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2009 Toyota Camry

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Comments

  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    "...why does Toyota(/etc) have to change stuff that does not need change?.."

    While there are some very definite advantages to DBW, some HIGHLY advantagous, Toyota/etc's base reason for adopting DBW fleet wide had its origins in a design flaw in the U140E/F ("F" = F/awd) transaxle developed initially for the RX300.

    Since Toyota/etc wanted to adopt (~2002) the more fuel efficient U140E across the fleet something had to be done to "cover-up" the design flaw. So DBW was adopted to "protect the drive train", prevent premature failures of the U140E transaxle when a downshift could not be accomplished in the time allotted, driver expectation of downshift "time".

    So DBW was used to "hold-off" rising engine torque in response to gas pedal position/depression for 1-2 seconds to allow the extended time needed for the transaxle to accomplish a downshift shortly following an upshift.

    Here we are, 2010, and Toyota/etc is still struggling with this same issue. Whereas Ford, with the new Edge, simply adopted a variable displacement ATF oil pump, low volume for HIGH engine revs and incrementally higher, selective volume, for lower engine revs.
  • notmybmwnotmybmw Member Posts: 101
    Hi Willard:

    Interesting theory you have there. (Wondering where it was published initially. Was it by Toyota, or a third party engineering journal?)

    I'm sorry, but I don't understand exactly the meaning of your sentence, "prevent premature failures of the U140E transaxle when a downshift could not be accomplished in the time allotted, driver expectation of downshift "time". "

    The part that confuses me, I guess, is the reference to the "timing" of a downshift. I wouldn't have thought that most drivers/owners gave a rat's butt about the timing of a downshift in their automatic tranny. If you could use a "real driving scenario" to explain what this means, I'd appreciate it.

    Also, my question is (I'm an unlucky buyer of an 07 Camry, which I believe was its first year of application in that model).....what was wrong with the good old "planetary gear system" (or whatever the heck it was) OLD style Camry transmission? I never heard any horror stories about it. Were there lots that I missed? (since I was busy driving my 1997 manual transmission model?)

    Thanks for additional insight, Willard.

    Michael
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    >Whereas Ford, with the new Edge, simply adopted a variable displacement ATF oil pump, low volume for HIGH engine revs and incrementally higher, selective volume, for lower engine revs.

    That's much more effective from an engineering standpoint, but it probably costs more than covering up a shift lag by changing the engine control in the software. What I think you're saying is the complaints about a long shift lag when someone was slowing down on a ramp and floored the accelerator to merge into a coming available slot caused toyota to change their software. Now the engine doesn't produce much power for a period of time until the transmission has had time to effect the long downshift time and is ready for more engine torque. So the car just doesn't go anywhere but feels like the motor is accelerating but it's only at low power.

    Is that it?

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    I don't think planetary gear system automatics have been used since the demise of the GM 4-speed Hydramatic back around 1964, with the notable exception of hybrid-electric cars like the Toyota Prius.

    Just a suggestion for Mr. West: Please avoid obscure abbreviations and all caps, and try to explain things in a way a non-engineer can understand.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Prior to developement of the U140E/F transaxle the ATF gear type oil pump was always pumping at full volume, the volume that was dictated by the engine RPM. Just downstream was a pressure holding accumulator and beyond that a pressure relief value so line ATF pressure never exceeded a specified level.

    Much the same as the power stearing punp, HUGE energy loss due to pumping so much fluid up to pressure and then simply dumping it back into the sump if it was not needed.

    With the U140E/F the spring loaded pressure relief valve was eliminated in favor of an ECU controlled solenoid that determined the ATF line pressure in "real-time". So while the ATF pump was still pumping VOLUMES of fluid most of the time it was no longer doing so under a HUGE back pressure.

    So if ATF line pressure was to be controlled, varied, under real-time requirements, there was no reason to keep the pressure holding accumulator. So it too, was abolished.

    Now, with the engine at idle, the condition it is likely to be in when you release the gas pedal for a short/brief coasting period, and with the upshift resulting from that same gas pedal release, there is, will be, NO reserve ATF pressure in preparation for that upcoming(??) downshift.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    "..real driving scenario.."

