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Comments
Let's see.
2nd row width, OK, from door to door, maybe? At elbow level, or shoulder level? We should be able to note a couple of inches gain there.
Center seating position - this is the LL Bean so it will have leather but it also has that arm rest/cup holder storage-bin thingy. I doubt the middle will be comfortable. I will try, though.
Frankly in my search for a comfortable 5th seat, the only vehicles that met that criteria for me were the Toyota Sienna minivan and the Ford Expedition full-size SUV, so we might be asking for too much here.
I'll try to remember to look at the fold-flat (how flat?) for the cargo and the gaps there, too.
I see what you mean about a short lower cushion on the seat creating an illusion of space, a trick many use on the 3rd row seats. That's why only kids fit.
Good to go, sounds like I have my work cut out for me. :shades:
Thanks.
How about also measuring the distance from armrest to armrest in the front seat to see if the gain in exterior width translated fully into a comparable increase in interior cabin width. Heck while you're at it, distance from front seat cushion to headliner so we can see where the 4 inch increase in overall height went to (some of it obviously went to add ground clearance).
With the strut towers being heavily modified, there's obviously more cargo space now so if you get the chance to measure that also it would be a bonus but otherwise, we can wait for Joe Spitz to update his excellent website
-Frank
Overall I had mixed feelings. Styling is fine. Not great, but not offensive. Since it looks like most other mini-utes, it will sell well. Interior is nice, but some of the plastics still look cheap. Suprisingly, the car I like the most was the new Impreza Outback with the black grill and roof rails.
http://www.subaru.com/sub/misc/2009/forester/index.html
Seems like a good portion of the instrument gauge cluster is just wasted space below the tach and below the fuel gauge.
-Frank
Bob
While I prefer a gauge, it just doesn't draw your attention as well as an obnoxious light when their really is an issue.
DaveM
P.S. I wonder where they got the "Member Since" date for me? I have my Town Hall registration email and it's dated 5/28/1998. :surprise:
Why does Subaru always jib the Americans?
The non turbos get the idiot light and no SI-drive.
As was mentioned above most "gauges" are idiot lights these days with a few settings on them.
-mike
Motorsports and Modifications Host
Bob
I'm curious to see what the "Sage Green" looks like. I really liked the LLB Evergreen Metallic, but I guess it must not have been a big seller if it's out for '09. As for the light blue color of seen in many photos, it also seems odd to show a color at a US show and then not have it available for sale here.
I'm still not wild about the new swoopy interior - like the available tech upgrades (steering wheel controls, e.g.), but I like the interior of my '05 Baja Turbo (w/leather) much better. I don't know why a black leather interior isn't available for a white exterior - I think that's a much more attractive combo than white & beige (or white & gray). Ditto for some of the others exteriors, for that matter.
Either way, though, I'll probably wait for the 2010 model - by then, my Baja will have @ 50K miles on it and any "first year" issues will have been addressed (plus there will possibly be new transmission options). But I'm itching for a new Subaru now!
-mike
Motorsports and Modifications Host
Sage Green is the color of the Forester on this SOA Forester micro-site.
http://www.subaru.com/sub/misc/2009/forester/index.html
Bob
Annapolis Subaru will have an '09 for viewing next Saturday from noon to 2 pm. I doubt I'll make the trip, but the thought has crossed my mind.
http://www.cars101.com/subaru/forester/forester2008.html
2009 measurements, with my tape measure. Note I attempted to catch the same measurements, but the exact location used may vary from theirs. FWIW, here goes (all measures in inches, most rounded):
A - was 36, now 40
B - was 53.5, now 52. Note there are pockets so something like an umbrella might get as much as 62" of width
C - was 41.5, now 42
D - was 37.5, now 43
E - was 46.5, now 45.5
F - was 53.25, now 48
Those are all width related. Basically it's more square and consistent. While some measures are smaller, the 09 will fit boxy items better, the wheel wells intrude much less basically.
G - was 13, now 17. The wheel well is taller, but not nearly as wide, basically.
H - was 31.5, now a whopping 36 inches. Huge gains in floor length.
