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Shifty Needs Your Help in Buying a Car
Mr_Shiftright
Member Posts: 64,481
in General
Welcome to:
Shiftright’s Choice--a stirring drama of money, lust and pathetic waffling:
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I need some advice here on the best way to go to acquire a MINI:
Choice #1:
Friend has a 2003 Cooper S (supercharged model), mint, 15,000 miles, black on black, well-equipped. Price is $17,000
Pros: It’s the S model, which is a lot faster than the base model Cooper. Miles are really low, condition is perfect, history known since new (one owner), price is about $7,000 less than a comparably equipped new S model, which is now a turbo, not a SC car. About the max I really want to spend on a car. No increase in car payments.
Cons: MINI resale values are damn high. It’s a lot for a 2003 with no warranty left. Black on black wouldn’t be my first choice in this car.
Choice #2:
Another friend has a 2005 Cooper S on his lot, massively equipped with everything, including NAV, 32,500 miles, good colors (blue/white), very small balance of warranty, for $22,000.
Pros: It’s an S, has some warranty, very well equipped, good colors
Cons: I could buy a brand new 2007 base model for the same price; miles are 2X the 2003 car, still more than I’d like to spend but I could stretch for it. Increases car payments $100 a month.
Choice #3:
I can buy a new BASE Mini in the colors I really like and well but not lavishly equipped for $21,000.
Pros: Get the colors and equipment I really want. Full warranty.
Cons: Not much faster than my Scion xA, and $5,000 more than the 2003 black one. Increases car payments about $100 a month
Not a Choice: A brand new Cooper S with equipment, tax and license is too much money for me.
As the FLY says in the end of the movie: Help ME! Help ME!
NOTE-- any of the used cars could get an extended warranty for about $1,000 on drivetrain and some other items (not everything).
Shiftright’s Choice--a stirring drama of money, lust and pathetic waffling:
------------------------------------------------
I need some advice here on the best way to go to acquire a MINI:
Choice #1:
Friend has a 2003 Cooper S (supercharged model), mint, 15,000 miles, black on black, well-equipped. Price is $17,000
Pros: It’s the S model, which is a lot faster than the base model Cooper. Miles are really low, condition is perfect, history known since new (one owner), price is about $7,000 less than a comparably equipped new S model, which is now a turbo, not a SC car. About the max I really want to spend on a car. No increase in car payments.
Cons: MINI resale values are damn high. It’s a lot for a 2003 with no warranty left. Black on black wouldn’t be my first choice in this car.
Choice #2:
Another friend has a 2005 Cooper S on his lot, massively equipped with everything, including NAV, 32,500 miles, good colors (blue/white), very small balance of warranty, for $22,000.
Pros: It’s an S, has some warranty, very well equipped, good colors
Cons: I could buy a brand new 2007 base model for the same price; miles are 2X the 2003 car, still more than I’d like to spend but I could stretch for it. Increases car payments $100 a month.
Choice #3:
I can buy a new BASE Mini in the colors I really like and well but not lavishly equipped for $21,000.
Pros: Get the colors and equipment I really want. Full warranty.
Cons: Not much faster than my Scion xA, and $5,000 more than the 2003 black one. Increases car payments about $100 a month
Not a Choice: A brand new Cooper S with equipment, tax and license is too much money for me.
As the FLY says in the end of the movie: Help ME! Help ME!
NOTE-- any of the used cars could get an extended warranty for about $1,000 on drivetrain and some other items (not everything).
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Comments
Nice of you to come to us with your choice.
For what little it may be worth, I vote for option 3.
The reasons I think 3 may be the best choice are as follows (and I know you know all of these reason already): First, you get a full factory warranty.That means that for the next 4 years you don't have to worry about anything serious going wrong. If anything does go wrong, it'll be fixed without cost to you. That's a big deal in my book. Second, even though all of us love old cars, the blunt fact is that some new cars are better, and this is probably true for a new Mini. Most of the bugs have been resolved, and everything is a little bit better. And who really needs the power of an S? Oh, sure, it might be fun, but for those who know how to drive it a standard model with a manual shift will be almost as fun. And you can pick your own color. I look forward to your review of whatever you choose...
Best, Ben
I would say either choice 1 or choice 3. Drive them both back to back and see which one you like better.
My 2004 MINI Cooper S that I sold is now out of warranty by miles and has still not had any problems. I talked to the person that bought it a couple of weeks ago and they just had the first out of warranty service done at the dealer for 500 dollars. Probably paid a little too much for the service but you do get a loaner car and a hand wash/vacuum with every service.
