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So then you admit changes in reliability can occur, and since there has to be some boundary between "avoid" and not avoid, you agree with my point even though you won't admit it!
Yes...when there is a major technological change (e.g., engine, trans, etc.) in a vehicle in its cycle, I admit that. However, I can't believe that a 2009 Cobalt equipped exactly like my '08, would be any more or less reliable. Incidentally, I work with a guy who has had more than one Cobalt equipped just like mine (except no ABS)--he puts high miles on them. He and I have similar real-world experience, no matter the year...because there weren't any true significant changes made to the car through the years.
Same exact car, but the average mpg can fluctuate 10% or more even with a large sample and comparing same-generation cars.
'10 Cobalt gets almost 30 mpg while the '09 gets 28.
'10 Malibu gets 24.4 mpg while the '09 gets 26.4.
Did the 2010 Malibu get a major downgrade? I doubt it.
As they say "it's the product, stupid".
Amen. :shades:
So, which ones cost more? The "Little 3" are obviously trying to cut every little penny where it should actually be investing more dollars.
More signs of "Old GM".
Thank you for the insight on the tools and the true view of the TSB's defining quality variations.
BTW, did I mention the 2003 Denali I traded had to have the rear diff. changed? I met the salesman at the local store and he said the manager was madder than Hell! Apparently just another thing wrong with that GM Lemon!
Regards,
OW
I'm sure someone out there has had a Cobalt lemon. Seems like many have had varying problems with their Cobalts on the forums. You'd think everyone would have the same experience with their Cobalts as you have. That's simply not the case. Some cars have problems and some do not. I don't doubt for whatever reason more problems could crop up in '09 vs. an '08. It's possible, we can debate the likelyhood, but you simply can't say it's not a possibility.
I don't know what issue was with CR and the Juke. But the only difference I saw was the electrical system was rated solid black in '11 and solid red in '12. Major engine was average in '11 and 1/2 red in '12.
I don't doubt the '12 could be better than the '11. Why do many claim to avoid the first model year of a vehicle? They seem to be the most trouble some anytime you look up the ratings. That must mean some minor changes are made in subsequent years to improve them. Well except for intermediate steering shafts. I think it took GM over 10 years to take care of that issue;)
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I've worked in a few service and parts departments and have seen first hand how a part or component that hasn't appeared to change have varying degrees of reliability and quality over the course of its production life. That's why you see recalls and TSBs for certain years of a product that hasn't appeared to change in many years and sometime you need a serial number besides a model and year to get a replacement part.
As the import fans like to point out, the small problems get over emphasized on internet forums and the problems are really as common nor as great as a few posters make it seem, e.g.,toyota sludge, transmission problems in Hondas, and on and on. My Cobalt has been absolutely great and pleasure to drive.
I saw a comment in another discussion about the GM discussion commenting about the "tone." That's exactly what I had said way back about someone coming here seeing the constant kvetching and negative posting repeating over and over would not want to participate. It just never ends repeats and continues where it wouldn't be allowed in other topics.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I wasn't mentioning the Cobalt forum to highlight problems or degrade GM or any manufacturer. Since Uplander was mentioning the Cobalt and simply used it as an example, what I believe about varying reliability would apply to any vehicle.
In general, I believe forums tend to be a bad way to evaluate reliability/quality. Next time you buy a router, monitor, TV, washing machine, snow blower, or whatever, do a brief search through forums or reviews on various retail websites. You'll find negative reviews on about everything.
I recently purchased a Panasonic 65 inch plasma TV. The reviews on Cnet and other home theater type sites rave about this TV. Considering it's not a cheap TV I read through many forums and customer reviews. I was almost didn't buy the TV with so many posts complaining about image retention, buzzing, and DOAs. Well I went ahead and bought it and couldn't be happier. I've had no such problems and the TV has an incredible picture.
I haven't bothered posting a positive review though, but if my TV was giving me problems, I'd be more likely to.
I know a guy that had this problem and he said it was covered under warranty and he said the fix was not very simple.
I firmly believe that's true.
