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GM News, New Models and Market Share

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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    When Sperlich and Iacocca say they were influenced by the Monza, and folks here still won't accept that, I guess it's time to move on!
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    only the Rogue and Tiguan are truly undersized.

    Stuff I've been reading lately indicates that younger buyers want smaller vehicles though. Younger as in their 40s.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    They do, and a whole new class of smaller crossovers has popped up:

    Buick Verano
    Mitsubishi Outlander Sport
    Nissan Juke
    Subaru XV Crosstrek
    Infiniti EX35
    BMW X1

    Coming soon: Q3, many others.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Quick response to the Leaf's price cut:

    For the next generation Volt, Reuss said GM can take out "thousands of dollars" in costs through better design of the battery pack and electric motors

    Read more: http://www.autonews.com/article/20130116/OEM09/130119836#ixzz2ILYQM4td
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    the 21 billion is not lost. whatever part of it that the union recipients of that money don't spend may be subjected to the 55% death tax.

    Wow, to be crying about $21B, almost 5 years later, that went to a company that sold $250B a year worth of vehicles that generated $21B in tax revenues in one good year is amazing. Then throw in the fact that we borrow $4B per day from China to pay for things like to have Islamist books put in 800 libraries around the country. Yes, that was PER DAY.
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    They kept 2 parts from the old one. The air filter and one other part.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    edited January 2013
    We don't have rear-engine, air-cooled family sedans any more because other layouts work better. VW has also abandoned this configuration for its passenger cars...

    Emissions restrictions killed the mass-produced air cooled automobile engines far more than anything else.
  • keystonecarfankeystonecarfan Member Posts: 181
    I guess that is because Hal Sperlich and Lee Iacocca were just two guys who worked at Ford in the early 1960s. What do they know?
  • keystonecarfankeystonecarfan Member Posts: 181
    edited January 2013
    They also didn't work all that well with air conditioning.

    At any rate, other European manufacturers, such as Fiat and Renault, were abandoning the rear-engine layout in the late 1960s and early 1970s, before VW did, in favor of cars clearly inspired by the Austin Mini.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    They also didn't work all that well with air conditioning.

    Well, to be honest, very few cars in the early 1960's had air conditioning that worked very well.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    I guess that is because Hal Sperlich and Lee Iacocca were just two guys who worked at Ford in the early 1960s. What do they know?

    LMAO!

    They couldn't possibly know as much as the many armchair industry experts here!
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Oh, no doubt that Malibu has been a sales disappointment. Is it a horrible car as many have said or implied here? I don't think so. There are worse choices that have been highly recommended here.

    No, the Malibu is not a terrible car. It's an ok car in a field with much better competition. I see continuing acceptance of mediocrity. Why is that ok? I never see an answer to this question.

    The USA isn't going to excel by being mediocre.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    Buying American (built in U.S., by a U.S. based company with a long U.S. history and a dealer network I trust) means more to me than some of that other stuff. Styling does too. That kind of thing is an individual choice and not reliant on what a handful of car writers have to say.

    That said, the Malibu needs more legroom in the back. Admitted.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    748k in the US, 29k in Canada, for an airbag issue.

    Honda said some driver's side airbags were may have been installed without some of the rivets that secure the airbag's plastic cover. If the rivets are missing, the airbag may not deploy properly

    Read more: http://www.autonews.com/article/20130118/OEM11/301189790#ixzz2IMm6lCtF
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    http://www.freep.com/article/20130118/NEWS15/130118050/1014/rss13

    Looks like they'll sell the rest of the shares off in the next year or so.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    When I mention 'sales', I get 'ah, that's not the most important thing, it's how the mags rate the car'. When I mention that a mag rates the Malibu as better than quite a few of the Asian and German competition, the response is, 'ah, it's about sales'.

    Exhausting.


    It isn't about you. :) It's about the reviews the 'Bu got and GM knows they blew it...in many more ways then rear seat room!

    Conversely, the Chevrolet Malibu also shows how far GM has to go in some segments. At this year’s Car of the Year event, we had some of the heaviest hitters in the midsize sedan category out for evaluation, and the Malibu was literally crushed by the weight of new Accord, Fusion, and Altima. Its engine/transmission was underpowered and lazy, its steering was vague and suspension unsettled and its interior (at least the car we had at the event) was no match for its competitors. To put it bluntly, it simply cannot compete with the best the segment has to offer. We hear now that Chevrolet is rushing changes to the Malibu much as Honda did with the Civic. Let’s hope it helps, because the present Malibu is going to need all the massaging it can get to stay off the rental car lots.

    The point is why did this happen? It' doesn't matter how many more cars some blindly buy from GM. It's about how GM looses market share despite the rescue package.