Also, remember, Shifty, when a while back we discussed the fact that you don't need tremendous power to have fun? I believe that was the gist of your comments concerning the fun that could be had with the relatively low powered (especially by today's standards) MGA and B. I agreed with you, which is why I don't think you need the forced induction to enjoy the Mini. If it were free you'd take it, of course, but given the extra cost, it's not a big deal to do without it.
As an additional comment, I'll add that when the resale value is as strong as the Mini's, it pays to buy new. Buying used is great when depreciation is average or greater than average, but the Mini's resale values have been remarkable.
Now I understand the ride quality of the new Mini has been improved, and there is less difference in ride harshness between the regular and "S" models than in the previous generation Mini. Notwithstanding this, and factoring in the value proposition, I'd still go for a nicely optioned regular Mini.
Question for you, since I've never driven a Scion: is the Mini considerably more satisfying to drive than your Xa?
Price is about wholesale actually, scary as that may be... suckers are doing in the strong 16s still with those miles.
Door #2, with the miles, isn't nearly as good of a deal, about average retail.. $18k wholesale car. Nav adds little to resale.
Door #3 is a no-go, you said from the outset that it isn't what you want.
And another thing to consider is that I am sure you can retrofit factory nav to the Mini if that's what you really want.... I have yet to see a BMW where this can't be done with relative ease.
It's interesting that nobody much went for #2, the "newer" used MINI...it's almost like you're saying "well, used is used, so go for the low miles and lower price as a heavy decider".
Okay, how 'bout this then? A compromise.
Buy the black one and paint the roof light gray or silver in the future to put some lightness on the car?
I have NOT driven a 2007 base model yet. I think I need to do that. As someone did point out, the original base MINI is fairly anemic, with about 110HP. My xA has 108HP and it's fine but I'm workin' the gearshift a lot. I wouldn't mind some torque here.
Harsh ride isn't really an issue and great handling would be very helpful on the infamous Hwy 17 into Santa Cruz CA. Being so used to MGs and Porsches, which are hard riding, I'm okay with badda-bang, badda-boom.
Is this a replacement for the xA, or a 'fun' car?
Remember these new MINIS are expensive cars to buy new...you can easily blow $30K out the door, no problem. I don't want to do that.
I try to take my own advice, which is "throw a big down on a car loan because that way you are never bottoms up if you ditch it---also smaller payments".
Throwing a big down on a buy isn't dumb like throwing a big down on a lease.
Seriously, I don't race around like a nut but there are many times during the day I need to "make a move" and it's very hard with the xA. I have to plan my shot, keep the car on the cam, etc, to pull it off.
I figured with the extra power of the SC, I can pretty much just mash the gas when i need to and not worry.
But I have no real "need" for a Cooper S--it is a pretty fast car however and a lot of fun. I've driven them.
I guess my dilemma is this (and it could be wrong-thinking): "Why spend 1/3rd more money for 1/2 the horses?"
Something about that bugs me...I dunno....it's like buying the 6 cylinder Mustang convertible with an automatic.
Maybe I want to be "smug". Did anyone see South Park last night? They sent up Prius owners forever. It was soooo funny.
Here's a cute little model with a white top. I think it's too much like a cop car!
Yes, the Clubman will probably be expensive to buy, but if it holds its value as well as the regular Minis, it may not be expensive to own.
I had occasion to drive a '07 VW Rabbit several months ago, and I was very impressed, but the Rabbit probably wouldn't satisfy your image needs. I understand that the '08 will have 170 hp vs. 150 for the '07.
I won't cite the fact that a family member has a '02 Jetta with 52,000 miles that has an excellent reliability record as an argument for buying a VW because an example of one is statistically insignificant. However, I've read that VW management has recognized the quality problems, and is committed to improving reliability and dealer service. I believe that future reliability surveys will show VW moving up in the rankings. Secondly, "average" and even "below average" is much better than it was in the '90s. My conclusion is that if I liked a VW and a Toyota equally, I'd buy the Toyota every time. However, whereas I wouldn't have considered a VW until recently, because of reliability concerns, I would today if I really liked the car. My main concern regarding the Rabbit and Jetta is mediocre fuel economy compared with Toyota and Honda. Reliability has now become my second concern. It remains a concern, but is no longer a deal breaker for me. I'd now consider a new Rabbit because I like its design and driving dynamics. The latter surprised me. I'd value your impressions, if you should test drive one.
I should add that I'd also consider a Mini, but the fact that, for practical purposes, its essentially a two seater, or a 2+2 at best, is a drawback for me. The Clubman may resolve that issue.
IIRC 6th to 3rd at about 55 mph puts you at full boost and nearly at peak horse power instantly with about a 1,000 rpms to go before red line. There aren't many cars you can't blow away on the highway with that trick.
