Hyundai Sonata vs Honda Accord

flc2006 · September 2007

Hyundai realized that the 4 cylinder should be standard on all trim levels for 2008, because of high fuel prices people do not want a V6 as much, they wanted more 4cylinders instead.

backy · September 2007

I think this list of improvements coming this March in the Sonata is pretty interesting wrt this discussion (asuming it holds up for the U.S. market):

*Azera lookin front end
*Horsepower increase for both 4cyl and V6
*Improved fuel economy for both engines
*5 speed auto trans for 4cyl
*Blue background dashboard lights
*Improved handling and ride
*Specific sport handling for SE model
*Redone interior featuring, more storage,better finish,less plastic looking
*USB port and i-pod jack
*Exhaust tuned for performance sound

Consider where the Sonata currently falls short of the Accord, in fact or in the opinions of some:

* Front end reminds some of an older Accord: while that isn't a terrible thing by itself, a nose job would take that quibble away. Personally I'd like to see the new nose more like the Genesis' than the Azera's, and I've read other reports that say that is what will happen, so we'll have to see.
* Engines lag in power behind the Accord: more power coming--how much, we'll have to see. I think the Sonata (and the old Accord) have plenty of power, but for some folks the more power, the better.
* Improved fuel economy for both engines: the current Sonata is competitive with the new Accord there, just 1 mpg down in some EPA numbers depending on powertrain, but any improvement there is welcome.
* 5 speed AT for I4: This puts Sonata on par with Accord on the number of cogs in the slushbox, and is probably related to the FE improvement (i.e. the Optima with the same I4 as the Sonata has higher FE with its 5AT).
* Blue background on dashboard lights: the old-fashioned green lighting is a common complaint, so this is a nice change.
* Improved handling and ride: handling is a common area of complaint, especially from people who prefer the Accord's handling, so this is a biggie depending on how well it's executed. I just hope Hyundai doesn't take away the quiet and smooth ride in improving the handling.
* Specific sport handling for SE model: I wonder if this change will involve the active rear suspension that has been available in other markets since 2004?
* Redone interior: based on the photo, the new center stack is a big improvement over the current one. I don't think the rest of the current interior is all that bad.
* USB port and iPod jack: Pretty much givens these days.
* Exhaust tuned for performance sound: Yeah, well, okay, but this is after all a family sedan.

No mention of optional nav, but Motor Trend reported in August that the Sonata would get nav as an option in 2008.

So, with all those improvements... pretty interesting matchup against the new Accord, eh?

eldaino · September 2007

The 2003 Sonata is a design that debuted in 1998. The 2003 Accord was all-new that year. Not a fair comparison. And not the comparision we're talking about in this discussion.

but its ok to call out the prev gen accord (03-07,) on its braking ability compared with a car that was actually newer? How is that fair? And does that again not include an accord in which this thread is NOT about?

the accord won that comparo too. Icing on the honda cake.

eldaino · September 2007

whats growing tiresome is people calling out honda for its lack of inclusion of certain features when there are hordes of other automakers who have done it too.

and its a moot point, because THIS thread is about the 2008 HONDA ACCORD, which just so happens to have it just as standard as hyundai does.

thegraduate · September 2007

Well, the 2008 Accord & the 2008 Sonata!

If I didn't say it, someone else would've.

robertsmx · September 2007

It would be delusional to think that others are adding things because Hyundai is setting a benchmark. Hyundai is indeed putting out competent vehicles but let us not get carried away. Accord and Camry are universally considered benchmark, and to a lesser extent, Altima is too. Then there are other players like Mazda6, Aura, G6, Sonata, Fusion, Galant (used to be a bigger player a few years ago) and so on.

Honda usually waits for a full design to add major features, and its model cycle last five years while minor changes are made with MMC (in fourth year of the five year design cycle). This philosophy is reflected even in Hondas business plan. Kia probably has a bigger line of vehicles than does Honda (or it feels like it). Honda has long been about lean and efficient processes. They dont do it all at once, instead add stuff slowly and steadily. I dont see any difference now.