I - was 62 before, now 67 inches, again big gains in cargo length
J - was 32.25, remains the same, I got 32" rounded off
K - was 34", now 31.5". Less height in some places, perhaps the cargo floor is higher?
L - was 31, now 30.5", about the same useful height with a moonroof
Those are the hard numbers from my tape measure.
Basically the cargo floor (length/width) is identical to the CR-V, and actually beats the RAV4 by an inch in one dimesion (tie in the other). So the area to stack your cargo matches or beats those. There is a bit less cargo height, however. But you can't stack groceries, so useful space is quite good.
* love the soft, perforated leather. A+
* middle seat in back is *not* comfortable if you get the cubby & armrest
* 4 grab handles, one for each door
* doors are wider, plus they open wider, for easier ingress/egress
* still has the huge moonroof I loved, 28" x 28" opening
* finally true padding for the armrests on the doors
* hood struts make the old prop rods seem cheap
Cons? 4EAT, like we knew. The carpets are a little thin. The headliner is peach fuzz, though at least the texture is OK. The sun visor is hard plastic, I hope that does not make production. Looks durable, but cheap.
The wife pretty much made up her mind, if it drives nice she wants one.
Her only concern is the middle seat in the back - we car pool kids and she wonders if it's uncomfy. She may want a model without that cubby/armrest, i.e. a more basic model. Does the premium package model get that? She thinks she may prefer a seat that accomodates 3 better.
OK, now on to some more measures I took. There was no 08 to compare them to, so I'll try to explain where I put my tape measure is someone wants to compare theirs.
Knee room - 8", from the front edge of the rear seats to the back edge of the front seat. The cushion seems longer, though.
Total room at knee level - 28", this is from the seat back to the back edge of the front seat.
Head rest to head rest: 32". This is the space between them.
Rear seat width: 51" between arm rests, 56" at shoulder level (min.)
Front seat width: 52" between arm rests, 56" at shoulders
Front seat length: 34" from the top of the glove box door to the seat back
Lastly, the steering wheel sits about 25" away from the brake pedal. The tilt mechanism moves the steering up and down over a range of about 1.5". Note that the distance to the brake pedal actually remains the same, it just changes the angle.
OK, those are the hard numbers
For me, I'm 6' tall, 205 lbs, 30" inseam. Front leg room was plentiful, as is head room (not even close to an issue, I could wear a hat).
Rear leg room is still not abundant, but with the front passenger seat all the way back, and reclined to a comfortable position, my knees did not touch the front seats. Before, on my 98, they would. Big time. Figure at least 2" gain or so there, maybe even more.
I compared other compact crossovers. The Jeep Patriot has a lot less rear leg room. The Forester is about even with the Rogue, i.e. enough for me to get comfortable without asking the front passenger to slide the seat forward. The CR-V, RAV4, and Santa Fe had a little extra room.
I peeked at the VW Tiguan and it had OK leg room but a tiny, tiny cargo area, so overall I'd say it is smaller than the Forester. The Infiniti EX is absolutely tiny. Way less space than a Forester. The RD-X also seemed smaller to me.
So it's not big, but now falls square in the middle of the class, and I don't think it will be called small any more.
I also took cargo measures, but that will go in the next post...
Compass: so small I didn't bother to measure
Patriot: 39 wide, 33 long, 28 high
Rogue: 43, 37, 29
RAV4: 42, 36, 37
Santa Fe: 45, 41, 32
CR-V: 42, 37, 36
Forester: 42, 37, 32
Outlander: 38, 38, 35
CX7: 42, 40, 30
Vue: 38, 37, 29
Tiguan: it was closed, but seemed to be the tiniest of all
Infiniti EX: also tiny, so I did not measure (no rear leg room at all, either)
The verdict?
Forester ties for 2nd widest cargo floor.
Forester ties for 4th longest cargo floor.
Even in height, the weakest link, it still came in 4th.
So good packaging means it's small outside, big inside. Plus, it's boxy. I should have measured from the back of the rear head rest to the rear window, because I bet the boxy rear end would help it stay near the top of the class in that regard, too.
