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GM News, New Models and Market Share

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  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,684
    Back when I delivered pizzas, one of the kids who worked on the inside (and they made him an assistant manager after awhile) got his parents' old Maxima, which was of the '89-94 generation. Didn't take long before he wrapped it around a light pole on a sharp turn at the end of his street.

    As punishment, the next car he got was his parents' old 1984 or so Celebrity station wagon. :P
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    edited December 2012
    I've worked in a parts department. The same model can appear to be the same, but when it comes time to replace parts, they don't ask for a vin or serial number for nothing.

    That's absolutely true.

    I don't know about nowadays, but in the 1960-70's, VW was really good (or bad, depending on your viewpoint) about doing that stuff.

    Example: I had a 1973 VW camper that had 1972 model year rear suspension/brake parts. VW simply just used up its excess 1972 inventory of parts and then converted to the newer model run.

    Less important, but still another example, was my 2002 S-10 pickup, which had a 2001 model year radio and associated mounting hardware. I found this out when I was replacing the radio with one I obtained from Crutchfield's, and the 2002 mounting hardware didn't fit. When I called their support, they knew almost immediately what the solution was, and the new mounting hardware fit perfectly.

    When I bought my 2007 Z-4 Coupe (March 2007), I just missed out on getting the HD radio that was introduced in the late March 2007 Z-4's. so, in theory, its possible that the Pre-HD radio cars could have, either real or imagined, different satisfaction rates than the Post-HD radio cars (although personally, my 328 has HD radio and I never use it.

    My 2009 Tacoma model year is known for faulty radios, and when my dealer replaced mine, he told me that Toyota re-sourced the radios during the middle of the model year. The radios look identical in every way.

    Lastly, BMW was infamously known for its high failure rate of fuel pumps in its direct injected turbo cars from around 2006-2011. After several iterations BMW finally appeared to get the problem resolved, and they didn't wait until the next model year to switch over. So, if you compared a later 2011 335i to a 2009 335i, you would probably find many more fuel pump issues in the virtually exact same model 2009 than a 2011-12 model.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    As punishment, the next car he got was his parents' old 1984 or so Celebrity station wagon. :P

    That's borderline cruel and unusual punishment;)
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    I think for GM, bringing the old names back wasn't a bad idea. But then again, I like heritage based marketing. and GM does have some good heritage.

    I'm not sure about the timing, but didn't the re-use of model names somewhat coincide with the introduction of retro-looking models such as the HHR and PT Cruiser?

    Cars designs are like fashion, in that they wax and wane over the years, going from softer curved edges to more defined shapes and eventually back to the curvy looks again...
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,684
    I'm not sure about the timing, but didn't the re-use of model names somewhat coincide with the introduction of retro-looking models such as the HHR and PT Cruiser?

    The Malibu came out for 1997 and the Impala came out as a 2000, but I think it was a fairly early launch, like April or May of 1999? They did pre-date the PT Cruiser a bit, which came out fairly early in 2000 as a 2001.

    However, retro was starting to get popular in general, as evidenced by the return of the VW Beetle, which I think was also a 1997 model. I also remember a lot of radio stations started doing "retro saturday night", apparently because people were getting nostalgic for disco. And, "That 70's Show" was a big hit.

    I think the HHR was a bit late to the game....didn't it come out for 2006?

    I wonder if there's any single event that triggered the sudden yearning for nostalgia and retro?
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    I wonder if there's any single event that triggered the sudden yearning for nostalgia and retro?

    Probably could be traced back to a late-nite TV commercial for the Hula-hoop, yo-yo or slinky.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    Trivia tidbit of the day...

    Most folks know the code names for the Normandy invasion in WW II... Gold, Sword, Juno, Omaha and Utah.

    In 1945, Offensive planning was creating the plans for the invasion of Japan, in the expectation a land invasion would be necessary. There were 5 beachhead locations:

    Cadillac, Chrysler, Buick, Pontiac and Chevrolet were the names selected. If the plans had been necessary to execute, I can only imagine what effects using those names might have had on the brands in the market today, but it does demonstrate the power and sway the domestic auto industry had back then in 1945 in the USA...
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Maybe they should go further back like Bel Air.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,162
    "I wonder if there's any single event that triggered the sudden yearning for nostalgia and retro? "

    The boring banality of mid-90s mainstream pop culture? I remember that era well as I was in high school - and it made the 80s look like epitome of style and cool.