Another good example is Hondas inclusion of pedestrian safety technology in American vehicles. This is not something that shows up on spec sheet or in crash test ratings, and is limited only to European market. But they are design criteria even in exclusively American offerings too.

Niche players have to be more creative and do things a bit differently. They can afford to be. They dont have much choice either. For likes of Honda and Toyota, they have to worry about pleasing 400K or more customers every year, trying to attract new ones while ensuring a very high retention rate. The new Accord is clearly designed to appeal to buyers from 1998-2002 era (which was perhaps the most successful generation in terms of sales for Honda). I have read that the new Accord even drives like one in terms of tracking (and that is a good thing).

Another thing to consider is price sensitivity. With almost 80% of car being manufactured (not just assembly) in the USA, the cost is higher. It is not easy to maintain a balance between cost, quality and features. And what one gets is an incredible package that sets tone on quality. Sure they are not the cheapest, but they can back up their price rather well.

Cant wait to test drive the new Accord. Im sure it is still a Honda!

eldaino · September 2007

thanks grad!

and good post by robertsmx, once again.

eldaino · September 2007

Most folks who I have talked to only consider the Sonata BECAUSE of its value pricing compared to say the CamCordTima. If the Sonata were priced anywhere near it's immediate rivals, it wouldn't sell as well.

what a FANTASTIC point. I asked some hyundai troops if they would still consider their rides if all the deep discounting was no longer available, and if msrp was around the same as the altima, accord, and camry.

i can't remember if it was c/d or edmunds, but the sonata took 1st place in that comparo, when they anazlyed bang for buck. (a v-6 for 20k for example.)

But the same people (again, can't remember if it was edmunds or c/d) decided to not play it by price and stack up the cars on dynamics and feel. The sonata i belive was 4th place, if not 3rd.

I do think hyundai has come a long way, but they are by no means the benchmark, and if any car is going to be used as a way to attack the price premium you pay for the accord, the sonata is not it. Sure, maybe the next gen will be much better and they will finally address driving dynamics, but who knows how far advanced the accord will be by then.

I didn't realize that so many college grads preferred the sonata. I wonder what school THEY go to.

I think backy mentioned the 'older people' who he frequently sees driving accords, and how they probably have no regard for sporting character. The hyundai crowd is no better, and i see plenty of young-ish people driving them. (although its more common amongst the coupes)

and regardless of who's driving them, its the dynamics of the CAR, not the driver, that determines what kind of 'sportiness' the company who built it put into the car.

thegraduate · September 2007

But the same people (again, can't remember if it was edmunds or c/d) decided to not play it by price and stack up the cars on dynamics and feel. The sonata i belive was 4th place, if not 3rd.

C/D put the Sonata in third of four, behind Accord (1), Fusion (2), and ahead of the late-model Camry (4). Obviously that's an old comparo.

When the new Malibu and 6 come out, a big down-and-dirty comparo will be in order from C/D, MT, etc.

robertsmx · September 2007

Average age and average price of an Accord is similar to average age and average price of a typical car in the USA. Coupe buyers are younger (by about five years) compared to sedan buyers and that is true for both Civic and Accord.

Another fact to consider is that once cars reach a saturation point on sales, there is little growth to be had. Given the competition today, 350-400K units/year appears to be just that. Anything on top will probably need help from fleet market. And when a company has more repeat buyers, its average age will steadily go up as well. I was 23+ when I got my first Honda (Accord). I might consider this new Accord early next year and I will be 34. In the process, I would have skipped a generation (2003-2007) and will be adding to the average age more than I did ten years ago.

That said, a family sedan makes more sense now than it did ten years ago. But I was always more practicality minded, so sedan was it and stayed away from coupes (I do have family and friends visit regularly and dont want to force them to back seat of a coupe).

So, I have yet to understand the fascination with age factor in arguments (or magazines). First of all, always having younger buyers isnt going to help a company. It would indicate less buyer retention, and buyers that usually want something cheaper. Older buyers are (generally) better financially.

