Go Green By Driving It 'Til The Wheels Fall Off

bumpy · October 2007

It depends on who's doing it. A dealer or mechanic will usually replace all the hoses, O-rings, etc. to cover their liability. If that stuff is all in very good condition, you can usually leave it and just replace the gas fittings. A Silverado has most of its AC parts out in the open where they're relatively easy to reach, while Lemko's Park Avenue has most of that stuff buried.

http://www.shoptrac.com/r12retro.htm
http://www.teamchicago.com/imperial/imp-ac.htm

british_rover · October 2007

Yup I ran into the same problem with my 1989 Pontiac. I looked into doing the R134a retrofit on it the summer after I got out of college but even with me doing all the work it was a PITA and I didn't bother.

I was planning to buy a new car by next summer so I just suffered with marginal AC for one more summer.

andre1969 · October 2007

A Silverado has most of its AC parts out in the open where they're relatively easy to reach, while Lemko's Park Avenue has most of that stuff buried.

So if I wanted to retrofit something like my '67 Catalina or '76 LeMans, I'm guessing it wouldn't be too major of an undertaking, either? Most of the a/c components are pretty exposed, especially in the Catalina. Seems like Chrysler would tend to bury more of the HVAC stuff in the dash.

bumpy · October 2007

Yeah, but on those old monsters you're better off just installing a new, more efficient AC system for them rather than trying to refurbish the old stone-knives-and-bear-claws stuff they have now.

fezo · October 2007

Andre - just realized that your Intrepid and my Accord were bought about a month apart. Very close to the same mileage as well.

We just keep it rolling. Someone backed into it in a parking lot so I have to replace a tail lens. It scratched up the bumper but at this point it's not worth fixing that. Mechanically it runs pretty much as it always has. I need to figure out where two interior bulbs are (odometer and clock). That's about it.

Since my wife is the primary driver on that now (I got stuck with the van because she travels during the day and puts loads more miles on than I do) I won't do anything with it until she wants to. That could be a long time. Her dad was a car salesman and went through loads of cars. Her mom always drilled it into her head - "don't fall in love with a car. It'll be gone." That works for me.

nippononly · October 2007

Keep the R-12, it runs colder! (Of course, it is also MUCH worse for the atmosphere if it leaks).

In California I have heard we have special laws that outlaw the use of R-12 even from existing supply. However, the flip side of that is the whole price for conversion to R134a is down to about $600-800 depending on the model and how buried things are, as a whole cottage industry has sprung up around it.

It's either convert or get used to the warmth, no exceptions...

This is a good example for this thread, as A/C systems in old cars tend to leak all those good CFCs into the ozone. Should one still be driving around in it once it is doing that, or should one have replaced it before that? Of course, you could just pay to have the system professionally drained once it got to a certain point, but since you wouldn't know it was leaking until it was all done, I don't know how you would anticipate it in time to do any good.

hpmctorque · October 2007

The best time to convert from R-12 (freon) to R-134a is if the compressor goes on the old vehicle, and you'd have to replace the compressor in any event to have A/C.

jeromeb · October 2007

To the opening poster,
I do plan to keep my car until critical components fail ...
Then I plan to replace them. I'm still making payments because at the end of 2003 I didn't want to make another repair on a paid-off car. What hurts, teaches. I've learned.

andre1969 · October 2007

Yeah, but on those old monsters you're better off just installing a new, more efficient AC system for them rather than trying to refurbish the old stone-knives-and-bear-claws stuff they have now.

Would the a/c setup in my '67 & '76 Pontiacs really be all that different from what's in my Silverado, though? Or would it be best to just put an all-new System in the Silverado, as well?

Oh, final mechanic's bill for the Intrepid came to around $590. Front end is nice and tight again. A/C turned out to just be low on Freon. But he couldn't find where it was leaking from. I know a/c systems are supposed to be totally closed, but is it possible that, with time, they just leak a little, while still being perfectly functional? It had been at the point where it would blow nice and cold up to maybe the high 80's, but once you got into the 90's, you were almost better off just rolling down the windows.

andre1969 · October 2007

This is a good example for this thread, as A/C systems in old cars tend to leak all those good CFCs into the ozone. Should one still be driving around in it once it is doing that, or should one have replaced it before that? Of course, you could just pay to have the system professionally drained once it got to a certain point, but since you wouldn't know it was leaking until it was all done, I don't know how you would anticipate it in time to do any good.