    That Ram could win N.A. Truck of the Year won Truck of the Year shows even more weakness for GM sales going forward.

    The woods are lovely, dark, and deep,
    But I have promises to keep,
    And miles to go before I sleep,
    And miles to go before I sleep.


    GM needs to wake up first, methinks! :P

    Regards,
    GM
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    Three quarter million Odys recalled

    Post topic and content are about a Honda "exclusively". What is the connection to GM or a GM brand or model? Can see a post here about Honda, but only if there is a comparison to GM and pros and cons, compariosn of each brand/model.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    Well, I guess it comes down to, do you believe MT or CR, because their opinions differ on midsize cars.

    GM won North American Car of the Year, and Chrysler won the truck. Could it be that the 2014 GM trucks...aren't out/available for sale yet? The '14 'Vette won 'best of show', but not 'Car of the Year'. Doesn't 'Car of the Year' typically mean...something that people can buy?

    Ford won neither category, BTW.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    edited January 2013
    I, personally, don't get hung up on 'topic drift' or a razor-straight interpretation of a topic. Frankly, other makes get mentioned here all the time. If it's good, it's mentioned here...if not so good, and in the context of other vehicles, it's OK to post here too. I don't think anybody's head is going to spin around because a negative post about Honda is posted here.

    How 'bout this: Honda had a very large recall today. GM had none today.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    I don't mind Honda getting bashed. Frankly, lately (the last few years) they've deserved it.

    I think the transmission problem is overblown though, as most Accords are sold with 4 cylinder engines, and those had no issues. I'm sure Chrysler's historical transmission failure rate makes Honda's look modest in comparison.

    The first good things I've seen from Honda since 2002 are the 2013 Civic and Accord new models.

    It looks like they are getting back on track with those.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    The Monza debuted in the spring of 1960 and for the time, it was considered to be a "sporty," as opposed to a "sports," car.

    According to Wiki, the early Corvair line "competed with imported cars such as the original Volkswagen Beetle, as well as the Ford Falcon and the Plymouth Valiant, new entries in a market segment that was established in the U.S. by the Nash[1] and Rambler American."

    By no stretch of the imagination can anybody consider that the Beetle, Falcon, Valiant, Nash or Rambler were sports or sporty cars. Corvair offerings were 4-door, 2-door, station wagon, van and a convertible.

    In contrast, the roots of the production 1964.5 Ford Mustang was the mid-engine, 2-seat roadster. A sports car. Thus, Mustang genealogy as a sports car, the Corvair an economy car.

    Ford executives no doubt realized a new untapped market segment of sports or sporty cars and thus the development of the prototype Mustang I in 1961 and a working model driven at the U.S. Grand Prix in 1962. They discarded the mid-engine two seater as a production idea due to probable very limited buyer interest in this configuration. The front engine, rear drive, 4 passenger configuration was chosen for production due to parts availability and simplicity of engineering and likely broad appeal. Not a rear engine, rear drive as on Corvair. Ford's design decision was a home run. The Corvair design, in the long history of GM, has to be considered a flop. It was never repeated again by GM till this day in 2013.

    The first Mustang design is completely different from the Corvair design. Corvair did not influence the Mustang. Not in design, nor marketting.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    Corvair did not influence the Mustang. Not in design, nor marketting.

    Do you know who Hal Sperlich and Lee Iacocca are? They are the two guys most responsible for the Mustang as we know it. And they say they were influenced by the Corvair Monza.

    I don't know how else to say it.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    I'm going to have to 100% agree with Xrunner2 here, and categorically state all you others are 100% wrong.

    First, quoting or relying on former Big 3 Auto Execs is like quoting or relying upon data from nitwits, retards, and other mentally challenged individuals. The Big 3 auto execs are about as incompetent a group as has ever been in place in corporate America. Wait, no, I take that back, they are the most incompetent.

    Big 3 auto executives don't know or understand the auto industry, and they certainly don't know or understand what they say, what they have said, or what they will say in the future.

    Frankly, a bunch of monkeys could have done a better job making decisions by throwing darts at a board.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    I'll get in trouble for saying this, but you fellas are divorced from reality in this particular issue.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    I, personally, don't get hung up on 'topic drift' or a razor-straight interpretation of a topic.

    Topic drift is quite different from a "first" post "Title" of "Three quarter million Odys recalled", don't ya think?
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    Hal Sperlich and Lee Iacocca

    Two immense failures in my opinion.

    Way overrated.

    Short term smarts maybe, but long term failures. No vision.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    edited January 2013
    Perhaps, but they were the two guys most responsible for the original Mustang. And guess what? They say they were influenced by the Monza.

    Another reality check is needed here.

    I'm not even a Ford guy, but to call the two guys most responsible for the original Mustang, and the one guy who came up with the FWD minivan concept, overrated...is almost catatonic.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    edited January 2013
    >Post topic and content are about a Honda "exclusively".