Plus, by far it has the best visibility in the class. Driving the Rogue is like wearing a blind fold. The Infiniti EX is possibly worse. The CR-V also has issues there, with a big blind spot. The RAV4 has blind spots, but it wasn't as bad as I thought. The Outlander also had blind spots.
We came away liking the Forester and the Santa Fe, plus my wife also liked the RAV4. She found the CR-V to be hideous, and the Rogue was "an egg" in her words. She didn't like the Outlander/RAV4 D-pillar shape.
2009 Forester seems a likely addition to our fleet. :shades:
-mike
Motorsports and Modifications Host
Did you take any pictures?
Am holding off any further Subie considerations until a test drive in the XT version is possible later this year.
And I keep asking myself, what's the advantage of the Outback at this point, other than a little nicer trim inside?
I may swing by the Baltimore show (2/7 -2/10) rather than check out the one on display this coming Saturday at Annapolis Subaru, but I admit I'm antsy to see one soon even though I know I won't buy one, if I do at all, until the 2010 models are out.
I'm still thinking about a 24-month lease on an '08 LLB, which will take me close to the year-end clearance on the 2010 models. OTOH, I admit I'm not sure how I'll take to giving up the turbo on my Baja for an NA Forester (plus I'll take a hit on a trade - it's a niche vehicle). But for the inconvenience of the heavy (and water-resistant, but non-watertight) bed cover, I'd hang onto the Baja for another year or two (and still might). It's a hassle to load groceries into the Baja's back seat in tight parking lots, hence my considering a change for something with a gate (hatch). Otherwise, the Baja Turbo has been a delight to drive and has a great & comfy (leather pkg) interior. A local dealer does have an '08 XT Ltd on its lot, which I might check out as an alternative to the LLB, tho' I'm definitely not going to buy an '08.
I think the advantage of the Outback post-remodeled Forester is slim, altho' I've always liked the OB. Definitely a nicer trim, but I don't think that's enough to justify the extra price (not to mention, for me personally, it seems kind of silly for a 1-person household to drive a big wagon, even tho' I've always liked the look).
I had offered but it seemed the people here were more interested in hard measurements rather than photos/video, and it was a bit much to do both with my small kids in tow.
If I see the one at White Flint this week I'll bring my camera.
PS I heard "I'd get this over an Outback" by a lot of people that were browsing the Forester. And there were lots of people.
Unless there's another '09 Forester at White Flint, Bob already posted pics of it at post #222 above -- but I'll repeat the link:
http://www.briansellscars.com/2009forester.html
I really don't like the gray interior (esp. the steering wheel). Of course, YMMV.
All European cars (e.g. Saab, Audi, Jaguar, Volvo, and Mercedes) in the US with exception of BMW come with integrated rear fog light/lamp. The rear fog light of Japanese cars has been purposely disabled, although the US regulations do not prevent the use of rear fog lights.
Second, I HATE when the european car drivers have them, mostly cause they don't know when to use them. Generally I will sit behind them with my highbeams on until they turn it off. VERY VERY annoying to other drivers when used inproperly, which most of them do, so I'm glad the Japanese cars don't have em.
-mike
Motorsports and Modifications Host
I remember reading somewhere the complaining of a BMW MINI owner when he said “until when Europe will continue thinking that Americans are a bunch of ignorant (not to say stupid)”, for not installed by default a rear fog light in each MINI vehicle in the pretexts that American do not know how to use a rear fog light. Certainly it is carelessly to use the rear fog light when the day is clear. However when the day has plenty of fogg, plenty of raining, plenty of falling snow a rear fog light is a must especially when the driver has a giant lorry behind. This is the traffic regulations given by California:
CALIFORNIA CODES
VEHICLE CODE
SECTION 24602
24602. (a) Any vehicle may be equipped with not more than two red fog tail lamps mounted on the rear which may be lighted, in addition to the required tail lamps, only when atmospheric conditions, such as fog, rain, snow, smoke, or dust, reduce the daytime or nighttimes visibility of other vehicles to less than 500 feet.
