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Comments
Some people may want a vehicle that is lower to the ground. The Forester is a lot taller now.
Keep in mind the 2010 Outback is likely to grow. I expect it to be as big as the Tribeca, then the new Tribeca will get even bigger.
-mike
I'm just not impressed for a 25k 'upmarket' vehicle. No leather wrap steering wheel or shifter! Seriously! No more power drivers seat. No more fog lamps.
They REALLY decontented this thing. I would have rather not seen a price cut, because the features I mentioned, in addition to the deletion of climate control, are not available as options...you have to get the LL Bean which is really TOO upmarket for a lot of people budget wise.
I think Subaru really dropped the ball here in terms of packaging. The vehicle itself is impressive, the safety feature additions are neccessary, but if you currently have, say, a 2.5x Premium, and you want to trade it in for the same thing in a 2009, you now are losing quite a few features over what you have. That's not a winning equation for Subaru, especially because historically people just haven't wanted to pay extra just for safety, even though they should.
Observations:
More interior room in the Forester and easier to get in and out of (banged my head on the roof sill on the Outback, and I'm only 5' 7"). Forester had ample toe and leg room in back while Outback had very little (I have short legs). However, Outback has a more intimate feel and gives a little more accelerator foot room.
Interior fit and finish is nicer in the Outback. Carpet and trim seem of higher quality. However, Forester has much more storage space in center and doors.
I also heard a few rattles in the Outback, but none in the Forester.
On a near 45 degree soaking wet asphalt road hill, the Outback accelerated up the hill with no drama whatever. The Forester, however, went into a crazy dance on that same hill as all 4 wheels began skittering and clawing for traction - only when I let up on the throttle did it calm down.
The Outback proved the quieter of the two on the road (far less road noise), and seemed to have a more supple ride. The Forester was harsher on small bumps but not uncomfortable - it also cornered flatter and its handling responses were sharper.
In Sport Sharp mode the Outback throttle response had touchy tip in but it wasn't all that much more responsive than in Sport mode. Both Outback and Forester had "two stage" acceleration (initial followed by turbo surge) - Outback's was far more obvious and came later in the rev range.
I like the Foresters responsiveness and greater practicality, but the skittering on the hill is very worrysome. My __guess__ is the Forester, being 80% FWD balanced, lost front wheel traction on the hill and then went into a frenzy trying to either brake the spinning front wheels and send power to the rear wheels. The Outback, being 55% RWD balanced, was perfectly set up for that situation.
Any comments are welcomed as I plan to decide tomorow (trade in was very reasonable and the sales staff is forthright).
.
I suspect on soft road surfaces the "skittering" would not be as noticeable.
I was on hard, wet asphalt. Both cars were "cold tired" (engines were warmed up, though) when they tackled the hill.
The AWP option arrives in June, it's just sold seperately now.
The Premium model is what I would call value priced. The base X is the price leader. The LL Bean is upmarket.
Good points about the dropped features, I noticed the plastic steering wheel, too, though I want the LL Bean, which has it. Just keep in mind they added a more sophisticated rear suspension, Sportshift, windows frames, VDC, and side curtain air bags. Those are expensive additions.
Perhaps it did not bother me because I'm looking at an LL Bean. By the way, with VIP pricing it's right around that $25 grand price you mentioned.
I didn't notice, but what tires are mounted? In the past they've used SUV tires that definitely aren't as sporty as what's used on the Outback.
You noticed the lack of body roll, too. That impressed me also.
The Outback's AWD system is superior, push come to shove, plus the better tires are what you probably noticed.
I think the Forester would shine if you had tested it on a hilly, gravel road, where the angles of approach and departure are better than the Outback's. Maybe climing a dirt hill, too, with the all terrain tires.
Tough call. If you stay on pavement you could get pavement-oriented tires for the Forester when it's time to replace the OE ones. My guess is that would nearly level the playing field.