Nah, you would know that there was a problem with the a/c well before all the freon was evacuated. As an example, in my previous post about my Intrepid, it was a little low on freon, to the point that the a/c worked fine in temps up to the high 80's, but once you got into the 90's, it was almost useless. Even in home systems, it can be like this. The heat pump at my old condo wasn't working so well anymore, and it turns out it was just low on freon. Not totally out, but just low.

bristol2 · October 2007

I think what burned me on repairs was a '87 Saab (which I loved) but it was expensive to fix and needed fixing regularly.

As a poorly paid out-of-college fella at the time it made more sense to get a $7000 Integra that I would make a regular (planned) payment on then keep alive the old Saab when I could never plan for repairs.

Since that experience I've been leery of trying to band-aid old vehicles. Plus I have no mechanical skills which is a big part of having confidence in keeping an old vehicle on the road I think.

fezo · October 2007

"I think what burned me on repairs was a '87 Saab (which I loved) but it was expensive to fix and needed fixing regularly."

And that is the textbook definition of a Saab. Mine was a 73. Loved it but it ate my wallet.

corvette · October 2007

They can recharge it with a UV dye that makes the leak easier to find--that's what they did on Mom's Volvo 960, but I think we sold the car before it leaked enough to cause a problem again.

colloquor · October 2007

I guess my '85 classic SAAB 900 8-valve is an anomaly, it's like the Energizer bunny - it just keeps going and going . . . I haven't had any repairs since I rebuilt the front brakes two years ago. It's had no engine or transmission repair work since purchase, except for a new clutch 7 years ago.

The now defunct stand-alone SAAB dealer where I bought the 900 from in April '85, converted the R12 A/C to R134a, and the total bill was a bit less than $200.

When it does require work, I do it all myself. And, I buy all the necessary parts from an online retailer that sells OEM parts for a fraction of what a SAAB dealer sells them.

My daughter's '87 900S 16-valve - which we bought used with over a 130K on the clock - was a bit costly to initially get back on the road. I think that was due to the severe lack of regular preventive maintenance for the first 13 years of its life!

hpmctorque · October 2007

Interesting, but it does seem that your '85 is an anomaly. What's the mileage on it? Also, when was the R12 converted to 134a?

fezo · October 2007

I will say that my brother has an 02 9-3 which really hasn't given him any trouble. I still rather like Saabs but approach them in much the way I approach Volkswagens - with great caution.

gagrice · October 2007

Keep the R-12, it runs colder!

When did CA outlaw R12? My ex-wife's 1990 Camry had a slow leak. I took it to a shop about 1999 and they wanted $135 to recharge it. We went to Tijuana and the AC shop there recharged it for $12 including labor. He used a can of Dupont R12. We did that again about 2 years later. Not sure after that as we got divorced. She is still driving the car.

nippononly · October 2007

As I recall it was about five years ago, maybe a little less. My memory isn't what it used to be...

pathstar1 · November 2007

Not only is it illegal to sell or use (unless it is already in an existing system), they have started to arrest people selling and using it. The fines are rather large. There are other alternatives to R12 besides R134. Search the net and you'll find them. They work much better than R134, but Dupont doesn't want you to know that!

gagrice · November 2007

So you can still get an existing R12 system recharged in CA? According to the shop I checked with 7-8 years ago R12 had a huge use tax on it here. I wonder if my wife's 1990 LS400 uses R12. It works fine and never has needed recharging.

lemko · November 2007

...air pollution laws really tough? A co-worker has a 1999 Camry 4-cylinder with about 112K miles on it. He says it blows a little bit of blue smoke when the car starts, but is then OK. If that's all it's doing, I'd imagine he should only add a quart when it's needed rather than going through the expense of repairing the car. Would a little bit of blue smoke on start-up cause the car to fail emmissions in N.J.?