The MINI Cooper S, with an open diff, also won SCC's burn out contest a few years back. They left close to a 150 feet of rubber with the Cooper S.
I could chirp tires in first, second and even third gear. To do the third gear chirp I had to let the engine rev up to within 50 rpms of the fuel cut off or it wouldn't work.
I wouldn't recommend doing any of that too much though if you care about your clutch and/or tire life.
So you have experience with driving the S and the base model? I'm told there is really no comparison whatsoever in driving experience. It's like two different cars they say. Or is that an exaggeration? I did drive a base MINI with CVT and paddle shifters, a 2007 and it was....okay...it felt like a dodge dart.
RE: VW---it's not just the reliability stats that scared me, but listening to people's stories of WHAT happened to their cars and how OFTEN. You know, I'll give any car some slack but these repetitive stories of windows falling into doors, and slimey goo leaking out of door panels (???) and having to worship Our Lady of the Perpetual Engine Light every morning---that really gets my attention.
In terms of the future, Toyota's and Honda's inroads in Europe should add urgency to VW's reliability drive, as it did with our domestic manufacturers. I'm sure it's important for VW to remain #1 in sales in Europe, and it's reasonable to assume that, like us, Europeans assign a high value to reliability.
I'm sure that one day I'll be on the side of the road in the MINI in a rainstorm watching Scion xAs just breezing past with their annoying level of perfection, but that's okay...you can't play it safe all your life...you live safe, you'll die safe, and so what?
Drive the New New base cooper back to back with the New Cooper S and your decision will be made.
Ditch the runflats with either one of them though. They really ruin the ride and the 17 inch run flat wheel and tire combo that come with he sport package weigh 52 LBS EACH. That is insane for a 2,600 lbs or so car to have over 200 lbs of its weight tied up in wheels and tires.
I read somewhere that 3 out of 10 new car buyers don't even drive the cars!!!
Now that's one thing I could never do, because I need to make sure that the car is going to fit me! And you can't always go by published dimensions. I've found some cars to have less published legroom, but actually end up being roomier, than some cars with greater published legroom!
I remember years ago, the mother of one of my coworkers had a 1994 Dodge Intrepid. It only had about 35,000 miles on it, and there was nothing wrong with it. But she was going away that weekend to some golf tournament, and wanted a new car to show off to her friends, so at the spur of the moment, she bought a new 1999 Intrepid...and immediately hated it! I think the biggest problem was that the '94 was a base model, but had a lot of options, whereas the '99 was a bare bones base model. Plus, while the '99 had a stronger engine, it was DOHC versus pushrod, and you had to stomp it to get that power. A lot of old people just aren't used to that...they associate power with just barely tapping the pedal and it takes off. The concept of flooring the thing is alien to them. :P
Bad thing about buying used is I have no idea what the previous owner did in the past 15,000 miles.
But on the other hand, 15K is not a lot of miles so maybe there was no chance to really screw the car up.
I always worry about sludge for instance, caused by cars being driven for short hops at slower speeds.
It also seems weird to put a 15K miles car through an entire full-blown diagnostic and inspection.
It took me a little while, once I got my Intrepid, to realize that it was okay to floor it from a dead stop. It's just that in the past, with just about every car I've ever had, doing that would either make the car stall out or spin out...either way, you weren't going anywhere!
Now.. Baron von Stockbroker OTOH...
Bill <--Fan of Nigel's for YEARS
Some of that is break-in, and some of it is the ECU adapting to your driving style. If you reset the computer and let your friend drive your xA for a month, your car would be nice and loafy when you got it back.
At what mileage does the ECU usually stop adapting, and finally get set in its ways? For instance, at 135,000 miles, the ECU in my Intrepid wouldn't still be "learning" anything, would it?
Not from you, unless you decide to start driving differently. From a fresh reset, I think it's something like a few weeks for the computer to fully "adapt" to you, mostly by picking out which fuel maps to use in which conditions.
Brentwood said a lot of the same. This is not surprising. While I never own as fun cars as he does I generally agree with his opinions.
But I have a suggestion of my own- how about a nice, pre-owned 2004 or 2005 Volvo S60 2.4? Large compact, but small enough so that it feels sporty. Reasonably priced, as well. I know, I'm advocating Volvo since I drive one, but I think an S60 would be your type.
Friend of mine out in Cali is selling a very nice 89 M3 with the Turner 2.5 conversion... he wants realistic money too... why not buy that?
The big problem with them was poor maintinence, few people know how to properly service the valves and people run 10W30 oil in them which is a huge no-no.
The Turner 2.5 is basically a lower-end rebuild kit that is sold by turner motorsport.. it converts the engine to Sport Evo specs.
Yeah, weak top end, that's what I remember about the early Ms.