    The post following yours does a very good job of that.

    Or else you could find Toyota/etc's own examples, three of them, as stated in the TSB released in the of 2003 as applies to that year's Camry.
  • notmybmwnotmybmw Member Posts: 101
    Thanks, Keith. (I see Willard agrees that your answer hits the nail on the head.)
    It was EXACTLY that kind of scenario or the equally or even MORE dangerous one of slowing down to make a turn across a line of ONCOMING traffic at an intersection that led me to confronting my dealer about the dangers of the DBW in the first place.

    Here in Canada.....at least here in St. Catharines Ontario...our dealers were in COMPLETE denial of (or just out of the info loop on) any DBW problems and said simply "It's normal".

    When I finally confronted them with the TSB for ECM re-do,(I downloaded it off this site) they tried to tell me the paper I was holding wasn't a TSB and wasn't even a Toyota document. (They were about 5% right, because the Canadian TSB's look slightly different and have a different name......but it was the same damn content and detail...needless to say, I was pissed when they finally conceded to performing the fix.)
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    When the TSB was applied did the dealer inform you that the firmware revision, REFLASH, only makes it less likely these 1-2 second downshift delay/hesitation events will occur, not a full cure...FIX...?

    The new firmware simply tries to predict, forecast, what the driver's next action will/might be when pressure is removed from the gas pedal. A fast/rapid release is presumed to mean that the driver wishes to slow the car using (presumably) engine compression and so the transaxle will remain in the current (low,lower??) gear ratio. On the other hand a light/slow release of foot pressure on the gas pedal and the presumption will be that the driver simply wishes to enter cruise mode and if an upshift is appropreate then the transaxle will upshift.

    The transaxle, STILL, cannot perform a QUICK downshift following an upshift if the engine RPM is at idle or close by.
  • notmybmwnotmybmw Member Posts: 101
    OK, delrayMike.....you got me! Yes, I did take auto mechanics in highschool back in the early Sixties. (Just like ME.....in my early Sixties!!)

    BUT you gotta admit, whatever they did to the Camry's transmission.....they sure screwed it up compared to what it used to be.

    Regards,
    Mike
  • notmybmwnotmybmw Member Posts: 101
    Good question, Willard, but, no......the dealer was totally unfamiliar with the TSB. I literally was the first person who had ever shown it to him. Neither the service manager (who WAS, admittedly new in his job) nor any of his experienced staff, had ever heard of the TSB for the ECM. (We ARE in a bit of a backwoods here, with a population of only about 100K, but I would have expected more than this from Toyota. We're in a one-horse town where one company owns about six franchises....Toyota, Lexus, BMW, Mini, Acura, Chrysler, Hyundai, Mercedes......have I named every brand you can think of yet?......www.performancecars.ca ......so they have a large amount of "attitude" to say the least.

    My TSB was ill-performed: they failed to take the car out on the road for the mandatory "training regimen" and they also didn't have the stickers on hand to apply under the hood, to show that the work had been performed. (as dictated by the TSB.) The told me they'd MAIL it to me!! Laughable.
  • roadanroadan Member Posts: 1
    edited February 2010
    Anyone know where I can get a fuse box diagram with complete explainations on what fuse serves what purpose as the abreviations are limiting. The N-S-E-W direction indicator on the rear view mirror has no power. After the oil is changed how do you reset the service light?

    I do not have a manual or a warrantee as the car is salvage title.

    Chris
  • kiawahkiawah Member Posts: 3,666
    For oil change, try:
    - set to trip A
    - turn engine off
    - holding odometer reset button, turn key to ON (not start) while holding reset button, for about 5 seconds as display bars count down.

    For fuse, not exactly clear from the electrical schematics. The EC mirror is fused off the 10A ECU 1G#1 fuse.

