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Honda? Recall. Say it's not true. :P
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I think that image is perpetuated by some who want to talk only about an older GM in negative way and some by not having had a definite enough advertising break with the Old GM before the administration reformulated it.
I think that there is an advertising gap and a perception that the leaders of GM, when they do show up on a program or article, tend to be older than some of the other faces in the news for other companies.
Although I don't have the numbers, seems like I've read that the average age of BMW buyers is a lot younger than Caddy buyers. And we don't even need to talk Buick. I also suspect that Honda/Hyundai buyers are younger on average than Chevrolet. Clearly the opinions of those in this forum or the ages of the execs aren't the major reason why GM's buying demographic is older. I don't think it's going to help GM to pass it all off as older execs. I'm not seeing them do enough to revers the age issue, which will be continuingly important to GM's long term success as the population ages.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5682995-Average-Age-of-Car-Buyers-by-B- rand-Average-Age-of-New-Car-Buyers
Those actual data confirm what I was saying about GM and the age demographic.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Kudos to Buick for bringing their age down so far. Hopefully they can continue that.
Chevy may be the same as Hyundai but they are also the same as Toyota, a company known for the older demographic. Honda's is surprisingly similar; I don't think that would have been the case 10 years ago, but their offerings have become more conservative, which is why many people (including me) feel that Honda has lost its way. They've also been working on turning that around.
This pains me to say, as an auto investor that happens to love his 2010 Mustang GT, but I must give credit where credit is due. The recently remodeled Camaro is one awesome looking ride, and consumers agree -- the Camaro has topped the Mustang for three straight years in U.S. unit sales.
The trend lines are improving for both, which should bode well for their sales and brand image, as the overall market improves. We'll see if these two muscle car juggernauts battle it out for sales like in the '70s and '80s, but for now Camaro has the edge. However, before you get too worked up, during the 42 years when both models were produced, the Mustang has won the sales title 31 times to the Camaro's 11. :shades:
Go Mustang!
Regards,
OW
This is now, that was then.
Honestly, I wouldn't buy either and even as a teenager I considered the Camaro just too impractical. I was looking at Monte Carlos (OK, I'm more mature now) and Malibus and new '75 Nova Customs and LN's...and a Vega GT and Monza 2+2 or two.
Dang.. that's a lopsided scoreboard! And we chose to bailout the one that scored 11 points instead of the guys that scored 31? Strange!
One can go back and look at the last few decades and recall that it was mainly the senior citizens who were driving Buicks and Cadillacs. Not much has changed if one observes who is driving these today. Could be that buyers of the early Camaros and Firebirds are probably now seniors and have moved up to Buick and Cadillac. Being that the next decade will see millions of baby boomers aging into seniors, GM will be positioned properly with their Buick and Cadillac offerings when these folks start cashing in their 401's and IRA's.
I think you are making a bigger deal out of this for most of the GM brands than it actually is, then again you seem to have an axe to graind with GM ( and you have every right to do so) and seem to think any small difference against GM shows that they are horrible ( that is the tone your messages have to me anyway, it may not be you intention though).
Also, if something is bought as part of a fleet, how is its buyer age factored in, I wonder? There's some Zipcar-like company in DC that bought a whole bunch of Smarts for their customers to use.
Also, I'm surprised to see how close together all those average ages really are. 47 to 60 isn't really that big of a spread. Basically, that means your average buyer, regardless of make, is a Baby Boomer. It would be interesting to see the breakouts for individual models, though.
And, Buick has done an incredible job of bringing down their average buyer age. I remember back in 2003, when MSN autos used to show average age in their listings, the Regal was something like 57, but I think the LeSabre was 67, while the Park Ave and Century were 70! I think the Rendezvous was around 45-48 though.
This is now!
In other GM recall news, NHTSA is expanding a previous 2012 Buick Verano, 2012 Chevrolet Cruze and 2012 Chevrolet Sonic airbag recall to include the 2012 Chevrolet Camaro. :P
Regards,
OW
The affected vehicles were built from December 6, 2011 through January 15, 2013.
Somebody must have been attending to many holiday parties;)
Uplander, IMO, this is how a vehicle can have varying reliability ratings from year to year. A recall like this is only due to a safety issue. What else could have been missed from the factory which simply was passed on to the dealer to fix under warranty. I'm not pointing this directly at GM as I think it applies to any manufacturer.