    And yeah, the Impala was an early 99 release. I remember seeing one by May of 99.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    I, personally, am hard-pressed to come up with any model names used for more model years than Impala, Malibu, and Camaro--from any manufacturer.

    VW Beetle. :blush:
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    And yeah, the Impala was an early 99 release. I remember seeing one by May of 99.

    Yeah, I remember seeing it at the Chicago Auto Show with a group of people commenting on how lame and ugly it looked. Then my wife got an 01 Impala for a company car. Ugly inside and out, and nothing like the cars that made the Impala name in the 60's.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    I, personally, am hard-pressed to come up with any model names used for more model years than Impala, Malibu, and Camaro--from any manufacturer.

    Porsche 911, continuous since 1963.

    I'd have to think the Suburban is probably the longest running name. Doesn't it go back to the 30's?
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    In your example, the '07 Altima could have been have had heavy incentives to subprime borrowers. That could be a variable that could cause reliability results to be different between years or even a difference between the 'Nox, and Terrain.

    Great points diesel. But these sorts of things have been pointed out before. I don't think he's going to recognize those as valid arguments and change his mind. If it was valid, then CR ratings might be valid, and we can't have that!
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    I, personally, am hard-pressed to come up with any model names used for more model years than Impala, Malibu, and Camaro--from any manufacturer.

    VW Beetle.

    That doesn't count because Beetle was discontinued for a lot of years, unlike... oh, wait, never mind. :shades:
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,162
    The rear end always bugged me, the light design. The car should have probably just carried the Lumina name (which I think continued on as a mostly fleet queen until 2001),
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    That doesn't count because Beetle was discontinued for a lot of years, unlike... oh, wait, never mind.

    No, the air cooled beetles were made in other countries until 2003, and the New Beetle was already being made at that time. So there was never a break in Beetle production.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Only if you figure "New Beetle" and "Beetle" are the same model. Otherwise, the "Beetle" was just reintroduced with this model.

    And I'm not sure they were called "Beetles" in those other countries. In fact, the actual name of the car was Volkswagen Type 1.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    edited December 2012
    Mustang came out as a 1964.5, so it's very close to Malibu. I think Camaro debuted in 67? Chrysler New Yorker came out in the second half of the 40's post war and ran for a pretty long time as I recall. Since Andre is big on both GM and Chrysler, he could probably say whether it or Impala had more years in existence. I'm thinking new Yorker might actually have the edge. Fun stuff!
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,384
    I remember years ago (based on what I say here Andre could name the year) I was at some town event and there were some classic car guys as part of it. One was a 40s New Yorker. I get talking with them and the conversation quickly turns to how pissed they are at Chrysler who was in the process of shutting down the New Yorker name which, they said, was at that time was the longest running car name.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,384
    Ah. That would have been 1996.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited December 2012
    I think the old names are fine. It's probably the marketing departments trying to justify their existence by telling the executive suite that a flashy new name number will help sell more cars.

    (By the way, I didn't skip up to a Camry but drove my Tercel for 17 years and only sold because we moved and went on the road in the van).

    GM should make Caddy leave the alpha-numeric stuff in the gutter.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    Only if you figure "New Beetle" and "Beetle" are the same model. Otherwise, the "Beetle" was just reintroduced with this model.

    Wouldn't that also hold true with cars like the Malibu?

    The original was rear-wheel drive, but the current model is FWD... Kinda like the Beetle's transformation.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Then that would make Impala the winner. Thanks Fezo!
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    One of the reasons some of these guys use alphanumeric codes instead of names is because it's cheaper. No trademark searching, licensing, or other such stuff required for a CX-5, or a 330i, or an ATS. Wheres Sonic has to be negotiated with Sega. :shades:
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Only if you figure "New Beetle" and "Beetle" are the same model. Otherwise, the "Beetle" was just reintroduced with this model.

