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An outside mechanic said the brakes are not wearing properly and could be a master cylinder issue. The front brakes are showing no wear at all. It just doesn't make sense for the rear brakes to wear so quickly.
I have filed a complaint on the National Highway Transportation website. There were only 6 complaints logged. We need everyone to log their complaints.
I was contacted by a representative of VW National Customer service and he stated that my case had been "re-reviewed" and they felt that my case was exceptional enough to refund the 200$ I spent on new brakes and reground rotors.
Remember that my case was a brand new 2008 VW Jetta with 4200 miles at the time I discovered metal on metal on my back brakes.
The VW representative did not seem inclined to consider this a design flaw/mechanical problem other than wear and was not able to offer a suggestion about how he could explain my case.
I seriously doubt that anyone with brake wear at beyond 10,000 miles is going to get any traction (sorry for the pun) with VW no matter what I/you/anyone feels is a reasonable amount of life expectancy for brakes on a car.
Good luck,
still with you
Tom
:shades:
Good to hear that you got your money back! You're right though, VW will not consider refunding anything if it's past the initial 12,000 miles. Neither will the BBB AutoLine. At this point the only recourse is to place a complaint with the NHTSA http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/index.cfm
We now have about 28,000 mi on our Jetta, with the original brakes.
But one data point for 03 VW Jetta TDI. It is @ 111,000 miles and I just am thinking of putting on the new tires, I bought 2 or so years ago, as I got the LAST place oem tire and most that had it pronounced it crappo and would probably not exceed 30-40k miles TOPS 50k. . I do 10,000 mile rotations and have rotated them at least 11 times. I use that time to inspect front/rear rotors and pads.
The REAR pads have over half left and the FRONTS a tad more than that. Early on on www.tdiclub.com, a few gurus mentioned the VW's (euros in general) put greater BIAS to the rear pads. (I have read in passing the ratio is close to 2 to 1) Indeed the rear rotors/pads are smaller, i.e., less surface area. So to compensate/take advantage of the set up: one should not "PRE "brake, but to make sure that when one does HAVE to brake to, brake more firmly. This subtle/major shift in turn causes the vehicles weight to shift to the fronts where the bigger rotors and more surface area brake pads can do the majority of the work.
The real reason for this so called anomoly is VW's ( Jettas) are built to cruise the autobahn @ 100 mph and above all day, etc, so the braking is designed for this scenario.
Maybe I did not look at the paperwork correctly. Do these warranties not cover brake and rotors? It is a Euro car and people keep telling me not to get it b/c parts are soooo expensive.
I'm a single mother with 2 children. This is my first real car in my name. Is this car going to give me more problems than what I can handle??
I'm just really questioning purchasing this vechile now and I'm questioning the validity of the warranty.
Can someone help me please???
Even as I have a Jetta TDI and have 111,000 miles, and am very satisfied with it, given your circumstances, I would NOT recommend a used Jetta gasser. Honda Civic/Accord or some to any of its category competitors IS the WAY to go. This does not mean they are trouble FREE. It just means there is less chance of you getting bad ones. Also even if a dealer service shop is poor , they can at least fix it. And if you chose an independent there are many more of them.
If she is looking at used, she is going to have to pay a lot for one of those. Used VWs are pretty pricey, as well. To me, the american makes are better buys in the used car market.
My point on the used car prices also means that if one is going to buy a used recent model honda or toyota (and to some extent VW), you may as well buy new, because you are not going to save much on the price of the used one. (Of course, I don't know if things have changed recently in that regard, given the economic situation and all)
Brake pad life does depend on your driving environment and style and every car is different. The Jetta seems to be a vehicle that does wear pads quickly under certain conditions. You may be able to increase pad life by modifying your driving style to suit this car. Many people do have habits that cause pads to wear without even realizing it.
Don't know how the Motor Trend people drive but they didn't mention in their article that they thought the Accord was a lemon because of the rear brake job.
On a side note: I would be very careful when getting repair work done at new car dealerships. If they had ever thought of "getting a little unwarranted repair income" before these hard times, you can just imagine what pressure the backshop managers are under now to keep the dealership afloat. This is not to say that they are crooked but I've had my fair share of outright sham repair jobs by a couple of local dealers....and that was when new cars were selling great.
1. see my prior post about the rear braking bias, for the easy correction, (you already know what it costs and the increased frequency when you do NOT want to do it) Vw Jetta TDI is @ 112,000 miles and more than half the rear pads left. As an aside, aside @ 74,300 miles an independent tire shop checked the rear brakes on a (my) Honda Civic driven per recommendations, and pronounced it looked good to go till @ least 150,000 miles) Naturally they want the business so they will check again, per 10,000 miles rotations.