That's what they call "heritage." :shades:
That surprised me too.
They talk about how kids aren't buying cars, but part of it is that kids often can only afford used cars.
My in-laws sold their Bimmer when they moved up here to the boonies and started buying Buicks. They had a friend who traded every 3 years, so they would buy his old one and then sell their car to someone else. All those folks in that hand-me-down chain were over 70, otherwise the average would have popped up, lol.
Similarly, older people usually buy less often anyway, at least in my experience. Many of them have probably seen nest eggs drop, pensions get reduced, health care costs go up, etc. So, they're probably buying less often, too. And, since the cars usually don't wear out like they used to, there's often no need to.
Toyota up 26%
Honda up 13%
GM up 16%
Ford up 22%
Chrysler up 16%
Sales rate over 15 million.
Doesn't look like Toyota is being hurt by the recall mess.
For Ford, both the Fusion and Escape had great months. Over 22k Fusions sold and 19k Escapes.
Malibu sales are improving a bit to over 15k sold in January.
A recall is never a positive thing (despite what bpizzuti has said! LOL), but GM's numbers are certainly waaaayyyyy smaller than Toyota's and Honda's of recent time.
Me too, and I was stupid to do so. The last thing anyone should do with a low to negative net worth (I was negative as I had school loans and a little bit of credit card debt) is buy a new car.
Honestly, as my net worth has increased my desire to spend money on a new car has decreased. I haven't purchased a brand new vehicle since 2001 and I may never buy another new vehicle.
I went shopping for new Suburbans and Expeditions the other day. What I found on the lots were near $60k. Why in the world would I spend $50-55k+ when I can buy an 1-2 year old used model for $30-35k?
Though it does depend. With 4wd pickups and certain cars, the spread between new and used isn't so great.
I graduated college with no debt and was working within 3 1/2 mos. at a 'real' job. My folks had given me their bright-red three-year old '77 Impala coupe (with the wraparound back window), but I still wanted a new car. I told them their graduation gift enabled me to buy a new car as I couldn't have afforded one without the trade-in. I had my dealer search around and I bought a new, V8 (unusual for '81) Monte Carlo, factory two-tone light jade hood and roof over dark jade everything else, positraction, FM radio, intermittent wipers, and no air. I thought I had arrived!
Example. We purchased a new boat last summer. At the end of the season when I was having it serviced and winterize the mechanic called me and told me water had entered the bellow which covers the u-joints and gimbal bearing. Well Mercruiser replaced the whole assembly and bearing.
The drive design hasn't changed it's in several years, but in 2012 my dealer had seen the same problem on several boats with the same drive which they had rarely seen in the past on the same drive. For some reason the clamps were faulty and didn't create a good seal. This is a problem that popped up in 2012 that wasn't a problem previously and likely isn't a problem for 2013.
Look at this particular recall for GM
JAN 02, 2013
Model Affected:
2013 Chevrolet Silverado
Summary:
General Motors (GM) is recalling certain model year 2013 Cadillac Escalade, Escalade ESV, and Escalade EXT; Chevrolet Avalanche, Express, Silverado HD, Silverado LD, Suburban, and Tahoe; and GMC Savana, Sierra HD, Sierra LD, Yukon, and Yukon XL vehicles, manufactured between November 7, 2012, through December 18, 2012, for failing to comply with the requirements of Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard (FMVSS) No. 102, "Transmission Shift Lever Sequence, Starter Interlock, and Transmission Braking Effect", and FMVSS No. 114, "Theft Protection and Rollaway Prevention." The vehicles may have been built with a fractured park lock cable or a malformed steering column lock actuator gear in the lock module assembly.
These vehicles have essentially gone unchanged since 07, how is it possible this problem came up and only affects those built between Nov. 7th and Dec. 18th.
We only see things like this that affect safety. You're trying convince me that the same type of issues can't happen to the quality/reliability of thousands of various parts and components that make up an automobile.
It hasn't been uncommon for my wife to have new grads work for her that continue to live at home for a few years and/or drive cheap or fairly old cars. Were not talking minimum wage as her new hires start at over $135k/yr plus bonus and overtime. I think it has a lot to do with different priorities.