Most of the ones I see are trashed, because they really don't bring collector car money. The owners think they do, but the market doesn't agree. It's hard to push an old M3 at a classic car auction. They are best sold "by hand", privately to the few who really appreciate them.
What body style is that M3?
RE: MINI -- I'm going for my across the board MINI test drive tomorrow....new, used...base models and S models.
More than that, I think for the road you drive it might be a safety feature. I was an undergrad at UC Santa Cruz in the 1980s (and not only did I graduate, I now have a good job, but anyway...) and I used to drive that wonderful and somewhat dreaded 17 a good deal. That's a road where sometimes you need to pass and sometimes you need power.
I think there's a good chance you'll keep and S long enough (because you'll be satisfied with it) that that 3k over, say, 6 years, only comes to $500 a year. Not a big deal in terms of $, I don't think, but a big deal in terms of performance.
And why I argue for new is that the new generation of Mini seems significantly better. Here's the comments from one owner of an S who posted on Edmunds:
"2007 MINI Cooper S 2dr Hatchback (1.6L 4cyl Turbo 6M)
Review
Compared to the 2002-2006 MINI cooper S the current MINI is leaps and bounds ahead. Providing quicker 0-60mph and overtaking times. The engine is a major improvment and one can see and feel that this is actually a BMW designed vehicle."
Another one:
"2007 MINI Cooper S 2dr Hatchback (1.6L 4cyl Turbo 6M)
Review
Have owned my Mini for three months now. It gets a lot of attention and questions from curious people. People even roll down their windows and ask questions when I'm sitting in traffic. Can't believe how smooth and fast the car accelerates. Torque steer on this car can be a little scary if you punch it hard. Very comfy for two people. Great on gas, averaging 32 MPG with combined city/highway and can go almost 400 miles on one tank. Had a Murano try to follow me through the twisty bits a couple weeks ago. That was funny. The ride can be a little harsh over bumps and is probably not for everyone. Probably the most irritating thing about this car is having traffic in front of you.
Favorite Features
Acceleration. Seats are classy and cradle driver. Great gas mileage without having to give up performance. Nice quality interior. Good looking exterior. Handles well. No turbo-lag...six speed is easy to drive."
The great thing about the S is that the peak torque of 177 lbs comes at 1600 rpm! That sounds like fun. You don't have to rev it up to 4000 or 5000 to make this thing really go.
Shifty, for what it's worth, I really think you should splurge for the the new Mini Cooper S.
ALSO (now don't be shocked) I'm not real fond of turbo cars--I mean the way they behave....from meow to YOW in a split second. With a FWD car (or a rear-engine car) this can be tricky. I really like a "steady climb", ala like a non-aspirated torquey motor might give. I think an SC gives you both worlds in a sense, don't you?
I am going to wait to drive the MkII MINI when the Clubman comes out then drive them both back to back. That should be about the time I will be looking to get a new car anyway. My wife and I are planning a cross country trip for next July/August and we are going to buy a new car right before then. If it was going to be a car just for the long trip and then a fun car for me the decision would be easy but that is not the case. After the trip the car will be my wife's daily driver to replace her Jeep and she will just use the Jeep when the snow is bad.
The overall results not quite as expected!
Test #1
2003 Cooper S:
Great fun but with the Run Flats and Sport Suspension the ride is B-R-U-T-A-L. This car will need (as far as I'm concerned) 4 brand-new Go Flat Tires and 4 smaller diameter wheels. (it sports 17s) So....$$$ has to be spent from the get-go to square this car away for my needs. Probably a thou to make it right.
Test #2: 2005 base Cooper manual trans:
Not a likable car. Rides better than the S above but the transmission is gnarly and the engine feels very unsophisticated indeed. Kind of gutless, too. Not a contender under any circumstances. No way. Get me out of here.
Test #3: 2007 Cooper (base) hatchback, 6 speed Getrag with premium package:
Well, quite a surprise here! Nice ride, smooth tight engine, and very peppy if you know how to work the gearshift to advantage. Vastly improved version of the 2005 in every way. Stronger engine than the Scion xA, quite rev-happy, smooth transmission, great seats. This is a much better engine than before.
Test #4: 2007 Cooper S:
No surprises here---fun car in that turbo kinda way. Performance to spare...but again...a bit harsh with the run flats...car felt "hot" after a hard run...could smell coolant when standing outside the car. Sure was fun, though. Downside? $4,000 more than the well-optioned base model by the time I'm done. Fast little car.
CONCLUSION: I hate to say it, but now I'm leaning toward the 2007 base model with options. It comes in the colors I want, with the full warranty and full free service and roadside assistance. Tempting even though that turbo urge isn't there. The S is just plain expensive for a little hatch.