    Wouldn't that also hold true with cars like the Malibu?

    Only if the first return of the Malibu was actually "New Malibu." The name of the New Beetle literally was "New Beetle" rather than "Beetle." Which is funny since the literal name of the "Old" Beetle was the "Volkswagen Type 1." "Beetle" was just it's nickname.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    edited December 2012
    Only if you figure "New Beetle" and "Beetle" are the same model. Otherwise, the "Beetle" was just reintroduced with this model.

    Well, beetle, bug, whatever. Certainly the common name and used in ads by VW.

    Given how little similarity there was for different years of other models and makes that shared the same name (Monza, Thunderbird, Cougar, yes even Impala), I think the VW still counts.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    alphanumeric codes instead of names is because it's cheaper.

    Must be Christmas Eve, I'm having a Kodak moment. :shades:
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,101
    edited December 2012
    The Beetle had a much longer hiatus than Chevy Impala, Malibu, or Camaro.

    Wasn't it like 25 years' hiatus in North America? I can't care about the rest of the world if I couldn't buy one in that time period. ;)
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    edited December 2012
    The Beetle had a much longer hiatus than Chevy Impala, Malibu, or Camaro.

    Wasn't it like 25 years' hiatus in North America?

    Isn't Mexico North America? Oh yeah, I forgot, they aren't Americans according to some. :surprise:

    Did GM keep making vehicles called Camaro or Impala when they weren't being sold in the US?

    Seems like the rules are dynamic and change to fit posters' points of view. :P
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    ...to everybody on the board. For all of us, even those with different views, we appreciate the ability to go to Edmunds and converse about automobiles!
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    ...and related topics (well OK, sometimes tangents)! Steve tries to keep us on task, but that ain't always easy. Everyone have a great holiday and new year.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Steve tries to keep us on task, but that ain't always easy. Everyone have a great holiday and new year.

    Yes, we really appreciate Steve, he does a good job!
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,684
    Well, don't get Shiftright started on the "1964.5" Mustang :P Technically, they're all registered as 1965's, and were never advertised as 1964.5's, although there are some differences (generator vs alternator, 170-6 versus 200-6, etc)

    As for the New Yorker, I had to look it up, but that name actually went back to 1939. In 1938, there was a trim level of the Imperial called "New York Special". In 1939, there was a series that was called simply "C23" that had Imperial, New Yorker, and Imperial trim levels, all on a 125" wheelbase, with the Custom Imperials on a bigger 145" wheelbase.

    So, with the exception of 1943-45, the New Yorker nameplate was used without fail from 1939-96.

    Impala was used from 1958-85 the first time around, saw a brief return in 1994-96, and then from 2000-now.

    Another long-lived name was the Olds 98. It started in 1941 as a series designation, but was called the Custom Cruiser 8. For 1946 they called it the Custom Cruiser 98, and then Futuramic 98 for 1948. Simply "98" for 1951, it was spelled out as "Ninety-Eight" starting in 1952 on on up through the end in 19-and-ninety-six.

    LeSabre and Bonneville were also long-lived names, LeSabre spanning from 1959-2005, and Bonneville from 1957-2005.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,101
    edited December 2012
    Heck, there you go being 'exclusive' again, tlong. You left out people in Brazil and all the other countries in South America, as being "Americans". Oh, El Salvador, too, since that's in Central America.

    Everyone knows what "American" means. We can dispute the exactness of it all day, but still...everybody knows what "American" means.

    GM never built the Impala, Camaro, and Malibu in Europe and Mexico. VW did.

    To say that the Beetle name was used more continuously than the names Impala, Malibu, or Camaro, is being intellectually dishonest. I, nor you, could buy a Beetle where we both lived, for as many model years as we could have bought an Impala or Malibu.

    Anybody shopping these last few days of the year for a new-car bargain? I might see what they're giving off on Captivas this week. ;) After all, as someone asked here, is buying all those Mexican Chevys available better than buying all those Japanese-built Toyota models that are available here? Now THAT was bending the discussion to meet someone's very small point of argument!
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  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,684
    I'm about to head out for the typical ho-ho-ho Christmas crap joy with the family. Maybe I'll get lucky and the Park Ave won't start... :shades:
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    Actually...You could buy a Beetle for many of the years it was not being sold in the US, just not at VW dealers.