Do you like sitting up high? In my van I can see traffic up ahead. In my Miata I can actually see the underside of most cars, so I can check out rear suspensions and rear differentials (if present).
Perfect timing. :shades:
My bet would be that the FWD/RWD balance played a role, but that the different tires were the major player. The stock Outback tires are decent on wet surfaces, okay on ice, and horrible in the snow. For the Forester, I could not say, but I suspect performance on both cars would improve dramatically with some decent rubber.
-mike
Cliff Notes: I think it's the tire pressure followed by the tires themselves that made the traction difference.
Subaru of America described their AWD systems to me and while they had no answer for the skittering I encountered, it sounds like the Outback has a better handle on Torque management (the Forester seems totally reliant on wheel braking for side-side torque shift, while outback has a couple of extras as well as braking).
Yeah, it's a very tough call. I like the Forester room and responsiveness, and the Outback's quiet refinement and pose. But if '09 Forester hill skitter shows up again on a followup drive, it's all over and the Outback wins for me. I have to drive this vehicle on ice during the winter and the last thing I need is an AWD car skittering and possibly tearing its drive to pieces trying to control wheel spin.
Possibly that vehicle I drove was a dog?
If you can afford to wait til the 2010 Legacy/Outback come out I would definitely do so, you will like the refinement and the size a lot.
-mike
Yuck! That's why I don't like VDCs. They can be too intrusive. I bet a non-VDC equipped Forester wouldn't have had any problems with that hill :P With the rear LSD, it should be perfectly capable of handling the side-to-side transfer of power as well as the front-to-rear.
-Frank
Yes, '10 seems to be a watershed year for Subaru and a whole bunch of players, but I have another winter to get through before then and I will also be loosing the warranties on my Maxx early next year (and the Maxx will be expensive to maintain without those).
So I can't wait for the new Outback no matter how good it is.
So per your earlier comments, Paisan, and assuming the same tires on both cars, is the Outback going to outdo the Forester wrt traction on nearly all roads ? I don't plan to be doing extensive off roading (so approach/departure's not a huge issue), but will be doing some long trips on interstates.
Given the same tires, you should not notice a difference in terms of winter traction between the 2 IMO. I do suggest a set of snow tires as they are really worth it even on subies. I currently have a set of Nokia Hakkapolita GTs on my wagon and it was real good in the few snow storms we had. I would definitely not buy the outback over the forester solely based on the winter traction, however the Forester may be the way to go for yah.
-mike
The Outback XT is not as frisky, nor as roomy (front storage space is close to ridiculous), but seems very solid and assured. It feels like it's __on__ the road while the Forester's on __top__ of the road. And the interior reminds me of an Audi, but warmer.
Perhaps it's like choosing between a frisky colt, or a complacent stallion? Both are good in their own way.
Ironically, my Maxx is solidly in the middle between these two, though of course it lacks AWD and has proven uninspiring or useless on winter roads here.
That is what Motor Trend is claiming. If so sounds like a very nice improvement (correct me if wrong, but twin scroll turbos are claimed to have faster response / less lag ).
By comparison, does the Outback uses a single scroll turbo?
I never understood the pricing structure in the past, either. Why was it that when an incentive was offered, the base model got $1500-2000 while the premium only got $500-750. It seems to me that a lot of profit was built in to the premium pricing. Now, that will be even more so.
Impreza Product General Manager, Akihide Takeuchi said otherwise in an interview in Automotive Engineering International in Oct 2007. "It is a delightful turbo; no more of that sudden bang"..."A new compressor scroll section helps achieve this low- and mid-speed torque increase. Mitsubishi Heavy Industries (MHI) vs. IHI now supplies the turbocharger "at a delightful lower cost" added Takeuchi.
Bob
-mike
Daytime, No rain, same big hill and this time a narrow, twisty road was the drive course. I also saw that the big hill had all kinds of potholes in it, previously hidden by the night rain during the first drives.