He says he's having it looked at for about $1,200. I'd imagine a ring job would be a lot more than $1,200.

bumpy · November 2007

Ring job? It's not a '53 Studebaker. You have to do a lot more than just change out the rings on an engine these days.

I don't think the Ford smoke at startup will hurt the smog test, since it should be warmed up by the time it gets to the testing station.

bumpy · November 2007

It's not so much different as it is older than sand by now, so you might well replace it with more efficient parts since you'd have to pull them out to rebuild them anyway.

andre1969 · November 2007

My '85 Silverado and '00 Intrepid both blow a little light gray smoke at startup, and under hard acceleration.

The Intrepid gets the OBD-II scan, so they just check the computer for error codes, and don't actually test its output. I was worried about the truck, since it does smoke a bit, but back in December it passed the treadmill test with flying colors.

For the most part, I think the stuff they test for is invisible to the naked eye, whereas the visible pollutants aren't items they test for. I guess if it was really blowing bad enough though, they might fail it.

pathstar1 · November 2007

It's not supposed to be available anywhere in the US. Notice the poster above got it put in in Mexico, where laws tend to be enforced liberally and influenced by money before you go to court.

cooterbfd · November 2007

Well, I bought a retrofit kit for my '88 regal, '91 GMC and my Aunts '88 Park Ave. All I did was release the R-12 (SSSSSSSSHHHHHH!) use the new fittings, and fill it w/ 134a. All worked fine. I kept the Regal for 2 more yrs. (junked it in '02). Sold the GMC last yr (it ran for 6 yrs w/ the 134a) and my Aunts is still ice cold after 6 yrs.

My '99 Ultra just turned 101,000 mi and I hope to keep it 5 more yrs before I replace it.

nippononly · November 2007

Behavior like cooter's is precisely why California has the law it does. :-P

And no, you can't recharge your R-12 system in California. Now if you want to drive over to Nevada, well, the Nevadans are notoriously loose about lots of things, including that. They are allowed to recharge it from existing stock, I believe.

The older 4-cylinder Camrys have a known problem with prematurely hardening valve seals, which is where the blue smoke at cold start-up comes from on so many of them. The $1200 is probably the cost of having the seals replaced.

210delray · November 2007

You're right about the Camrys; I had the problem twice in my '97 Camry: once just before the powertrain warranty ran out, and again beginning at 102K miles.

The cost to service the problem was $800-$1,000 the first time (under warranty, so I didn't pay anything). (This was in VA in 2000.) The second time, I didn't fix it.

stubborn1 · November 2007

I've always tried to maximize the life I get out of a car, and helping the environment is just another benefit (instead of just being a tightwad

)

Here's a twist on the question - How many of you have driven a car for years that has been absolutely reliable, but you can't stand driving it? I picked up a 98 Prizm a few years back. After a few months, it started buring a quart of oil every 600 miles, so I torn down the engine and re-ringed it(yes - newer engines can get bad rings), head job, etc and it's been perfect since. I always average upper 30s for fuel mileage and nothing else to replace besides normal wear and tear items. The only issue is.............. I can't stand the car - it's noisey on the freeway, uncomfortable, and so small that my 4 year old doesn't have enough leg room in the rear. It has 142k miles, but is still solid.

How long do you stick it out in that situation???

andre1969 · November 2007

The only issue is.............. I can't stand the car - it's noisey on the freeway, uncomfortable, and so small that my 4 year old doesn't have enough leg room in the rear. It has 142k miles, but is still solid.

How long do you stick it out in that situation???

I think in a situation like that, I'd really be inclined to get rid of the car and get something more useful. While the reliability and fuel economy are nice, if the car simply is not useful and comfortable to you, and you can't stand it, it's time to get something else, if just for the quality-of-life improvement.

andre1969 · November 2007

My Granddad probably would have done something like that back in the day when working on an a/c system. The only excuse I can think of is that we just didn't know any better back then?