2. unspoken but the US brake vendors do work for most of the oems. aka Honda Toyota, Nissan, VW, GM, Ford,Chrysler, etc, etc.
Aside or 2b. . while dealers HAVE to do warranty work when they absolutely have to, it is billed at a WAY lower rate than "customer requested" maintenance. Needless to say what they prefer and market for.
Aside or 2c. This is a natural consequence of front wheel drive transmissions mated to front engines format.
More to the VW point, again a firm maybe. In theory, the number and percentage of brake issues has gone down since the 2002 MY when the rear pads seemed to have very short interval life. This was due to 1. a very aggressive rear brake bias 2. very soft rear pad materials. Both were known to be corrected in 2003 MY. If I personally (judging by the pad thickness left @ 113,000 miles of HARD miles on oem brakes) do not get @ least 200,000 miles on the original set, 2003 MY Jetta, I will be severely disappointed.
To post this again, VW's do have a rear bias. So the key to more "even braking" is not to so called " pre and/or trail brake. " What this means in practical terms, (given the majority of non emergency situations) is to brake firmly in such a way that the weight is transfered to the front brakes, which by design should normally handle most of the friction exchange.
I am just as interesting in other folks experiences on the 2009 Jetta TDI model, but at 700 miles, nada so far.
If you could help me with your advice, I would greatly appreciate it. You seemed very knowledgeable.
Maybe she bought a good one.
We have 27,000 miles and brakes pads still have about 50% left.
For a while, I thought it might be normal, but the brake dust keeps piling up. I'm going to take it into the dealer for service next week and see what they say. I know that I'm going to have to replace the disk brake pads regularly, but if this keeps up, I'll be replacing them at every oil change!
I'll let you know what they tell me.
Oh well ... car seems to be running just fine now!
The below is wordy, but the truth is pretty basic.
VW is applying a conventional braking system in an unconventional way, and the result is a predictable and unannounced premature wear of the rear components. The front brakes are bigger, and have the wear sensors. Pretty obvious where they thought the wear would be. Too bad the reality is different. In 20k miles I am now on my third set of rear pads. The original front pads are still at 13 mm. Its clear there is too much rear bias, given the small components and lack or wear sensor.
This is for my "safety" I am told. Funny how no one at VW can tell me how my safety is benefited when I have to make an emergency stop with an unknown and unanticipated (by a reasonable person) rear pad failure. The physical design (larger front components, wear sensor on front), and lack of user manual cautions/warning result in a reasonable person assuming front wear occurs first, and therein lies the danger of this system.
VW does not seem willing to predict how safe my rear biased braking will be when metal hits metal at speed, and they explicitly refused my request for an extended warranty on the new pads. Pretty clear VW does not expect the rear pads to last much more than 12K, else why not agree to a written extension in the vein of customer satisfaction?
FWIW, I was told by the service manager that the pads are a new, harder material. That is OK if they combined it with new, thicker rotors. As my originals rotors were left in place I feel that VW is attempting to extend rear pad wear at the expense of rear rotors, such that I may get to 13K miles, which means no warranty on the pads, and now I also get the good news that I also need new rotors. After arriving home from freeway driving on the new pads I found the rear rims where hot enough to boil away water. That’s the rims, not the rotor. And this after being assured that all is well with my fine German, engineered braking systems that is designed with my safety in mind.
[begin official complaint]
To whom it may concern.
This letter is to express my dissatisfaction with rear brake performance on my 2007 Jetta.
The summary is extremely rapid rear pad wear, while then front, which have the wear sensor, remain unscathed. This is a known issue and the dealer admits its part of a “safe braking” design that tries to make the car squat rather than dive.
The problem is, this is an unconventional method of brake application (rear biased when physics has the fronts normally doing more work), combined with a conventional brake design that has smaller parts and no wear sensors in the rear.
The result of this “safety feature” is that I can expect to wear out rear pads faster than front, in as little as 9-10K miles. The problem is a reasonably minded person would not come to this conclusion, and the lack of a rear pad wear warning system creates a potential safety issue. The user manual does not warn that rear pads may wear faster, and in fact indicates they should be inspected each 10 k, or when the front wear sensor illuminates. Both of these cases may be too late, leading at best to expensive repairs when the rotors are damaged, or worse, to unpredictable braking in an emergency. If I have my car inspected at 10K, and the rears are still serviceable, I do not believe they would make it to 20K. With the stated inspection schedule and lack of explicit warning sensor the brakes should be expected to last at least 20K miles.