    But also check 10A Dome, 7.5A Gauge#2, 10A MPX-B, and 30A sunroof since those power different roof elements.
  • exlerexler Member Posts: 129
    I had the Toyota dealer do an oil change and the invoice said they used synthetic oil--Do I have to keep using synthetic oil in the future?
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    No, unless you have a 2010 model with the new 2.5-liter 4-cylinder.
  • notmybmwnotmybmw Member Posts: 101
    If I were you, exler, I wouldn't consider using any other oil in your car......whether it was "trained on" or "just recently converted to" synthetic. The beauty of synthetic is that you need only change it once per year.....for the rest of your car's life!

    It IS definitely more expensive, but you shouldn't be having a dealer perform oil changes for you anyway. Having any shop change your oil (or even doing it yourself) does not void your warranty, so why pay someone 135 bucks an hour when Walmart can do it for 50.......including parts and labour!!

    I'll be curious to see what other comments you receive, but now you've got my 2c worth. (I'm an auto mechanics school graduate and three time Camry owner...for what it's worth.)

    Cheers and good luck with your car. Be sure to find a 'friendly' dealer and ask his service manager to provide you with any and all Technical Service Bulletin upgrades.

    Michael
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    But if the engine is still under the 5/60 powertrain warranty, you still have to change the oil every 6 months or 5000 miles, whichever comes first (again if the car is not a 2010 4-cylinder model with the new 12 month/10K miles change interval).

    Otherwise, if you have a warranty claim with the engine, it might not be honored, even if you have used synthetic.
  • silvercoupesilvercoupe Member Posts: 326
    But if the engine is still under the 5/60 powertrain warranty, you still have to change the oil every 6 months or 5000 miles, whichever comes first (again if the car is not a 2010 4-cylinder model with the new 12 month/10K miles change interval

    I have a 2010 4-cylinder SE and the manual states that the OCI is every 6 months or 5000 miles.

    The Service Mgr. at my dealer says that 10K intervals are fine for the 2010, but until I get this in writing from Toyota I will stick to the 5K interval.
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    Yes, the change was made mid-year; I don't know if Toyota will mail all owners a letter about the change. I believe all dealerships have been informed by now.
  • silvercoupesilvercoupe Member Posts: 326
    edited February 2010
    Yes, the change was made mid-year; I don't know if Toyota will mail all owners a letter about the change. I believe all dealerships have been informed by now.

    If it is not in writing from Toyota, it didn't happen. That's my position.

    My dealership is pushing me hard to go to the 10K OCI. I think because they gave me coupons for 3 free oil changes during the first year. If I go to the 10K interval, they will only have to provide 1 of the free oil changes.
  • jazzycarjazzycar Member Posts: 3
    I purchased my car in April 2009. I only have 10,000 miles on my car and it needs a new transmission. Unfortunately for me my dealer, in baltimore, will not honor my warranty. They came up with some bogus story about how I damaged the transmission because my wheels were spinning in the snow. Totally ridiculous, this is just another case of Toyota failing to admit there is a problem with their cars until it is too late.
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    Welcome to the forums! Without further details about what's been diagnosed, it's hard for us on the Internet to make any informed comments.

    I assume you have an automatic transmission.

    It did snow a lot this past month (I live in central VA).
  • paul3637paul3637 Member Posts: 45
    I am assuming you have asked to talk to a regional manager. If that gets no result, call in a local TV news crew. They'll love to jump in on another Toyota scandal. Reminds me of the oil line issue I am currently faced with:

    TOYOTA V6 OIL LINE SCANDAL

    http://sites.google.com/site/toyotav6oillinescandal/
  • jazzycarjazzycar Member Posts: 3
    It is an automatic transmission. I am waiting for a factory rep to come out and check out the car, but it doesn't seem promising. The dealership advised me that they spoke with the factory rep over the phone and he agreed with their decision. I asked for the rep to come out and check the car.
  • kiawahkiawah Member Posts: 3,666
    edited February 2010
    Do you have VSC?

    If you weren't hotdogging it around in the snow, then there would be nothing that they could read out of the computer that would indicate that you caused the problem.

    If you were, then tail between legs, and be at best behavior and maybe they'll cut you a break on the repair bill....hopefully covering some piece of it.
  • jbhansenjbhansen Member Posts: 20
    Having any shop change your oil (or even doing it yourself) does not void your warranty, so why pay someone 135 bucks an hour when Walmart can do it for 50.......including parts and labour!!