Heck, back in the old days, they used used motor oil as flea dip for dogs and cats! :surprise: Not exactly the good old days. :sick:

I'm more and more tempted to just leave the a/c systems in my old cars alone. None of them really get driven that much. Probably the one that would be most worthwhile to get fixed is the one in my pickup, since I drive it the most.

lemko · November 2007

It's not worthwhile until the hot summer comes along and you look like you ran a marathon by the time you get to work. A dark blue interior definately doesn't help. That's why I went ahead and fixed the system in my Park Ave.

andre1969 · November 2007

It's not worthwhile until the hot summer comes along and you look like you ran a marathon by the time you get to work. A dark blue interior definately doesn't help. That's why I went ahead and fixed the system in my Park Ave.

Yeah, as much as you drive that car, it's worth it to get the a/c fixed. How many miles per year are you putting on it these days? I've discovered that a dark blue interior can actually play mind games with you, especially if it's a cloth/velour. While that dark color retains the heat, the color itself is nice and soothing, so you don't "think" you're as hot as you really are. At least, that's what I discovered with the '79 NYer I bought back in may...midnight blue with a matching interior. I'm just glad it wasn't leather or vinyl!

I think the only time I was really in pain was this past August, when I went up to PA for that Macungie car show in August. I came up in the Intrepid that Saturday afternoon, and I'm sure temps were over 100. The Intrepid's a/c was pretty useless, but rolling down the windows at that temp just made it worse. Thankfully, the temps were pretty moderate when we went to the show that Sunday.

hpmctorque · November 2007

Driving something you like is a first priority. Therefore, my advice is to trade your Corolla and buy something you'll enjoy keeping. The next owner may be very happy with your Corolla, given the price he/she will pay, so you shouldn't deny him/her that pleasure, while you continue suffering. It would make no sense for you to hang on to this car.

hpmctorque · November 2007

I agree with lemko on the A/C question. Unless you're dirt poor, why suffer needlessly. Just as you wouldn't do without a heater in cold weather, it makes little logical sense to deny yourself a reasonable level of comfort in hot, muggy weather. If one just doesn't have the money, then it's another matter; you do what you have to do. After all, driving without A/C on a hot, sultry day beats walking. But even if you use the car/truck occasionally, A/C is a virtual necessity.

My 2 cents.

andre1969 · November 2007

I dunno, I guess I just have a high tolerance for heat! And I'll confess, I've driven without a functioning heater, too! In my '68 Dart, the fan motor shorted out, so it wouldn't blow. When I was in motion, the flow of air coming into the ventillation system would cause it to blow out a bit of warm air, but stopped at a traffic light, it would start to get cold again. And forget about defrosting...that was accomplished with an old towel!

But now that was also right after my divorce, and was pretty busted! Truthfully though, I could probably do without heat nowadays, at least commuting to work. Heck, on a really cold day, sometimes the heater won't even blow hot until I'm pulling into the parking lot at work. Those 3.5 mile commutes can be such a pain sometimes

Now if you live in a REALLY hot climate, or are the type of person that breaks into a sweat easily, I could see a/c being a necessity. But to me, it isn't. I dunno...maybe I'm just a masochist!

stubborn1 · November 2007

Yep - thats the way I was leaning.

The only question now is do I buy new and drive it until 200k, or do I buy a few years used and drive it until 200k? I put on about 25k miles a year, so it won't take too long to rack up the miles.

From strictly an environmental standpoint, used is probably the better option, but does it really matter? With supply and demand the way it is, someone will drive the car until the wheels fall off. The example I'm thinking of was a ride in a taxi cab in Mexico. The car was an 90's Nissan Sentra brought in from the US, painted yellow, and well over 250k miles (I did verify it wasn't km).

The point I'm trying to make is that cars that still have life don't end up in the junkyard. Someone, somewhere will find a use for it. So is is really that bad to buy new??? If there was no market for used, then maybe - but that's not the case.

andre1969 · November 2007

The only question now is do I buy new and drive it until 200k, or do I buy a few years used and drive it until 200k? I put on about 25k miles a year, so it won't take too long to rack up the miles.

I'd say if you want to buy domestic, get one that's 1-2 years old and low mileage. You'll still get plenty of use out of it, but will probably pay half of the original MSRP, or less.