    The main VW indie shop here was one that participated in an arrangement with some Mexican exporter that shipped Beetles to the US.

    As it was explained to me, it worked like this... The local shop would cut out a section of the floor pan of an out of service (but still titled) Beetle that had the serial # stamped on it and ship it to Mexico, where that piece would be attached to the same location in a new production air cooled Beetle, then shipped here under the guise of being "restored".

    The local guy started selling these here and was initially doing OK for a coupe of years, until VW announced the re-introduction of the modern Beetle. The prices were about the same, so his market quickly dried up.

    I actually saw a red Beetle that he had in his showroom, and it was new in every way, but still the old air cooled design.

    VW had nothing to do with it, but it was a way to get one.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    One of the reasons some of these guys use alphanumeric codes instead of names is because it's cheaper. No trademark searching, licensing, or other such stuff required for a CX-5, or a 330i, or an ATS. Wheres Sonic has to be negotiated with Sega.

    Didn't BMW go after Infinity a few years back in a dispute over the "M" being used by Infinity?

    http://www.autoblog.com/2007/03/20/bmw-beats-infiniti-in-battle-over-m/
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666

    Well, beetle, bug, whatever. Certainly the common name and used in ads by VW.

    My daughter calls them "Buggy"! Back to the future! If she only knew the history of The Bug....

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Maybe I'll get lucky and the Park Ave won't start...

    No such luck! Merry Christmas!

    Regards,
    OW
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,101
    bpizzuti, we agree on something!

    VW themselves referred to it in print as "The New Beetle". No such thing as "The New Impala" or "The New Malibu" or "The New Camaro" in GM ads.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    It's all a game of semantics, so go with the opinion you prefer.

    Ford claims the Mustang has been in constant production since the mid-60's, so I guess Mustang=Mustang II, even if it was clearly a name difference in sales literature, etc.

    Really, if car naming conventions are the biggest thing for one to see as a problem, they have it pretty well-made, IMO...
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,101
    I would admit that after Suburban and Corvette, Mustang is the name that has been used for sale where all of us who post on this forum regularly, live, has been used for the most consecutive years.
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  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Heck, there you go being 'exclusive' again, tlong. You left out people in Brazil and all the other countries in South America, as being "Americans". Oh, El Salvador, too, since that's in Central America.

    You had said North America, which is why I confined my answer to Mexico.

    I actually did pretty well in geography, lol.

    GM never built the Impala, Camaro, and Malibu in Europe and Mexico. VW did.

    :surprise: :surprise: Somehow I don't think that was worded very well.

    The first Impala was 1958. The first Malibu was 1964. The first VW Beetle was 1945; imported into the US in 1949. Call the VWs what you want, they certainly had more brand equity, even today, than any Impala or Malibu.

    You very originally said "Chevrolet is using the names Impala, Malibu, Camaro, Corvette, Suburban, and Silverado, names they were using 35 years ago."

    Well VW was using the Bug/Beetle name even longer ago. No mention of countries or disruptions in production. That was the entire point, you're now throwing in not-previously-mentioned things like country of sale, or breaks in production. LOL.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    VW had nothing to do with it, but it was a way to get one.

    I suspect restored-but-new doesn't fit the ever-changing and unknowable rules, either. :P
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    VW themselves referred to it in print as "The New Beetle". No such thing as "The New Impala" or "The New Malibu" or "The New Camaro" in GM ads.

    Too bad we didn't get the "New GM" instead of the "Same Old GM".

    Really, what has changed in any significant way, other than shedding a division or two?
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    edited December 2012
    The first Impala was 1958. The first Malibu was 1964. The first VW Beetle was 1945; imported into the US in 1949. Call the VWs what you want, they certainly had more brand equity, even today, than any Impala or Malibu.

    You very originally said "Chevrolet is using the names Impala, Malibu, Camaro, Corvette, Suburban, and Silverado, names they were using 35 years ago."

    Well VW was using the Bug/Beetle name even longer ago. No mention of countries or disruptions in production. That was the entire point, you're now throwing in not-previously-mentioned things like country of sale, or breaks in production. LOL.