However, in a struggling economy, the best place to be is either at the bottom or at the top. If gas prices keep going up and economy goes downhill, Civic will gain a lot of Accord buyers. Im actually also considering the next Honda Fit. So, the Accord will have to beat that little thing.

(I already have a sedan, so Accord will only be redundant).

eldaino · September 2007

agreed. most younger kids get civics for the fact that they are younger and have to buy a car at a price point. You dont see to many 20 year olds in exl v6 nav accords.

Grad, i know you are my age, but you are the exception bro.

(your's is an ex-l is it not?)

robertsmx, the new fit looks very promising!

thegraduate · September 2007

Nope. EX, cloth. I LOVE having a moonroof, and would like the auto climate, but in Alabama, leather would be painful when parked in the sun! So EX cloth was the answer (and frankly, the EX-L was too much $).

eldaino · September 2007

ah ok. a friend of mine has an exl in the same color as yours (graphite pearl) which is probably where i got the idea from.

I like the fabric in the ex though.

thegraduate · September 2007

I have had someone (a girl) tell me "you have a really nice, soft, seat." My first response was "when did you touch my butt? I thought the workouts were helping!"

They are REALLY high-quality cloth. MUCH better than the 2008 LX-P (beige interior - YUCK) I sat in, and softer than the 2008 EX 4-cyl (black interior) I sat in as well.

effect18 · September 2007

I think whats more delusional is an attempt at denying or downplaying Hyundai's value(not just price). Hyundai has thrown in features that other companies such as Honda have not for years. Now, you can make the argument that Camcordima(cute) doesn't have to, but your arguement falls on deaf ears to consumers who want those features, and dont want to pay extra. It sounds to me that beating up on Hyundai is your gratification for spending more money on a car that essentially has less to offer than a Sonata similarly priced. All that critics have left to do at that point is pray that the car becomes unreliable once the Greatest warranty in america expires.

I never said, nor did anyone else, that the Sonata was a benchmark. I said, for the most part, that Camcordima has taken notice, and Hyundai has become a thorn in they're side.

To assume that if Hyundai we're doing good, they would raise they're prices isn't smart business. That would alienate the very people who made them great. Thats like walmart trying to turn itself into Best Buy. You have people who will go into Best Buy and pay whatever the price is and not care, because they trust Best Buy. Then you have people who will go to walmart, pay less, and rest assured that the company will stand behind they're products(nobody has a better return policy than walmart). Hyundai's hook is they offer the same(actually more) of a car for less of a price. This is what has made them successful. No reason to change that formula, that would even the playing the playing field, but why do that, what would they're be to gain? OR prove?

Yea, the new Accord will still be a Honda!, and the next Altima will be a Nissan. But your love for the brand is what blinds you.

elroy5 · September 2007

My reply to this is that all these features you mention are not that important to me. Will I ever use Stability Control? Are Active head restraints really necessary? My Accord has a 5 star crash rating without these things. I have to look at my car's interior every day, so I want it to look nice, I want my car to ride smooth, but not feel like a boat. My last Accord lasted 12 years, and was still in great shape, when I finally sold it (for a good price I might add). So that makes me confident that the new Accord will hold up just as well. Do I have that confidence in a Sonata? No, and why should I? There is a feeling of solidness, stability, and quality you get driving an Accord, that I don't think I would get from the Sonata (or many other cars in this segment). I am willing to pay a little extra for that piece of mind. I feel secure that I will get the quality I expect with an Accord. Another car would have to build that trust in me, and I'm not willing to take the chance on a car with very little history of quality behind it. Hyundai may have some influence on Honda, but I think Honda has more influence on Hyundai.

backy · September 2007

Will I ever use Stability Control? Are Active head restraints really necessary?

I really hope you don't ever have to use stability control or active head rests. Or ABS, or airbags, or side door beams, or crumple zones. I hope I never have to use them either. But like the insurance policies I own, I like the fact they are there protecting my family and me.

backy · September 2007

It set a standard (for about a year) for safety features...