    All some posters come here to do is post about how wonderful (perfect?) Honda and toyota and other carmakers are compared to GM. Over and over and over to the point of making the topic boring and probably threatening to any newcomers looking in. Why would they want to return to a topic about GM where all they see is kvetching about GM's car is missing the same number of cupholders compared to the currect car with a halo on it.

    So a post about what the other car companies are doing and experiencing is just a reality check here. GM didn't have a major recall of merit and Honda has yet another problem.

    The topic, GM News, New Models, and Market Share, was a switch from the earlier titling which served as nothing more than a target for the GM haters because of their many sins in the past years (GM's sins, not the posters, :grin). I think including information about the competition so richly served up on a warm platter so much of the time is perfect here for the content being allowed to be included. Now if the topic were held to reasonably positive and useful information about GM, the new models, and the market share, I could see being concerned about inclusion of the full world of information about other companies out there.

    There's a topic here, GM Fans , which is clearly positive, but few want to go there to post. So it is what it is.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited January 2013
    All some posters come here to do is post about how wonderful (perfect?) Honda and toyota and other carmakers are compared to GM.

    Well gee, Toyota did take the US Crown last year. :blush:

    Honda is off to the early lead for 2013 glory.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Buying American (built in U.S., by a U.S. based company with a long U.S. history and a dealer network I trust) means more to me than some of that other stuff.

    I think we both want the same thing - a stronger U.S. We just see different paths to that end. You see support of local manufacturing and economy. I see supporting the strongest manufacturer who is making in the US, with less concern for the ownership of the company. I think supporting weakness is detrimental in the long run, which is also why I opposed the bailouts. Letting the strong survive and the weak die off is how the economy stays healthy. But I do understand and appreciate your perspective.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    edited January 2013
    All some posters come here to do is post about how wonderful (perfect?) Honda and toyota and other carmakers are compared to GM. Over and over and over to the point of making the topic boring and probably threatening to any newcomers looking in

    Honestly, this is a bit of a warped characterization. I see you calling all the other makes perfect as if in a sarcastic way, even though I rarely to never see actual other posters doing that. It seems more like your overrepresentation.

    Haven't I also seen you try to correct off-topic posters? Yet it's ok when it's a negative Honda report. ;) :surprise:
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    I think fintail guessed that Ford realized a market opportunity for a entirely new class of automobiles after Corvair was introduced. That is fair to say. MARKET OPPORTUNITY. But, Ford did not follow in the class that Corvair tried to create. Ford invented an entirely new class, the Pony Car.

    Therefore, to say that some do that Corvair in any way influenced and inspired the program of Ford from conception of a real type sports car and prototype in 1961, mid engine roadster Mustang I, to the eventual production model is absurd.

    Now, one could make the argument that the Mustang introduced in Spring, 1964 caused GM to realize a market opportunity of Pony Cars and they responded with Camaro and Firebird for model year 1967. And, that would be correct.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Some people's problem is that they don't like the fact that GM isn't considered the class of the world. The solution to that problem, however, is to wish for GM to improve, not to run around complaining that the competition exists.

    GM is quite capable of standing up to criticism and responding to it. Look at how fast they're redesigning the Malibu once they feel pressure. The problem is not criticism, criticism is a positive thing, it indicates where improvement is needed. Problems happen when you shield someone from criticism, because then they never improve, nor see the need.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    Did you open Steve's link? ;)
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Yep, And one day GM can be as good as Toyota, and recall so many vehicles BEFORE they fall apart. :P
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    GM has a lot of work to do to catch up with Toyota being the "Recall King"--and I shouldn't quote this without knowing for sure (although that never stops anybody else here)--I believe it has been for three years straight.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    >Toyota did take the US Crown last year.

    >Honda is off to the early lead

    There is good and bad in all cars. Some have a little more of one or the other, but they all put their wheels on one lugnut at a time and the stores all have service departments in back. A local store of a brand of high reliability reputation advertises how many repair bays they have now in their repair shop. Odd. They don't need all those just for oil changes for the folks who think they have to take their xxx brand back to the xxx store for oil changes.

    GM has repair bays as well.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    edited January 2013
    That is how I see it. Sure, the Monza opened some eyes to the potential of a small affordable sporty (in looks, anyway) American car. But I was thinking engineering/design wise, or even market position, where there is no influence at all. Not bashing the Corvair, they are interesting cars, but I don't think it has any influence on the pony cars other than maybe planting a seed in someone's mind.

    I see original Monza buyers as being unconventional and being car enthusiasts. I see original Mustang buyers as virtually anyone - who wanted something cool looking and affordable. The former has a much smaller demographic.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    Toyota starts settling lawsuits over unintended acceleration.