    Holy crap, Batman! My Toyota dealer charges $39.95 for an oil change, which includes tire rotation AND the top off of fluids.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    They came up with some bogus story about how I damaged the transmission because my wheels were spinning in the snow

    How can spinning tires when stuck in the snow wreck a tranny unless you were doing it hard for a prolonged period of time? Sounds like there may be another hidden defect on their cars? I hope Toyota isn't racing to beat Chrysler into last place for reliability with their rush for the sales crown.
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    He won't tell us the whole story, so it's a little premature to blame Toyota.
  • oilandwateroilandwater Member Posts: 50
    I to am disappointed with Toyota, all they care about is their bottom line, Look at what has been coming out .....they now can't say for sure that it is a mechanical problem or "fly by wire" problem.....damage control at its best.....the bigger they are, the harder they will fall, its time for a change in Toyota USA management and that might start changing their culture.....
  • idown10283idown10283 Member Posts: 2
    What really ticked me off during this whole recall ordeal, is the plummetting value of used Toyotas! I have a 2009 Camry SE, that I purchased in April of 08. Less that 2 years old, and even the same Toyota dealer I bought it from is only offer 13500 for it towards a trade against the Tundra! What is Toyota going to do about those of us that made a sound investment, and still want to remain loyal customers? We all know that once the recall issue has blown over, Toyota will go back to being the "powerhouse auto maker" they we're just a month ago!
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    I'd advise waiting until the dust clears on this whole matter. I have no doubt resale values will stabilize and possibly even increase.

    If you can afford the Tundra now, it would be a great time to buy. Then sell the Camry later this year.
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    guys, don't get too bog down about the toyota resale value things, they have only dropped a little bit and ALG already took Toyota's current troubles into consideration for this years resale value awards; they might not be class leading anymore but they are still not too bad, here is the results!

    https://www.alg.com/ResidualValueAwards
  • exlerexler Member Posts: 129
    What are the chances that Toyota will increase the warranty on the ENTIRE vehicle on all the recalled vehicles and all NEW vehicles to 5-100,000. This may not cover all the affected units but a step in the right direction? It would be a great marketing tool.
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    I think that would be a good move for Toyota, it has worked great for Hyundai over the years - they still have the best warranty in the business

    plus, now Nissan extended the powertrain coverage to 10yrs/120k miles on CVT equipped vehicles so it would be a smart move for Toyota, since it is Nissan, Hyundai, and Ford who are going to benefit the most from Toyota's current troubles!
  • exlerexler Member Posts: 129
    I just checked KBB on a 08 Camry vs. same year Nissan Altima--not much difference on trade in, retail, etc.--anybody else done comparisons vs. other makes--model to model?
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    That would be a REALLY bad move on Toyota/ect's part IMMHO.

    An extended warranty is not much good if it is seen as an alternative to being dead.
  • notmybmwnotmybmw Member Posts: 101
    Hi, James.

    I was, of course, referring to a full Synthetic oil change....which I don't think your dealer would do for $39.95. (and Walmart also includes a 20 point inspection including all fluid top-ups, by the way.)

    Plus, don't forget, I'm quoting in wimpy old Canadian dollars......from wimpy old Canada; we pay about 30% more for everything here. (Gotta pay for Universal Healthcare somehow.......right!?)

    Got the hockey game all ready to go? Go CANADA!!!
  • exlerexler Member Posts: 129
    Do you feel anything at all needs to be done by Toyota to counteract any image problem that is currently all over the media?
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    edited March 2010
    Yes, first and foremost, find the UA cause and announce it, and the fix, publically.

    On several fronts Toyota seems to be making an effort to assure the public that the electronics, absolutely, is not the cause. That statement is totally inappropriate absent knowing, and announcing, the actual cause. Once the cause is know then, only then, should you be giving this level of assurance.

    Is Toyota protecting NipponDenso from exposure...??

    Why...??!!

    NipponDenso is a "sister" Japanese company..??