Try two and a half years.

Maybe one reason Sonata has not better solidified its position in the marketplace is that few people give it any credit for what it does right, other than low price.

backy · September 2007

... THIS thread is about the 2008 HONDA ACCORD...

i can't remember if it was c/d or edmunds, but the sonata took 1st place in that comparo, when they anazlyed bang for buck. (a v-6 for 20k for example.)

But the same people (again, can't remember if it was edmunds or c/d) decided to not play it by price and stack up the cars on dynamics and feel. The sonata i belive was 4th place, if not 3rd.

Were these comparos of the 2008 Sonata and 2008 Accord? I don't think so...

But what say Edmunds.com repeated their comparo from a couple of years ago, and tested a liked-priced Accord and Sonata? I think the price limit at that time was $22k. Let's bump it up a bit for inflation, to $23k. That would pit the Accord LX-P I4 vs. the Sonata SE V6. Wonder how that one would turn out?

elroy5 · September 2007

You can assume all you like, but unless they do the comparo again, we'll never know. The I4 Accord has improved in many ways (more room, more power, more features), whereas the Sonata is the same car now, that it was then. I would like to see those results myself. The much better fuel mileage, may just make up for the power difference.

robertsmx · September 2007

so, backy when did you learn that this thread was about 2008 "only".

As for the virtual comparo, if you bump it to $23K, Accord EX would sneak in. But, is Sonata available with MT?

backy · September 2007

Actually the Accord EX I4 MT starts at $23,695 MSRP, so that wouldn't make a $23k cutoff. The Sonata SE I4 MT starts at $20,245 MSRP. If you want to go over $23k, now you are looking at the Sonata Limited I4 (with AT) or the SE V6 (with AT) with premium package.

robertsmx · September 2007

MSRP: $23,060 ($635 is destination)

thegraduate · September 2007

And since EVERYONE has destination included in their cost (it is a fixed cost unlike doc fees, etc...), you do the math.

slamtaz · September 2007

My reply to this is that all these features you mention are not that important to me. Will I ever use Stability Control? Are Active head restraints really necessary? My Accord has a 5 star crash rating without these things.

You're right, because last i read, the NHTSA gave the 2008 Accord 5 stars for frontal collisions ONLY and just 4 stars for side impacts and the same goes for older models. The Sonata's got 5 stars for BOTH even for just the current model! :P

And pray you'll never be rear-ended in your Accord, for without the Active Head restraint (which the Sonata's got), you'll be a prime candidate for dreaded whiplash injury. :sick:

And my reply to this is that all these handling & driving dynamics in favor of the Accord you mentioned (i.e. slight advantage over the Sonata) are not that important to me. And those advantages of the Accord are made even less significant to me since it means paying a lot more $$$ for something that is apparently less safe.

But then again, if you prefer better handling & driving dynamics over better safety and price per feature value, then the Accord wins hand down. :shades:

backy · September 2007

The 2008 Accord has active headrests now, to pull even with Sonata in that area. I am a little surprised they waited that long to add them, since the Civic has had them since late 2005 and Honda has added safety features in mid-generation before (e.g. standard side bags/curtains to all Accords in the middle of its last generation), but at least it has the active headrests now.

robertsmx · September 2007

Indeed, but it is quoted separately. MSRP is MSRP.

robertsmx · September 2007

I am a little surprised they waited that long to add them, since the Civic has had them since late 2005 and Honda has added safety features in mid-generation before

They didn't "wait" longer, they put it when it made sense, getting along their established processes. They ain't looking to match competition, they go at their own pace, adding a few things at a time (and mostly at FMC, and sometimes MMC).

bhmr59 · September 2007

There is the advertised MSRP and the total MSRP which includes any options and destination charge.

Real world MSRP is the total MSRP, the complete car.

robertsmx · September 2007

No. MSRP is "Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price".