The service manager at NCV tells me this level or wear is normal and to be expected on this car. Because my brakes are “working as designed” there is to fix. This is the problem and root of my complaint. The design is flawed. If they chose to design a vehicle that brakes from the rear they can reasonably expect more rear wear. A reasonable design would then increase the size of those parts, and ensure that wear sensors are positioned at the point of wear. In this design the front brakes are bigger and are equipped with the wear indicator. Ironically the fronts do not leave any appreciable brake dust, which combined with their current 13 mm thickness clearly shows there not doing much. In contrast, the rear brakes are smaller, have no wear indicator, and within days both rear wheels are blanketed in a thick layer of soot.
And I am to believe this is normal, and for my safety. I bought this car for my daughter, who does not care much of things brakes and such. I cannot expect to her to diligently visually inspect the rear brakes before each drive. And despite being within warranty both the dealer and manufacture state rear biased brake application is an intentional aspect of the design, again for my safety, and that there is nothing that can be done, except stay on top of it and get a free set of pads within the 12k warranty on a on-going basis. That is not a fix, it’s a work around. If the window sticker indicated the vehicle needed brakes approximately every 9 months, for my safety of course, I would have walked away laughing. Now, it’s not so funny.
Details:
The car was bought as certified used with some 18K miles, and we immediately noticed the rear wheels were always covered in brake dust. The front wheels have never shown any appreciable pad materials. I have no idea if new brakes were fitted as part of the certified new car. I was not concerned with the rear brakes at the time. While getting warranty service for an airbag warning light at New Century Volkswagen (NCV), we pointed out the rear wheel dust and we were told it was normal.
At 27,075 (9K later) the car needed tires; the mechanic told us the rear brakes were worn, and that the fronts were still at 90%. At the time of the repair it was confirmed that OEM specified replacement brake pads would be used. The returned pads are Textar, 2391401, and are confirmed to be of OEM quality (http://www.tmd-friction.com/). VW refused warranty consideration on the pads because they were not bought through VW, even though VW buys there pads from other sources; they refused to make any attempt to see if they were “officially supported”, which I believe they are and which they should be able to easily confirm.
We immediately noticed the same abundance of dust on the rear wheels. I confirmed neither wheel was locked (both spun with out excessive drag), and brought the car back to the mechanic on 09/23/08. They too inspected the brakes and said nothing was dragging and to monitor. If continued they would put new pads on for 50% off.
Approximately 10,000 miles later and the rear pads are almost worn to metal while the front pads show no additional wear. It was obvious that something was not right so we scheduled emergency service with NCV. As noted the outcome was the determination the brakes are working as desi
According to the dealership, "the brakes on a vw are vented rotors, no squeak or rust prevention can be used on them or it wont vent the heat of the brakes properly. The noise you hear is surface rust being removed from the rotor."
Does this sound like a legit explanation?
I posted about the weight transfer issues, front wheel drive and front engine issues in msg # 109 .
You have to remember though, the service rep. is more likely to have a degree in finance than an ASE certification.
I was lucky enough that it happened near enough to my house to limp it home. Since it was a Saturday and I had a busy schedule for Monday (and didn't feel up to fighting with the stealership either) I went ahead and bought the pads and rented a caliper tool at AutoZone. The pad swap went smooth and I thought everthing was good until my front brakes started dragging and overheating on Monday.
I've done plenty of pad swaps on cars and this one has me dumfounded. I've been told that it could be anything from a bad or misadjusted brake booster to sticking front calipers. The oddest was a theory that the pads I bought were too thick and that VW has about 10 different variations of pad thickness and have to be ordered using the vin#. If that's true...what a scam!
I'm not even going to try the dealership or VW USA at this point so I'll check the front calipers this weekend test the booster. Not sure how to test the pad thickness theory if it comes to that.
I'll post the resolution if I find it.
Seems VW is thinking the front pads should wear out first, otherwise, why put the wear indicators in front only??
I live in an area with lots of steep hills and hairpin turns, so pretty much have to ride the brakes to maintain the posted speed limit and avoid going off the road. I was wondering if that had something to do with it, but based on the other posts, it is a design flaw with the braking system. drdata, did you get a response from VW Corp?
fyi, the dealer quoted me $450 for new rear brakes and rotors (sight unseen) but the local VW repair shop is only charging $325.