    If NipponDenso is found to be at fault what happens with all the other asian marques, and even US marques that use Denso US, that use the very same base hardware design and firmware code...??

    A "wide net" that would be..!
  • oilandwateroilandwater Member Posts: 50
    Toyota should just reconnect/rewire the kill switch to the fuel pump with a new button on the steering wheel or dashboard and stop fooling around with all these band-aid fixes......
  • zhengmzhengm Member Posts: 4
    I have a much similar experience with my 4cy camry. Especially when I come off the highway at about 40mph, it doesn't slow down as if there is no engine brake. I was worried that the acceleration pedal has problem. Maybe the "point of tipping" is too high. I mean it should be below 30mph.
  • jazzycarjazzycar Member Posts: 3
    I don't know what VSC is. Well I got everything sorted out finally. I traded in that lemon Camry. I bought a Hyundai. Hopefully they will stick to their warranty.
  • motorcity6motorcity6 Member Posts: 427
    Good luck with your decision..My impression of Hyundai is well-below Toyota and 100k warranty sells cars..however it may not keep them running to one's satisifaction..resale of Toys are good and remain high..
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,146
    You have every right to your opinion, of course, but you should check out our consumer reviews of the 2011 Sonata. Many more reviews of the Sonata, with an overall 9.5 out of 10, thank for the 2010 & 2011 Camry combined, both of which are rated lower by consumers. It's more than the warranty at this point, though if resale is a concern, the Toyota still does better.

    MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
    Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
    Share your vehicle reviews

  • santocssantocs Member Posts: 54
    Hi, I have lot of questions.

    1. Is anybody experiencing bad odour from their 2009 Camry when the A/C is switched on? I washed my car and i feel water or something has entered the front grills of my car and since then bad odour is coming up its been almost 9 months and its still not going and its bad when its rainy and less when the weather is hot.

    2. I had my servicing done 3 months back and after they rotated the tires my car is drifting towards the right little.. i had to go on a vacation and could not take it back to the dealer on time and now he is asking me $60 + tax for tire alignment... Is it very necessary?

    3. I am not at all happy with the Toyota Dealer i am going to for my vehicle servicing... Is it ok to get the oil changes done in Wal-Mart or Firestone etc? What are the advantages of taking it to a dealer itself?
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    edited July 2010
    "1. Is anybody.."

    Most everybody at one time or another in certain climate zones and with these more modern high(er) efficiency A/C systems will have experienced the "dirty gym socks" odor.

    Approximately 10,000 square inches of tightly packaged evaporator cooling vane surface area and a pretty well sealed, restricted air flow-through cabin environment.

    The simplest solution is to leave windows cracked just a bit during the night to let the accumulated moisture dry out. Also solves, mostly, the issue of sudden unexpected windshield fogging.

    See airsept.com for a possible answer.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    For the musty smell from wet evaporators, may I offer a couple more things I've done to what Wwest has offered.

    If you are able to leave your car parked in the sun with the windows down at last an inch for air flow, I find that heats up the whole car and dries the offending moisture in the heater box. The windows allow the breeze to pull air through the heater and help dry it. If the day is really breezy, I will leave windows on one side open and close the others to help draw air through the heater box.

    I also turn off the AC before I get home and turn the blower on HIGH for the last quarter mile or so. I sometimes let the blower run before leaving the car. Again, I feel that helps pull moisture off the fins inside the heater and drain out.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • santocssantocs Member Posts: 54
    also can anyone tell me how often i need to align and rotate the tires? I have not done it till now and i have around 22500 miles on my 2009 Camry and i am taking it for servicing today afternoon.

    My car is drifting slightly to the right after the tires were rotated last time at the dealership..
  • dmathews3dmathews3 Member Posts: 1,739
    Maybe it's time to get out the owners manual and READ IT!
  • santocssantocs Member Posts: 54
    Dmathews3 - If you have already read the manual.. why don't you tell the info to the forum??
  • dmathews3dmathews3 Member Posts: 1,739
    I don't mind helping people who help themselves but if you're going to drive/own a car than you can at least have enough common sense to know what kind and when to do maintainance on it. I stand by my orginal post. :shades:
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