Destination is a separate piece, which is non-negotiable, but not included in "MSRP". Rebate is not MSRP or a part of it either. Is it? That must be Hyundai speak.

thegraduate · September 2007

MSRP = Manufacturer's Suggest Retail Price

MSRP starting at $17,345 means the lowest MSRP available on a Sonata is $17,345. Rebates are independent of MSRP.

robertsmx · September 2007

I hope so.

Speaking of Hyundai, the rebate appears to be a permanent fixture, as it is being offered even on 2008.

If I were negotiating on a car, I prefer to pay listed invoice, never MSRP. Sonata is listed at $16.9K (invoice). But since Hyundai is offering a $1K rebate, I should still get $1K off, right, effectively making it a $16K deal plus destination ($675). Right?

Or is it purely a marketing gimmick, telling customers of rebate, attracting them, but taking it off only MSRP?

bhmr59 · September 2007

The window sticker on our '07 shows:

Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price $21,345.
Options: Carpeted Floor Mats $85.
Inland Freight & Handling $650.
Total Manufacturers Suggested Reail Price $22080

If you still have it, check the window sticker from your car. It will contain the same format of information since this is required by the Federal Government. Dealer installed options are not included in MSRP.

We paid $16,651 plus $189 doc fee plus $1349 in taxes and registration for a total out the door, no trade deal, of $18,189. This was at a dealer selling price $1900 below invoice and $2500 in rebates.

thegraduate · September 2007

There is a billboard in Bay Minette, AL (near the beach) which has been up for a year, advertising Sonatas at $15,495.

I don't think its a gimmick, I think they are really low-priced.

thegraduate · September 2007

My how times have changed. My 1996 Accord's sticker shows a destination charge under $400! Now, you are lucky if you are under $700.

robertsmx · September 2007

2008?

I was doing some math on Accord EX-L/V6 and Hyundai Limited/V6 (with moonroof option). Accord at invoice plus destination will be about $26.4K. Sonata with $1K rebate off MSRP plus destination will be $24.7K. That isnt a big difference.

It might be a little better if Hyundai dealership deals down to invoice and then considers rebate on top of it. That would be selling well below invoice.

thegraduate · September 2007

Trust me, check around the boards, people aren't even paying invoice on the Sonatas.

robertsmx · September 2007

I dont believe dealerships and their advertisements until I see the car in person. A friend of mine is set on a Rav4 Limited (MSRP is about $23,500), no options. Dealerships are advertising it a few hundred off MSRP, but when she talks to them, the only ones they have are with an option package or two (with unnecessary things added), pushing the MSRP to $25K or above. So, she has expanded her search into Houston area, but so far nothing has changed.

I don't believe much of the boards either. A lot of posters are really sales people. They will post whatever they want.

But, I'm curious if Hyundai is already giving away 2008 Sonatas at below invoice price. I can see that applying to 2007 clearance. Even Honda has to do it.

robertsmx · September 2007

Hyundai still sells carpeted floor mats as an option?

thegraduate · September 2007

Whatever buddy... I can see that you aren't interested in anything positive about the Sonata, so I'll quit responding.

I'm a 2-Accord owner (with pictures to prove it!

) and have sense enough to know the Sonata can be had for a MUCH lower price than Accord can.

You "assume" that the rebate will only knock $1000 off of MSRP on the Sonata, but go ahead and take the invoice price on the Accord.

If you ask me, I'm gonna have to say that the model that has been out since 2005 is going to be had below invoice Loooong before the brand-new for 2008 model will be.

I'm probably Honda biased (I love my Accords) and even I can see and state that.

bhmr59 · September 2007

Grad, as you know, so much depends on a dealership. When I bought my '05 Sonata the local dealer was advertising it at something like $15,998. But, that included rebates I did not qualify for, plus destination had to be added to the advertised price, plus a $399 doc fee, plus a $500 advertising fee and on and on. Total MSRP was $19,594. He would only discount $500 off MSRP (plus the then $1500 general rebate.)