Should raise the question on "any" model of any auto manufacturer. Cobalt, Civic, Corola, Camry, Altima, etc. from year to year. Auto manufacturers do not divulge to the public anything regarding how, why to what extent they may alter specifications, tolerances of parts and components. Neither do they divulge when they might change sourcing, suppliers, of these parts and components. Are changes made to lower costs and thus might compromise reliability when safety is not an issue? Are changes made to consolidate functions and eliminate some pieces or parts? We on the outside will never know.
I believe that problems tend to crop up in the first year of production, but as I've said here before, in forty years of looking at CR's, I've never once--til now--seen a car go from much worse than average to much better than average in one model year--this is overall--before. I'm an auditor, so that is why I'm skeptical of the hard-nosed reality of those ratings.
Again, (tired of saying this) don't forget that the CR methodology compares the vehicle to its competitors of the same year. So a vehicle could stay exactly the same, but change color if the competition got much worse or much better year to year.
Looked in the April 2011 issue. Could not find model "E9x". But, they did show a category for 330i, 335i and for years 2007,8,9,10 they show full black circles under "fuel system". For years 2005,6 they show full red circles. So, obviously, the change BMW instituted in 2007 model year was a huge mistake by their engineering management.
So, did CR accurately reflect what BMW owners were experiencing in their 2007-2010 (BAD) and alternatively the good experiences with the 2005-6?
That is true, but then they write "models to avoid" when it may not be a model to avoid or more troublesome than the same model, the years around it. But they don't present it that way.
I can't even say when I've noticed variances in their reporting like this, but I definitely have.
The simple fact that CR says in the text about the Juke, 'we expect average reliability', tells me they can't place hard reliance on their survey results for that model, or they'd have a 2011 in their 'models to avoid' and 2012 in their recommended models. I don't know; maybe they do, but I think it's odd the text just said 'average'--almost as if they were embarrassed by sample error in that particular case.
Seems to happen with data presented on Truedelta too. Not at all uncommon to see reliability change from year to year. The 07 Cobalt is rated more reliable than the 09.
Could it be sample error? It certainly could be, but I don't doubt reliability can have variation from year to year.
You can click on a year with a problem mark to find out what the problem is and the repair cost. Try the '06 Chevy Cobalt for example. "Reliability Ratings by Identifix is based from repair shop-reported issues. Though this data may be for years prior to model you are researching, it exposes how reliable this model platform has been historically." No recurring problems reported after '06.
And from previous posts, I remember something from marketing about a happy customer tells 3 people, while an unhappy customer tells 9 people. Might skew things.
Thanks for looking that up.
The Ex label is for different models of the 3 series...E90=4 door sedan, E93=convertible, etc.
The 33x nomenclature identifies the turbocharged models for the year range being discussed. When CR finally starts listing the 2011-2012 models, look for an improvement in the rating for those 2 years (after the problem was finally rectified).
Based on what I know about the year range in question, I'd say CR was "dead-on" in its analysis of the fuel system segment.
They were impeccably accurate with GM's horrid problem spots also. Therefore, the bottom line is they are a good guide.
Regards,
OW
If it was, then I buy into the logic.
V1.0 syndrome. Wonder if Hyundai will address the issues soon?
Interestingly Ford EcoBoost engines also seem to have reliability issues, and what do they have in common?
DI turbos with High compression but no premium fuel requirement.
Does the turbo GM engine require premium? Would be interesting to see who gets it right first, in other words a reliable turbo using regular fuel.
Actually that depends on the model.
A hybrid Fusion is rated more reliable than the Malibu scoring a solid red circle. V6 models are all rated average except for the AWD fusion that is much worse than average. The 4cyl Malibu is rated above average vs average for the 4cyl Fusion in 2011.
IMO, looking at the ratings, unless you are looking pre '09, the Fusion and Malibu score similarly enough (outside of AWD which isn't available on the 'Bu) that I'd buy the car I liked better.
Prior to 2010, the Fusion was rated as one of the most reliable sedans. Changes with the 2010 refresh hurt reliability. OTOH prior to 09, the Malibu had a pretty bad ratings.