The Forester felt tight going up the hill and skittered a bit on the potholes, but really came into its own on the narrow road, where it fell very controllable and poised. Bumps were basically one hit with no after bounce. The Outback as before handled the hill with less skitters but wallowed on the undulations. On the winding road it felt heavy, leaning more in the turns and definitely bobbed after some of the bumps.
Once the drives were done, and sitting in one model's power seat, it was all over - a Forester XT with all the options was dealer-traded from Salem, and that is what I drove home this evening. I'm gonna have to change my user name soon.
FYI the Forester proved quieter inside on Oregon's roads than my Maxx was. The Outback was quieter still.
The Lithia folks were excellent and I highly recommend anyone near Oregon City wanting a Subaru to give these folks a try.
-mike
Bob
Some other observations before I forget:
The Forester I got had landed in Vancouver, WA., and had been shipped to Capitol Subaru in Salem. What is truly ironic is Capitol was the __first__ Subaru dealer I had visited, and almost a match for Lithia in terms of policies. What sunk Capitol was their refusal to offer the Subaru Gold plan.
The Outbacks I drove had noticeable drive train lash, and routinely made clunks (usually soft, sometimes loud) while being accelerated or braked. The Foresters by comparison seem to have no drive train lash. The lack of Lash was a factor in my decision.
Additional observations (the car is an XT Limited):
The tires and wheels look huge. And given how tall the car is, its ability not to lean much in turns is very impressive.
The automatic air conditioning system has larger center vents, and seems to move more air, than the manual system in the other XT.
The radio sound system seems competent but nothing special.
Interior cabin lights are decent. There are a few LED accent lights around the cabin in various nooks and crannies.
No seat covers can be used on the leather seats as they would interfere with the side airbags installed in the top of the seat back.
The trim, frankly, is kinda chintzy for a nearly $30K car and no match for the Honda CRV, but it's about equal to the Toyota RAV4.
Anyway, I didn't buy this car for the trim
That's the bad thing about purchasing foreign cars ; most of their innovative stuff never gets here.
About those sun visors, by sliding back on their rails, I meant that do they extend backwards, towards the B-pillar, on their brackets,* once swung out from above the windshield, to cover that annoying gap that the sun always seems to find? Don't go researching this too heavily, though, since I'm taking my '03 Forester in for its 61K service soon and will take a test drive of '09 while there - and dutifully report my findings so fellow nitpickers can be fully informed.
_____
*GO TOREROS!
kurt,
The article was in reference to the US 2.5l engine with turbo as installed in the Impreza.(Which should include the Forester)
However, it seems unlikely that the 08 models other than all new Impreza have the new turbo from MHI.
dave
Just wanted to make sure... :shades:
I actually couldn't disagree more. Climate control is a must have for me. Just another example of different strokes for different folks. :surprise
However, Subaru darkened the upper edge of the windshield's center so hopefully that will keep the sun at bay.
other notes:
The Auto AC has manual options, so you can set it and forget it, or adjust to your taste. It also has cabin air filtering and (I believe) more air flow than the base unit.
Still, it's not cheap.
As a side note, Subaru switches off the AC compressor if you have to accelerate hard.
The upgraded 6 speaker audio system hides the tweeters behind a black mesh grille in the front-most frame of the doors, just above window sill and next to the A pillars.
Finally, the "Sport shift" trans actually has 3 modes: Drive, Sport, and Manual. Sport (shift lever moved to left + / - slot) changes the transmission shift points for sportier response, while moving lever to + or - lets you change gears manually.
With that in mind I am impressed with the offroad abilities of the 2009 Forester on Catalina Island I saw in this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ki9ad5UCmwo
I doubt that many if any of the competition I mentioned can go up a hill like that. I want something safe for my wife to drive as well. I am nervous about her driving the Trooper on fast highway driving. It's not the best vehicle for emergency maneuvers. I have had to perform a couple emergency maneuvers in the Trooper myself, and for sure it's no sports car. Pretty scary. But I think something that handles better like a Subaru Forester and has 5 star crash ratings and 4 star for rollover would be safer and still have the necessary utility.