My parents live in FL. They checked with a dealer there and got a much better price. In a couple days I was on Jet Blue. Spent a couple days in FL and drive home to CT. Total cost for the trip ws $300. I saved about $1800 on the car (before the cost of the trip). My total OTD on that purchase was $17,826.

Dealerships, as you've said before, do make a difference.

robertsmx · September 2007

I don't doubt you. But you missed my point completely, and have started to speak for dealerships.

There are positives in Sonata (and I have mentioned it), but it ain't a car for me. Does that mean, I shouldn't ask questions, and counter the arguments being made in this thread?

It is not a bad thing to point at weaknesses (Sonata or Accord). In this case, I'm questioning whether people are in a better position to negotiate than what advertisements have to say. But don't worry about it. You can have it your way. Just skip my posts since it would help your cause.

bhmr59 · September 2007

Yes, they still list carpeted floor mats as an option for some strange reason. However, I have not seen a new Hyundai that does not include this option. But they do include many features as standard equipment that other manufacturers charge extra for.

The mats cost us about $55. But, remember they were included in the previously posted prices.

thegraduate · September 2007

No, I think I do get your point that dealerships will often renig on an advertisement, or offer only one vehicle at that price etc...

I just think there's a little too much "Honda way or the highway" going on; my two Hondas are great cars, but the 2008s are a disappointment based on interior quality alone.

My intent wasn't to speak for dealerships, but rather the more likely transaction price for these two cars. Between the two, I think the Sonata will be much MUCH lower. Resale will be also, but that wasn't my point.

robertsmx · September 2007

I am not arguing that Sonata wont be cheaper of the two. But Im asking if rebates are independent of negotiations. Hyundai experts/sales people around here should be able to tell it to use, the commoners.

BTW, you're correct, Honda way or highway would definitely apply to me. It is based on my personal experience and I dont' see that changing. My purchases are based on set budget. If I can do better, I go for it (which has happened with all of my purchases). But I'm not going to settle for less on price. May be someday if I stop enjoying driving. But thats me.

I can sit in virtually any car and nitpick about it. Some are easier than others. That takes me to the highway thing...

colloquor · September 2007

"Another thing to consider is price sensitivity. With almost 80% of car being manufactured (not just assembly) in the USA, the cost is higher. It is not easy to maintain a balance between cost, quality and features. And what one gets is an incredible package that sets tone on quality. Sure they are not the cheapest, but they can back up their price rather well."

I disagree with your statement, and I'm sure all of the manufacturers who have plants here in the USA would too. Why do you think Honda, Hyundai, Nissan, Toyota, et. al. built plants here? Because the overall cost of production, including shipping, etc., is cheaper than doing so in their own countries.

The wage scale of workers in Japan, for example, is quite high, as it is in South Korea with their extremely strong, and united, union workforce. Most, if not all, workers in the aforementioned American plants are non-union, therefore the fixed costs, and long-term costs, are lower than they would be in their own nation. Like it or not, with the current status of the dollar on the international market, it's much cheaper for foreign companies to build plants, and vehicles, here, than to build them in their own country for export to the USA.

thegraduate · September 2007

I can sit in virtually any car and nitpick about it. Some are easier than others. That takes me to the highway thing...

I do the same thing. The only problem I have now run into is the poor quality in 2 different 2008s I have sat in. One was an EX, one was an LX-P, and BOTH were disappointing to the point I can say the Fusion, while lacking in interior style, had better quality in areas such as the center stack.

bhmr59 · September 2007

Any informed buyer should know that rebates are independent of price negotiations regardless of the make of the car.

robertsmx · September 2007

Agreed. That is why Im trying to get the information to be informed. This might help a few friends in their quest for a vehicle.

robertsmx · September 2007

Honda and Toyota don't just assemble their cars here. They build it here as do most of their parts (There is a difference).

And none of these companies have to build it here for lower costs. It might be better to do it in other countries, and lot of automakers (including those two) do that. I don't know where South Korea stacks up, but USA and Japan are not the best place to build cheaper cars.

Hyundai Sonata vs Honda Accord

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