Looking at Truedelta, the Malibu and Fusion are rated really close with the Fusion being rated slightly better. But TD reports small sample sizes for the various years on the Malibu.
Really? Explain how with details vs CR auto tests and their annual car issue in April.
On GM and CR. Those who subscribe to CR may well look at April issues going back say 10 years. Look at each year, flip through the pages with the circle ratings. Which car company over the years garners most of the full black circles. Who gets most of the full red circles. How is GM doing in this regard? Did it, does it have more black then say Honda, Acura? Is GM improving?
Still, I am less passionate about GM's I've owned recently than those I owned thirty years ago. That says something to me.
I'd say knocking a make because of hearsay without even having sat in one, is even worse...and that's the case here, people have admitted it.
I agree. I've owned a Ford, a Honda, and an Audi at the same time, and you can clearly see the benefits and pitfalls of each. None were perfect nor disastrous, but each had strengths:
Audi - by far best to drive, most gorgeous interior, but finicky to repair and $$ for parts
Ford (Mercury) - reliable, heavy, quiet ride, spongy upholstery and seat padding (not a good thing), and poorly assembled and fitting parts
Honda - good handling, nice interior, extremely reliable, rock solid, firmer ride and noisier than the others
Did sit in a new Malibu, the rear seat definitely needs to be addressed. Seriously, I think the new Sentra's felt roomier.
Impala was much better.
My 10 year old absolutely loved the lime green metallic Spark. A lot of the interior is the same color, down to the cup holders in the door. That'll get scratched quick. Fun design, though, and so cheap who can complain?
We also checked out the new Buicks - Encore and Verano. I preferred the latter, with more comfy seats and nearly as much room as the Malibu. I can see why it sells well.
The Encore was not as comfy and some materials don't seem worthy of the Buick badge. Rear seat is tight and visibility is compromised. Better on paper than in person.
My kids wanted to score each car on a 1 to 5 scale and even took notes! Funny.
Car, Dad/mom/son/daughter plus kids' notes:
Encore 3, 3, 3, 3.5
Small, nice paint, weird windows (visibility issues)
Verano 3.5, 4, 3.5, 3
Comfy, sleek, no leg room, cool design
Enclave 4, 4.5, 4.5, 3
Plush, no bench seat (no room for the dog), big
Malibu 3, 3, 3.5, 3
Plasticky, tight, too low, comfy but small
Traverse 3, 3, 4, 4.5
Good price, plasticky, tight, tiny sunroof, big (room for dog), high
Spark 3, 5, 4, 4
Fun, small, not for long rides, green color, only 4 seats
I think mom gave the 5 because our son liked it.
I'd rent a Verano but the one I'd want to own is the Enclave, even if the dog can't sit next to the kids.
Did they have the redesigned Impala?
Yes, a great dealer can overcome a lot of model/manufacturer drawbacks/deficiencies...
I didn't like that interior color, but otherwise, I couldn't really find anything to fault the car. And, I'm sure there will be other interior choices!
Oh, I do have to give a slight redemption to the Malibu, as well. I went to the show with a friend who's about 5'10". When I put the seat back to the point that I was really comfortable, he couldn't even try getting in the back. However, I could adjust it to the point where I could still tolerate driving it, but sacrificing a little comfort, and he could fit.
And, with the seat positioned to where he would have it, I fit in the back just fine. I'd still call the Malibu's back seat smallest in the midsize class, but it's not quite as bad as I previously thought.
Another thing I've noticed is that they've really been plasticking-up the interiors of a lot of cars these days, so it seems the difference between something like an Accord or Camry, versus a Malibu, Fusion, or even a Chrysler 200, has really diminished.
It also seems like they're almost forcing you to go with leather interiors these days, if you want something nice. The base fabric in most cars is kind of unpleasant to the touch, and looks sort of like something you'd see on outdoor lawn furniture. But, it has sort of a durable feel to it...I'll give it that much.
The Pathfinder is a JX minus all the plushness.
My means are a bit more modest, so my picks are different.
I looked at the Scion xB. I had an opportunity to look it over as I pleased, because nobody else was interested. I was able to look at the Mazda 5 as I pleased, also. Great wagovan. I would have concerns about people who are seated in the third row.
