed of our lemon law case. If we make it there. This is our first and last Honda van.
so i trade it in for a brand new 2008 Odyssey.
I too have the ping problem in the way it was described above. acc up a hill causes ping, less ping with ultra 92 octane but the car is rated for the cheap gas (well relatively cheap at todays gas prices).
I also noticed some pretty crappy gear changes. there is always a sudden drop in power while gears are changing and decisions to change gears are bad ones.
My best guess is that compromises were made in the re-engineered transmission to lower the failure rate found in 1999 - 2004 models. lower the stress on the tranny by widening the shift time and dropping power on shifts - making it gentler on the clutch(es)? This is just a guess ofcourse but would help explain the crappy shifting but not the ping problem.
Getting bad fuel economy as well. I did a same trip comparison with a route i took with my 2002 odyssey and found it to be 10 - 15% worse fuel economy on mostly highway. Shooting from the hip it seems that city driving is an even greater discrepancy. EPA ratings are waaaaaaay off.
I owned a 1984 chrysler voyager (the first minivan) and as underpowered as it was (74hp and pulling a trailer) the thing ran and shifted a lot smoother at 10 years old than this brand new Honda does new. (although not nearly as pretty)
I bought a 2008 Accord at the same time (yes i got sick of old cars breaking down and bit the bullet) and the thing is absolutely perfect. So this is definitely not a "Honda is Crap" session but more of a "Honda is having some trouble with their Odysseys - lets see if we can get them to fix it"
you are not in West Chester are you? :confuse: :confuse:
There are four major causes of pinging. The first three are related to excessive heat.
The first is severe engine overheating. If the engine is running too hot for any reason, the temperature in the cylinders can simply be too high. In that case, some of the mixture can ignite before the spark plug fires just from the intense heat.
The second major cause of pinging is carbon buildup inside the cylinders and on the pistons. When too much carbon collects, it can reduce the size of the cylinders (increasing the compression and temperature of the cylinder contents) and retain excessive heat itself.
The third cause of pinging is a malfunctioning exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) system. The EGR is supposed to send non-combustible exhaust gas into the cylinders to lower the temperature of the mixture.
How does 800-degree exhaust gas LOWER the temperature in the cylinders? Because it doesn't burn, and it crowds out some of the oxygen that would have burned and made an even hotter flame. And if that EGR is not working properly, the cylinder temperature can be too hot and the engine can ping.
And finally, incorrect ignition timing can cause pinging. The ignition timing determines when the spark plugs fire. And if they're set to fire too early, the stuff will begin to burn too early.
The use of higher-octane gas often makes the pinging stop because it has a higher ignition point. By requiring a higher temperature to make the gasoline burn, you reduce the likelihood of it "pre-igniting" somewhere else in the cylinder.
But premium gas doesn't address the underlying problem. So start by checking the EGR system, the cooling system and the ignition timing. And if none of those things fix it, then you can consider using a higher-octane fuel. " - Jims Performance Automotive.
I actually called our service guy 3 times and left messages 3 different times, and... he never called me back. I then left an email with the service mgr. and he ignored me too.
I finally gor the mgr on the phone, and I am waiting to find a time to get it back in.
What ever happened with you? Have they recognized your problem? Did they offer any solution?
We are so dissappointed!! we were sure the honda was the way to go. We really looked around too.......
I can tell you we have opened a Lemon Law case against this van. We just took it to Roberts Honda in Downingtown just for another pair of eyes on the problem. I am so jaded by this experience with Honda. We owned a Windstar before this van that had the transmission go with 65k miles on it. We new we didn't want to purchase an American Minivan because of quality issues. My wife has always liked the Odessey and it had a good reputation. I think we will try Toyota after this......
One more thougth. We live in a neighborhood that a lot of people have Odessey's and we are now listening to them ping as they come around the corner. I am interested in hearing if they have had the same run around from Honda. Good Luck and I will keep you posted as to how we make out with the Lemon Law.
They replaced the knock-sensor with an updated version. Said by the service rep to be a known problem with some but not all the newer minivans. Also said that many people may not notice the knock sound because they may not be as "technical". Said it was a good idea to bring it in because the probem may eventually lead to other damage/failure down the road.
I am right now running on 87 octane (a fresh full tank from what was almost empty) and have noticed zero ping. I gave it hell last night by gassing hard - immediately taking off the gas and then gassing hard again. It also appears that acceration is more smooth/constant going up in the rpms. As far as fuel economy is concerned I do not have an answer for you yet but I am optomistic that it will imporve.
The dealership I went to is Roadsport Honda in Scarborough Ontario. I was preparing for a battle and was greeted with a good service rep who was considerably more informed and open than what most would expect.
here is a summary of the service report (in my invoice)
a cust reports pre-ignition noticed. Happens @ lowe rpm's on acceleration. noticed even when brand new. tried higher octane gas - improved slightly but still notices pre-ignition on hard accel from idle.
Cause: Knock sensor internal fault
121188 knock sensor (KS)- replace
part#: 30530-P8F-A01
also
3870 knock sensor internal fault perform hds scan test = no codes.
perform bulletin II-4-08. Replace Knock sensr.
the dealership/honda covered the rental and charged nothing for the service. (warranty) good guys - must have helped that the dealership owner was walikng the floor that morning :shades:
I bet you that if they put the van on a dyno the techs would be better able to hear and troubleshoot the pre-ignition while the engine is under load.
It would be great if a technician would use a probe to see what signal the knock sensor is generating (if any) when a pre-ignition event occurs.
Just a thought - good luck.
I'm very glad that there is another person out there in GTA that experienced this problem. I bought my 08 Odyssey from Centre Honda here in Toronto in mid May. My pinging problem is exactly as you have described for yours. I've only started to notice mine at about 1000 km. Right now, it's at 4900 km, and it still pings. I've taken my Ody to the dealership three weeks ago and they admitted the problem, hooked my car to a dyno but could not get any error readings from the computer. They say are still waiting for instructions from Honda Techline as to how deal with it.
May I ask you if you're sure that the replacement of the Knock Sensor on your Ody has really solved the problem?
Thanks so very much.
Xinst
The computer not logging any errors appears to be a symptom similar to mine. (i would assume that repeated pre-ignition events should be picked-up by the ecu and logged if all was working properly)
The tech should trust his senses more than the computer and enquire why the computer does not hear what he hears on the dyno. (if it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck and looks like a duck....)
I am sorry to say that I did not attain a copy of the " Bulletin II-4-08 " to see exactly what the bulletin pertains to. Maybe someone with connections will be able to post the content of that up here.
I will let you and everyone else know if there is any recurrence as well as my fuel milage - before the fix I had a hard time making 500KM on a tank with almost all highway.
Thanks for your prompt response. I eagerly look forward to your reading updates and extend my wishes to your having gotten rid of the ping problem once and for all.
Many thanks.
Sorry to here that your car's pinging did not disappear. I was very much hoping to hear a success story.