As I said, I'm glad that they aren't more widely available on USDM cars because 95% of the folks out there would/do use them all the time, and they are quite annoying to other drivers when conditions do not warrant the use of them.
-mike
Some cars in the US are set to light one of these lamps as a third brake light and it is generally located in the rear left of the car. In the Europe the rear left fog lamp must light while in the UK, Australia, New Zealand, Singapore (RHD) the rear right fog lamp must light. So this is the reason of having two extra cavities in the rear bumper of the car.
On Subies it's integrated into one of the rear tail lights, and not the reflector in the lower bumper.
Check out the image of this UK-spec Impreza. The right rear tail light has an extra spot of red in the right rear tail light (on the hatch) which is the rear fog light.
http://imwww.imgroup.co.uk/IMGGB/WWW/subaru_co_uk.nsf/PlayMedia?ReadForm&unid=C1- 2F961E8FDCAA6F8025734B003774B6
Bob
Could someone inform if the light (low/high beam) and front fog light combination in the 2009 Forester is in a stalk multi-function switch by the steering column or the front fog light is activated by using a separate toggle switch in the panel?
2004-2008 Forester --- 2009 Forester
Knee room (from the front edge of the rear seats to the back edge of the front seat)
7" --- 8"
Total room at knee level (from the seat back to the back edge of the front seat)
26" --- 28"
Head rest to head rest:
29.5" --- 32"
Rear seat width (between arm rests):
51" --- 51"
At shoulder level:
54" --- 56"
Front seat width (between arm rests):
51" --- 52"
At shoulder level:
54" --- 56"
Front seat length (from the top of the glove box door to the seat back):
29" --- 34"
A bit dissapointing that there wasn't a bigger gain in rear legroom and it's a little odd that the distance between the armrests didn't change while the width at the shoulder level grew by 2 inches :confuse:
-Frank
Sounds like the cushion is roughly an inch longer, and it gains about 2" in rear legroom. For me that was enough that my knees would rub the back of the seat before, but they don't now.
I bet some infant car seats also fit better without having to move the front seat forward. It's still not a limo, but that 2" gain may be the difference between "enough" and "not enough".
Also, we should factor in that the front seat length made big gains - 5" bigger if we measured the same way. So it might not be any sacrifice at all for that front passenger to slide the seat forward a couple of inches.
Plus the cargo area is a few inches longer. Sounds like they squeezed every inch out of the wheelbase gain and actually made it even a little bit more space efficient inside.
The armrests were nicely padded, so overall comfrot went up. I'm not sure if the door is thicker (crush space for protection?) or what.
Any how, basically it gets incremental improvements.
Remember that for 2000 (or was it 2003?) they claimed rear leg room was half an inch better. Now that was disappointing.
So this is not bad, IMHO.
Foresters got a lot of static for being just "tall station wagons", but in my mind, that was a good thing. Now that they have gone more mainstream, with a taller stance AND more ground clearance, inquiring minds want to know:
Are there ugly warning stickers on the visors of the 2009 Foresters? :lemon:
james
The bumpers in the USDM vehicles though may be entirely different than those of the JDM, UKDM, Etc. markets due to crash regulations.
Take the last generation Impreza, you could not simply swap over the JDM fog lights which were larger than the projector style ones that the USDM cars got due to the openings in the metal bumper behind the fascia was not large enough to house them. Same make be the case in the rear of the Forester.
If you feel you really need a rear fog light, they can be had on Summit Racing or Rallylights.com for less than $50
-mike
Motorsports and Modifications Host
I was thinking about leasing an '08 Forester for 2 years, but just found out that in MD, I would have to pay sales tax on the full MSRP, not just the lease payment amounts. Spread over two years (even tho' it might have to be paid at registration, I haven't figured that out, that would increase the monthly payment by almost 20-25% - rather than 6% of the payment (MD sales tax) - a penalty unacceptable to me. So much for that idea - I guess I'll hang on to my Baja until the '10 Foresters are available (I don't want to buy an '09).