If you want to buy Japanese, especially Honda/Toyota, you might as well just go new. They're not so desireable that they command sticker price anymore, so you can usually get a pretty good deal on one. Yet they still hold their value well enough that you won't get much of a deal buying used. And, unless you order the thing right from the factory, it's already been built, and sitting out there on the lot. So the production of that car has already taken its toll on the environment.

bumpy · November 2007

The example I'm thinking of was a ride in a taxi cab in Mexico. The car was an 90's Nissan Sentra brought in from the US, painted yellow, and well over 250k miles (I did verify it wasn't km).

Are you sure it was an old one? Nissan still builds the '91-94 Sentra in Mexico and sells it as the Tsuru.

gagrice · November 2007

How long do you stick it out in that situation???

I drove a 1951 Studebaker four door to work from 1965 to 1970. It was ugly, poor handling, and got 21 MPG consistently on my 20 mile commute. My wife drove the 1964 Toyota Landcruiser 2 miles to work as it only got about 12 MPG. When I left for Alaska in 1970 my boss bought the old Studebaker and drove it a few more years. It was a small V8 with a 3 speed on the column. Used a little oil and was never overhauled.

lemko · November 2007

You'd be surprised that it's really not that many. I split my mileage between three cars - the Park Ave, my Seville, and my girlfriend's LaCrosse. I usually drive the Park Ave for long trips like going to Carlisle and if I have to go into bad neighborhoods for my other job. I put so few miles on the Seville last year it was actually exempt from the emmissions test. Of all the cars, the LaCrosse probably gets used the most.

lemko · November 2007

I had a friend who really couldn't tolerate heat at all. When I had my 1994 Cadillac DeVille, he'd have the A/C on in the winter when he rode with me! Even in the summer if I put the climate control up to 65 from 60, he'd complain. I don't know if he had a blood disorder or what. He has since passed on. I hope he went to the good place as he couldn't even stand the heat on earth!

lemko · November 2007

My Dad was buying a new Subaru Outback in the fall of 2002. Instead of buying a 2002 model, he went ahead and got a 2003 as there really was such a little difference in the price between the two.

Karen_S · November 2007

A reporter seeks consumers who are planning or have decided to keep their vehicle longer than anticipated due to economic conditions. Please send your daytime contact information to ctalati@edmunds.com no later than Monday, December 3, 2007.

hpmctorque · December 2007

"A reporter seeks consumers who are planning or have decided to keep their vehicle longer than anticipated due to economic conditions."

HOST, where could we find the results of this report, or, even better, could you display the article on this discussion?

corvette · December 2007

Better that they asked here, rather than the Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous topic!

zanglezonker · April 2008

gagrice,

Can you recommend at particular AC shop in TJ?

gagrice · April 2008

It has been several years since I was down there. I would not know which one to send you to. Many will say AC service.

michaellno · May 2008

My step-son has an '01 Saturn L200 that he bought used. It needed to have the transmission rebuilt (it's a stick shift) and that cost over a grand.

It's got somewhere north of 150K on it now and he claims that he's going to drive it until the doors fall off. He's replaced the struts and put new tires on it.

The only issues with it at the moment are that the A/C doesn't work (charge needed?) and, when he had the struts installed, they goofed up the transmission and now he has issues going into reverse. The shop claims that Saturn no longer makes the part needed to effect the repairs, but I told him to check with the Saturn dealer on that, then talk to the shop to see what they'd do.

On the A/C issue, he just lives by the 2/55 rule (2 windows down at 55MPH), but he's getting married at the end of the month and his bride-to-be may have different ideas about keeping comfortable.

So we'll just have to wait and see.

nippononly · May 2008

"...and his bride-to-be may have different ideas about keeping comfortable."

That's always the obstacle to "keeping it til the wheels fall off": in the end, someone just finds it lacking for one reason or another, even though it is still mechanically sound.

Of course, if it really only needs a recharge the A/C could be fairly cheap to get working again. The car itself is not that old.

I am curious how they could possibly screw up strut installation, let alone do so in a way that would affect the gearshift.

Go Green By Driving It 'Til The Wheels Fall Off

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