The dealer down the street has a 2008 LLBean in the showroom Sticker MSRP is approximately $27,500 and they have a tag in the window with a discount price of $24,500. I spent some time with the car, sitting in the front, the back, checking out the quality of construction, etc. I also note that I found a Texas Subaru dealer on Ebay offering a new 2008 LLBean for $22,565. Seems like a good deal. I don't know if I could get my local dealer to match that price. The dealer also has a 2009 Forester on the lot with Premium Package. Well, the 2009 is bigger, the seats seem more comfortable. I like that it has more legroom in the back seat. I like that it has the radio control buttons on the steering wheel. I would like to see the 2009 Forester LLBean model for a better comparison. My wife thinks that the 2009 is "better looking" that the 2008. I have to agree, but I also think that the 2008 was more unique compared to the other small sport utes.
So, is it better to snag a deal on the outgoing 2008 LLBean or wait and get a 2009? Do any of you feel that the new model has lost the old Subaru rough and rugged feel? Or does it still have it and it's just gotten better? From what I am seeing on YouTube videos and reading postings here, the 2009 is at least as capable. It would be great to hear from owners of the 2003 - 2008 models that have or are considering the 2009. What are your thoughts regarding the superiority or inferiority of the 2009. And is it worth the extra dough to get the newer model? If you were a first time buyer knowing what you know, would you get the 2008 with the current discounts or the 2009? I think Subaru is offering $2,000 off + 0% financing. Will Subaru begin to offer incentives on the 2009's once all of the 2008's are gone? The salesman said that they usually sell Subaru's for about $500 over invoice.
Also is it better to get the XT? The salesman suggested that he thinks the normally aspirated engine is better because it's fast enough and it doesn't need premium gas like the XT does. I do like the look of the hood scoop on the XT. Give the car a meaner look.
Come to think of it, all you really need for temperature monitoring is someway of indicating that the engine is cold, normal, or hot. I can't remember ever seeing a guage that showed the actual temperature.
My understanding is the '09 Powertrain is pretty much the same as the '08 save for Sportshift, VDC (which helps control wheelspin) and various suspension improvements. If you need the extra space and would like the nicer trim, the '09 might be best way to go.
Wrt incentives, Subaru is offering good ones on the '08's, but given the '09's just came out, I doubt there will be anything huge there. I did get a discount under MSRP and a decent trade when I got my '09 Forester XT Limited.
What do these do?
2. In the passanger compartment footwell, there is a plastic cover protecting heater fan, glovebox underside, etc.
But on driver side, there is absolutely nothing preventing feet from kicking into wiring, sharp metal, or other stuff under the dash.
Is there supposed to be a plasic cover or shield in that area? I see screw and clamp holes for fastening one in place.
Sounds like you've got a pretty good grasp as to the differences between the '08 and '09 models. My recommendation: Go with the '09 model, as it is sooooo much better in just about every way. In the long run I think you'll be happier.
My choice for the Forester would be the the turbo XT. That's because I drive a WRX, which has the same engine. Since I'm used to the turbo in that vehicle, the non-turbo models just seem weak. Yes, the non-turbos have reasonable power under normal circumstances. However, if you need extra power for highway passing the turbo is much, MUCH better. Turbos also lose less power in the mountains, if that's important.
The downsides to the turbo:
• It "requires" premium gas.
• Oil needs to be changed every 3,750 miles, whereas the non-turbo can go 7,500 miles between changes.
• You may lose about 2-3 mpg over the non-turbo. Of course that depends on how you drive.
I would say drive both the turbo and and non-turbo, and then decide. You may discover the non-turbo to be just fine, as do a lot of people. Again, the main advantage to the turbo is passing power on the highway and the ability to maintain speed on long hills.