OTOH one of her other young employees just bought a new Audi A8. Neat car.
I graduated in '94 and that mild recession had me convinced at the time I'd never find a job or ever afford a house. I still vividly recall worrying about having to move back home and stock grocery shelves just to make my student load payments. Thankfully I received a few offers and accepted a position a few week prior to graduation.
I bet that buyer is a good 10+ years younger than their current median age.
In the late 80s my wife worked with a recent grad who lived at home. After making the truck payment she didn't have enough left over for rent.
"General Motors handed the reins of its struggling European business to a veteran Volkswagen executive."
GM gives reins of European business to veteran VW exec (Detroit Free Press)
Sounds like a good poach.
I think as someone once posted here, that the difference between a half-red circle and a half-black circle isn't nearly what it used to be.
I don't understand why it's not obvious that a bad batch of key parts could do this. Look at Boeing and the 787... some planes in service a year with no battery problems, then two in two weeks. Could be a bad batch of batteries. And given that it has grounded the plane, I'd give the 2012 model year a black dot....
I often look at service bulletins, and they are usually for the start of a production run up to a point, not starting in the middle of a production run and ending sometime later (e.g., unless there's a new engine or trans or other major feature, there is rarely a service bulletin I've seen that starts only after that product has been out for a while).
I don't think you look very hard. Took me 5 minutes to find an example. Though the majority of TSBs I looked through don't give a model year range.
2011 Chevrolet Silverado 1500 Electrical System Service Bulletin 333142
NHTSA: Action Number: 10044124 Service Bulletin Number: 333142
Report Date:
Mar 01, 2011
Component:
Electrical System
Summary: General motors: due to the parasitic drain/discharge on 2011 vehicles and trucks, a no crank/no start and dead battery would occur. Cadillac sts and chevrolet volt not included. *pe
Here is one for Ford
2009 Ford Expedition Air Bags Service Bulletin 316523
NHTSA: Action Number: 10038965 Service Bulletin Number: 316523
Report Date:
Apr 01, 2011
Component:
Air Bags
Summary: Comm-trans lund: some 2009-2011 models may have the air bag inicator flashing with a stored trouble code.
Hmm, the Expedition has been unchanged since '07.
CTS
2011 Cadillac Cts Suspension Service Bulletin 315969
NHTSA: Action Number: 10038765 Service Bulletin Number: 315969
Report Date:
May 01, 2011Component:
Suspension
Summary: Gm: 2011 cadillac cts. There is a wine or hum noise coming from the rear differential assembly and there is a procedure to fix it. *rm
The big 3 are obviously the masters of accepting anything and everything without regard to QC or QA.
Ironically my BIL works for a tool and die company in Michigan that sells tooling and dies to the big 3 and most of the transplants.
He still claims the dies he sells to the Asian plants (Honda and Toyota) require far tighter tolerances than the domestic makers, he should know as he works in sales. I have no way to verify, but that's what he keeps telling me.
I won't diss on GM here since I haven't sampled any in a while. But having Fords I'd say that's pretty much the case overall. I think their reliability has improved overall but quality and fit-n-finish still leave a lot to be desired.
As I've mentioned in the past my wife's '11 Taurus looks like it was assembled by 8 year olds.
Not my experience in the slightest.
Also, if there is a TSB that usually means the problems affects quite a few vehicles.
I don't, because there is a spectrum of problem levels, and there has to be SOME cutoff between "avoid" and not. So it's not surprising that any year to year variation could put something on one side one year, but not on another.
And yes, I know you won't change your mind. But some people will understand this point of view and feel differently. :P
Of course, I do believe running improvements are made in subsequent years and new problems arise with new technology installed.
So then you admit changes in reliability can occur, and since there has to be some boundary between "avoid" and not avoid, you agree with my point even though you won't admit it! :shades:
And no, I still don't believe a 2011 Juke is much worse than average while a 2012 is much better than average.
Don't forget that "average" is compared to other models". So one model year may have better or worse vehicles to compare to - a competitor could have switched from a very problematic model to a much better redesign, or the opposite. But I know that doesn't change *some* opinions, either. :surprise:
Then he hired lawyers to write the fine print on their warranty.
LOL