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Mitsubishi Outlander vs. Subaru Forester
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Comments
Usually sales are compared to the same month a year prior, and then YTD vs. the year prior.
sales were up 11.4 percent compared to December 2008
That's a good sign, but per Automotive News:
Overall, December sales of 1,030,096 light vehicles rose 15 percent from December 2008
So minus the PR spin, the Outlander actually lost a little bit of market share compared to the old model a year ago.
Having said that, if demand for the GT is hot as you mentioned earlier, it'll take time to adjust the production lines to output more of those. It could take a couple of months to adjust.
It is an encouraging sign after a dismal November.
http://www.mpt.org/motorweek/carkeys/02.shtml
This part made me go "HUH?"
Inside, dash and doors don synthetic leather trim
The Outlander GT Prototype is loaded with premium features like grained synthetic leather, double stitching and generous chrome accents that raise the bar on CUV luxury
http://www.mitsubishicars.com/MMNA/jsp/company/concepts.do
That sheds new lights on this post:
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f185114/849#MSG849
Quote from it:
Forester is not suppose to have leather dash. It has plastic dash appropriate to the price
As it turns out, neither does the Outlander. :P
As it turns out, neither does the Outlander.
Well it's obvious there were no New Years resolutions regarding minutiae
Oh well......
$45K Mercedes GLK has plastic dash instrument panel, while the $29K Outlander comes with double-stitched leather instrument panel
But even if it's not really leather, "grained synthetic leather" sounds so much nicer than calling it what it really is... plastic :P
-Frank
http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100105/RETAIL01/100109984/1- 400#
Automaker 12/09 12/08 Pct. chng. 2009, 2008, Pct. chng.
Mitsubishi 4,357 4,570 –5% 53,986 97,257 –44%
Subaru 23,074 17,287 33% 216,652 187,699 15%
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f185114/849#MSG849
Quote from it: Forester is not suppose to have leather dash. It has plastic dash appropriate to the price. As it turns out, neither does the Outlander.
.
"This part made me go HUH?"
1. I've never said the Outlander has genuine leather dash. But even if synthetic leather, it is still a double-stitch leather and not molded plastic. Mercedes sells M-Class, GLK class and others with synthetic leather seats and which is hard to tell and it feels luxurious. The Mercedes dash however is a molded plastic and feels cheaper.
2. My post 849 of Dec 1 only suggests that Forester doesn't have a leather dash, which is true. I also suggested that it's not suppose to have leather dash at that price, which is also true.
3. And actually the funniest thing is that you are the one who said first on this board that Outlander has leather dash. In message 769 on Nov 20 "Leather on the dash looks great".
O-o-ps you did it again on Nov 29 post 829: "The leather dash is a nice upgrade, and it runs across the dash an into the tops of the door panels."
So you've mentioned "leather" here first and at least twice before I did. Then what's a problem? I saw the GT interior only on pictures, but you have inspected it in person back in November reporting to us "The leather dash is a nice upgrade, and it runs across the dash an into the tops of the door panels".
.
>> he was really rubbing that in our faces, turns out he was wrong all along.
"HUH"? Are you going to apologize or what???
Nice try but it's still PLASTIC. It may look and feel better than a molded plastic dash but regardless of whether you call it plastic, vinyl or double-stitched synthetic leather , it's still made from petroleum distillates :P
-Frank
http://forums.motivemag.com/zerothread?id=4614545
jwaters943 wrote "Leather trimmed dash".
Now we know he should have written "Vinyl trimmed dash".
Yes I repeated that here first and I'm happy to have been wrong.
And remember mine was covered in plastic, and had not been PDI'd yet. I even thought it was a pre-production model.
synthetic leather, it is still a double-stitch leather and not molded plastic
You should have written it this way:
synthetic leather, it is still a double-stitch vinyl which is a plastic
Vinyl is a type of plastic:
http://www.whatisvinyl.com/
I am sorry that the Outlander GT turns out to have its dash wrapped in a type of plastic.
Wrong.
Remember this discussions started in the Crossover thread, in fact the hosts moved posts here and asked us to continue the same discussion here.
Well, a quick search reveals psychogun was actually the first to bring it up:
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f114238/7004#MSG7004
stitched leather surfaces on the doors and the dash.
So psychogun was first. Way back in September.
If you want to tow 3500lbs with the Outlander, you will need to go with one of the 3.0l V6 trims,4WD, and also purchase the towing package
Is that right? You need to add a package?