One final comment: Don't expect the Forester to match your Trooper's off road prowess. I won't. It's a pretty good for this type of vehicle, in fact I'd say it's the best of the small CUVs. If you want better off road capability with a small SUV, I'd say go with the Suzuki Grand Vitara, as that vehicle has genuine off-road ability. It also has a low-range and full-time 4WD.
Bob
Still, I am keeping an eye on my mileage and will report once I go through a few tankfulls of gas.
FYI, The sport mode of the 4-speed does seem to make the vehicle more responsive. Apparently Subaru did a very good job matching the engine to the 4-speed trans.
Also, though '09 Foresters seem very capible at Catalina Island, there are absolutely no skid pans or any protection under the car. Getting hung up on a rock could tear your exhaust system out. No surprise as the Forester was never intended to be the ultimate off-road vehicle. Driver beware ! :surprise:
XT Limited, then? Did you get the GPS, too?
We'll probably get an LL Bean, for the lower operating costs. Bob mentioned passing in the mountains is better w/turbo but ours will be mostly for local driving, as we have the minivan for longer road trips. The wife will mostly commute in it, and we'd use it for errands and local stuff, plus in snow and rain.
My dealer has a couple of LL Beans in stock. I'm still waiting to line up the VIP pricing thing.
Congrats again!
More than enough for most people. Only the hard core will need more capability than that.
Between an 08 and 09, what I would say is, long term, that $1500 won't seem like much. You'll get a chunk of it back on resale, too. Even if you didn't, over 7.5 years or so that's just $200/year more, or $17 a month.
Get the 09.
Coming from a Trooper, the 08 will seem cramped. The 09 will still be smaller, but I don't think it's cramped.
Getting a bargain is good, but getting the better vehicle, that you like more and will enjoy more for several years in to the future, is even better. :shades:
My Exterior color's white peral - not their prettiest color but I was determined to have a cool car in summer (I discovered anything other than White gets hot in the sun).
Also, '09 Forester has heater vents under the front seats (2 for each seat). Another nice touch. :shades:
Also, the handling of the Turbo seems to be as good as the Audi A3 3.2 I drove some time ago, but Forester has way more ground clearance and ability to handle bad roads (My guess is the Oregon City Hill the Forester and Outbacks easilly drove over would tear out the underside out of the A3 3.2 ).
One thing you might do when you look at Foresters is to discover if you can see underdash wiring and components on the driver side. There is a cover on the passanger side footwell, but not on the Driver side of my Forester.
I thought about the GPS anyway for the big screen, but feedback is only so-so and you're right about it being expensive. Plus no backup cam. The stereo is better, but that's about it.
I love the pearl white. Wish my wife did, but nope.
I'll peek at the wires under the dash. I didn't notice them in my test drive, but I wasn't looking, either.
I've never bought a Subaru from Fitz, but have bought other cars and they're fantastic to deal with.
Frankly, that bodes pretty well for the future. If my mom decides to go with the 2009 (leaning that way, ironically because of color combos--she loves Newport Blue but hates the beige interior), then I'll wait this out several months and see if they slap an incentive on these things and then shoot for invoice - incentive. Probably will be until mid-to late summer until that happens, but if its a good enough incentive, I'd like to get her in an LL Bean so she gets auto climate control.
To weigh in on that debate, btw---its one of those features that when you have it, at least for me, I'd never do without it again. I always had a hard time getting the "right" temp on my cars and always would fiddle--turn on AC, get cold, have to turn on heat, get hot, and so on. Ever since auto climate, its never been an issue. LOVE it.
I have...
but have bought other cars and they're fantastic to deal with.
Yes they are. The Subaru store is no different. We bought our Legacy there. My dad got his Outback, my sister got her Forester, and finally my brother got his Legacy there.
I love it - no surprises.