    It's important to remember (at least, in a discussion about long-running US availability of models) why the Beetle disappeared of so long.

    The consistency of design over the years led to decreased sales, as the Japanese offered suitable competition (in design, pricing, etc.) in the US, and emissions standards were getting more and more difficult for an air-cooled engine to meet.

    From: http://autouniversum.wordpress.com/2009/06/22/end-of-an-era-the-last-air-cooled-- automobile-engines/

    The Citroën GS engine would prove to be the last automotive air-cooled engine. With the increasing emphasis on low emissions, fuel efficiency, larger displacements and heat producing ancillaries; air-cooling was no longer an option. Air-cooled engines traditionally ran slightly rich to reduce combustion temperatures. Unfortunately, this both reduces fuel efficiency and increases hydrocarbon emissions. In addition, the cooling system of most modern cars has to cope not only with engine heat, but the heat generated by the air conditioning condenser and power steering and transmission fluids. These additional loads tip the balance well in favour of a liquid cooling system. Finally, it is quite difficult to design a multi-valve cylinder head for an air-cooled engine as space quickly runs out for adequate fin sizing and airflow.

    From Wikipedia...

    The Volkswagen Beetle, officially called the Volkswagen Type 1 (or informally the Volkswagen Bug), is an economy car produced by the German auto maker Volkswagen (VW) from 1938 until 2003. With over 21 million manufactured[6] in an air-cooled, rear-engined, rear-wheel drive configuration, the Beetle is the longest-running and most-manufactured car of a single design platform, worldwide.


    Other names the Beetle was known as...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_names_for_the_Volkswagen_Type_1
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,101
    edited December 2012
    We're rehashing the same old argument we always have, tlong.

    Virtually all (if not absolutely all) of the regular posters on this board are American.

    The hard fact is, one could not buy a VW Beetle in America for at least 25 years.

    And for all the b******* on this board about the Impala having no brand equity, there are a looooooottttttt of people who disagree with you.

    And that's fine, of course.

    And it wasn't me who originated 'breaks in production' in this discussion. Look back several farther back than mine, and the 'break in production' argument was brought up by others in the mention of Impala and Malibu and Camaro. I bring up that one couldn't buy a Beetle for 25 years in the country most of us here live in, and then it's a problem.

    Whew. I can get this talking to my in-laws. ;)

    I'm off to look at Mexican Chevys in inventory at my dealer. No, not really. Because I won't be able to find one in all probability.

    Back to Beetle...because the Beetle was sold in places that had no or lower safety standards than in our country...and GM did not sell Chevrolets there like VW sold Beetles...VW is to be commended for keeping that model name there? Again, you, I, and nobody else I regularly converse with on this board could have bought a new one from VW for at least twenty-five years. That is beyond dispute.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    The hard fact is, one could not buy a VW Beetle in America for at least 25 years.

    First, Merry Christmas uplander. Hopefully you got some good presents (a classic Studebaker under the tree?!).

    You're correct that you couldn't buy a Beetle from VW in the UNITED STATES for 25 years. But you could in America. ;)

    Of course, this is far afield from the original comment, that Impala and Malibu are names that have been around longer than others. Which I think we've all agreed upon is not true. But we can agree they've been around a long time. And kudos to GM for still having them.

    Now I'd say that while the Malibu still has some cachet, it's a shame that they've relegated a great former nameplate like Impala to being a rental queen. And the new Malibu is not that great; even GM is scrambling to do a faster update. But I do wonder what they were thinking, given their near-death experience. You'd think somebody in that company would be saying "the 2010 Malibu was pretty good, is the new model clearly better? And if not, we can't sell it until it is...". It's like they had some motivation originally, and then ran out of steam, or took their eyes off the ball. Which is why many posters still don't see GM looking like it "gets it".
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    I can't care about the rest of the world if I couldn't buy one in that time period.

    Actually you could. Given enough money you can buy anything from anyone anywhere.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Which is why I didn't mention BMW's M line, or Infinity now calling everything a "Q" (which avoids trademark issues but is just silly).
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