    "LOS ANGELES – Toyota Motor Corp. has settled what was to be the first in a group of hundreds of pending wrongful death and injury lawsuits involving sudden, unintended acceleration by Toyota vehicles, a company spokesman said Thursday.

    "Toyota reached the agreement in the case brought by the family of Paul Van Alfen and Charlene Jones Lloyd, spokeswoman Celeste Migliore said. They were killed when their Toyota Camry slammed into a wall in Utah in 2010.

    "Migliore declined to disclose the financial terms."
    ...
    'The Van Alfen case was to be the first of those tried, and to serve as a bellwether for the rest. It had been set to go to trial in February."

    Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2013/01/18/toyota-settles-first-hundreds-wrongful- -death-suits-involving-unintended/#ixzz2INyEXdZ8

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • fho2008fho2008 Member Posts: 393
    "Weird indeed. GM has never again put in production any US vehicle with a rear engine, rear drive layout."

    Surprised nobody beat me to this.......so what was the Fiero then?
  • js06gvjs06gv Member Posts: 456
    Wondered the same thing when I saw that, until I remembered that the Fiero was mid-engined.

    2019 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2019 Ford Mustang GT Premium, 2016 Kia Optima SX, 2013 Ford F-150 King Ranch, 2000 Pontiac Trans Am WS6, 2001 Kawasaki Vulcan 800 Classic

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited January 2013
    Wow, I've officially been accused of anti-import brand bias. :D

    As for being on topic, I post GM news ALL the time and get few responses. You missed my last few.
  • fho2008fho2008 Member Posts: 393
    Oh it had a "cargo area" that could hold what behind the engine? I seem to remember it might fit something very small.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    I seem to remember it might fit something very small.

    Some groceries or a small duffel bag is about all that would fit behind the engine. Or ideally a fire extinguisher;)

    I remember the spare was stored under the hood and IIRC, it had a decent amount of storage room up front. I had a friend who had an '84 2M4 in HS and another who's dad had an '87 GT. I have drive both. The GT was fun, the 2m4 was bad other than looks.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "Last month, the U.S. Treasury sold 200 million shares of common stock back to GM for $5.5 billion and announced its plan to sell the remainder by April 2014. As of now, the government owns a 19% stake in the company.

    It's still not known how much the investment will end up costing taxpayers. GM paid $27.50 each for the 200 million shares last month. If the remaining shares were sold at that price, it would still mean a $12.6-billion loss on the GM investment.

    But GM shares have been trading above that mark recently -- they closed at $29.28 Friday."

    U.S. starts plan to sell rest of GM shares (Detroit Free Press)
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    That is how I see it. Sure, the Monza opened some eyes to the potential of a small affordable sporty (in looks, anyway) American car. But I was thinking engineering/design wise, or even market position, where there is no influence at all. Not bashing the Corvair, they are interesting cars, but I don't think it has any influence on the pony cars other than maybe planting a seed in someone's mind.

    I see original Monza buyers as being unconventional and being car enthusiasts. I see original Mustang buyers as virtually anyone - who wanted something cool looking and affordable. The former has a much smaller demographic.


    It's all from one's perspective, IMO.

    What the Corvair DID do was to identify a market segment of some significant size that was willing to buy a non-traditional product, at least domestic-wise. Of course, one can make an excellent argument that Beetle owners had already uncovered this market. So, when former Ford executives claim influence from the Corvair, this could be what they mean.

    Both would be correct, depending upon how one wants to define the parameters.

    So, IMO, the significant influence (the amount can be debated forever) the Corvair had was on the vision car makers had on what folks were willing to buy. It seems pretty clear to me that the mechanicals were so far apart that the Corvair had no impact on the Mustang design, from a purely functional standpoint.

    One should remember that car companies are basically the same as Hollywood, in that once a new "theme" of interest becomes apparent, everyone scrambles to duplicate a product to fit the demand, until the market is completely over-saturated.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    We taxpayers subsidize the Chevrolet Volt by $7500 per car. How long will that go on? What about the new Cadillac Volt? Will that be subsidized also?

    It is time to remove the subsidy and let the free market decide the worth/value of these Volts. Let GM raise prices on its line of other vehicles to provide its own subsidy funds for the Volt development and production costs.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    So, IMO, the significant influence (the amount can be debated forever) the Corvair had was on the vision car makers had on what folks were willing to buy. It seems pretty clear to me that the mechanicals were so far apart that the Corvair had no impact on the Mustang design, from a purely functional standpoint.

    Well stated.

    I would offer that beside "willing", Ford had combined that with "excitement". People were excited about Mustang upon its introduction and for many months afterwards. Demand far exceeded Ford sales forecasts.
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