The Focus was slightly interesting. If only the rake of the rear of the car didn't cut the cargo room so much, argh!
The Honda Insight, an affordable hybrid, has a roofline that I had to limbo under to get into the car!! Aside from a Miata I was given a ride in the late '90s, I've never had to do that with any other car I've been in.
The Fit is a master of versatility. It appears to have adequate passenger space and have a cargo hold behind the rear seats almost as large as my current vehicle, despite being shorter length-wise.
The Nissan display was missing the Cube. The Mitsubishi display was simply nonexistent. Hmm.
My brother's teenaged daughter clambered into every truck that she could get into. The Jeep brand, especially the Wrangler Unlimited, was the vehicle she was most interested in. Neither I nor her parents know how she became interested in trucks. Otherwise, she did try out the Mazda 3, Mini Cooper (all of them), and the C-Max.
My brother's frame prevents him from ever considering a Wrangler Unlimited, as the top of his head sticking through the moonroof proved. Toyota's Land Cruiser also left him with almost no headroom, but I think the moonroof was a factor there. He can fit into any F-based SUV produced by Ford.
The Ford display had some interesting distractions for the public to play with. There was a "safe driver" video game where my niece failed spectacularly ("No, that is NOT Grand Theft Auto."), and a torque measuring machine where a player had to arm wrestle a lever as fast as possible, then get a rating of how much force was exerted (vacuum cleaner, lawn mower, motorcycle, etc.). The lever was VERY hard to move, so nobody but either athletes or people who regularly move heavy stuff would get a rating at or better than a motorcycle's.
Despite having sore calves from walking, and experiencing trouble finding parking space near the convention center (note: take Metro when going to downtown DC!), I had a measure of fun.
Oh, and right on cue, to give me some temptation at that auto show, my 2000 Park Ave started acting up. Check engine light came on, and the transmission was shifting a little funny. I'm hoping it's nothing too major...if it ends up needing a rebuild, I don't know if it would be worth it.
The way it came on so suddenly though, I think there's just a sensor or something that's gone bad. I checked the transmission fluid, and it's still full, and nice and pink.
GM needs the Impala to do well as Toyota is cleaning up in the premium sedan market. Both the ES350 and Avalon outsold the Lacrosse.
Jan sales for the Lacrosse: 3548
XTS: 1900
Avalon: 4840
ES350: 5186
Taurus: 5638 (must have been a lot of fleet orders)
300: 5325
My kids were climbing in to pickup beds and loved the big conversion vans like the NV and Sprinter.
GM didn't have the new pickups there. This town ain't exactly pickup crazy but still, that was disappointing.
The whole family (except me) LOVED the Jeep Wrangler. They want one badly. I'm not in love with the mileage in the teens and it's not exactly easy to live with. I like 'em on the 3 days of the years where it's not cold or too hot/humid here in the Mid Atlantic.
womenTSBs?The last time I actually drove down there, I parked in front of a friend's house on 5th Street, which still had no weekend parking restrictions, and we walked down. It was a bit of a hike, but not too bad.
Oh, and they did have the new pickups there, but they were roped off so you couldn't get in them. They had a Silverado and a Sierra. They were both toward the back of their respective display areas. They looked good IMO...nothing earth-shattering in the styling department, but still pleasant enough.
One other detail I just remembered. I sat in a LaCrosse...thought it was nice, at first, but then when I hopped out I whacked the hell out of my knee on the edge of the dash. I never noticed it before, but it does jut out a bit, somewhat reminiscent of the old "Dog Leg" A-pillar on old 50's GM and Ford cars with the wraparound windshields.
You'd think that wouldn't happen on a "large-ish" car. But, I remember doing it once or twice on the Crown Vic and Grand Marquis, as well.
14,153. I didn't list it as it is mostly fleet and I seriously doubt anyone is cross shopping it with a Lacrosse or Avalon etc.
I've read that it's now over 70% fleet.
Need to find a used one and park it at the beach.
Chevy is in third place in brand perception.
Ford, Chevrolet among Consumer Reports' top 6 brands (Detroit News)