Here is a pic of an after market unit, The factory unit is somewhat similar, but beefier
and here is a zoomed in pic of the factory unit and ball mount, but I don't recommend using the ball mount shown if you wish to lower the tailgate with the trailer connected (could just barely interfere as my trailer did, so I used an inverted U-Haul unit that also extends.(flip the shown unit over to raise the ball)
<img src="http://www.etrailer.com/merchant2/graphics/00000001/pics/4/5/45122.jpg
link">http://tinyurl.com/oem-hitch
I was just asking, so thanks for clarifying.
">link titlehttp://www.subarupartsmall.com/product_info.php?cPath=24_88&products_id=3051
As for oil coolers, etc, that depends on the vehicle. My Dakota also had a beefier radiator and power steering cooler as part of the tow package (but that was rated 6800 lbs). I believe that the extra cooling is part of the 4WD on Outlander (required for towing 3500 lbs)
I compared Sienna vs. Ody and Honda's dirty little secret was that you needed to add not one but two oil coolers for towing, the 2nd for the power steering pump. This is on top of the hitch and harness, of course.
If you bought an Ody off the lot that didn't have it, you couldn't just bolt on a hitch. That's a lot of labor, too, beyond the parts needed, to install those two oil coolers.
Sienna had that standard - back in 2007.
For 2008 they made it a stand-alone option. To me that's cost-cutting, and hidden cost cutting at that. They added more visible content like Bluetooth that same year (MY2008), but I'll take a beefed up powertrain over BT anyday.
One is a copy cat offered at a lower price - the other one is the real thing with an AWD system unmatched regarding cost of ownership - maint- simplicity and proven to be quite good.
Not to mention one of them has always from day one been at the top of the crash safety list the other one not so much.
One last thing Mitsubishi has been busted a few times for faulty parts - hiding the fact of the faulty parts - not issuing recalls when they should be done and to top it off it doesn't have a reliability rating anywhere close to the Subaru.
If price is not really a big issue why in the hell would anyone even look at a Mitsubishi?
More than a few reasons.
First off for me the Forester was too small when I was looking in 2007. The light finally went on for them with the new Forester, but for years they were cars that got OK mileage, but consider the size.
If we're talking today you can consider that Mitsu is giving a great bumper to bumper and powertrain warranty to ease ones fears. Maybe Subaru is slightly safer (roof) , but not by much when you look at the whole field,
Third: not everyone fits in the same cookie cutter. If one is blindly Subaru loyal that's fine, but the market is changing all the time. I chose what fit my needs at that point in time and for thousands less than the Subaru at that time. I'll run this vehicle into the ground and evaluate the whole field as it exists in maybe 2017 (if the comet doesn't get here first like the Mayans say) Who knows,maybe it will be a Subaru when the next time comes, but that vehicle isn't built yet and hopefully they will keep up the evolution in line with the competition and not rest on their laurels , i.e. like the size thing of the past.
Actually, I kinda wish they'd kept the Forester the same size.
Automakers have been slowly but surely growing their models for years to meet the constant demand for more size ("super-size me"). Look at the Accord and Camry, remember back when they were small compact sedans? Now they've more than been replaced by what use to be sub-compacts (Civic & Corolla) and there's a whole new generation of sub-compacts to fill the void (Fit & Venza). Same goes for SUVs. The old Ford Explorer was small compared to today's model. So Ford came out with the Escape. In a few years, when the Escape grows too big, Ford will no doubt come out with a new compact SUV.
-Frank
Anyone that buys a Ford Escape right now should be enrolled in a HS economics class again. It's ancient tech - and being phased out which it should have been phased out 4 years ago. Ford should be ashamed of selling it given it doesn't compete with any rival at any level.
The American companies have failed miserably in managing their "Brand Image" it doesn't matter how good of a product you have if your Brand image is bad you have some major issues! It's easier to design a good vehicle than it is to change everyone's perception of your brand.
As such when you have a very old product or a very poor product continuing to sell it simply damages your brand image.
Given the cost of vehicles today and the fast and easy information via the internet you basically commit brand suicide if you do not own up to faulty products or continue to sell products that simply do not compete with competitors.
The New Buick's might actually be great cars but no way in hell I will ever own something with a Buick badge on it. Again brand image and in GM's case really bad brand image management.
Remember the previous Outlander?
Having said that, the Forester is still under 180", which is shorter than a Chevy Cobalt. They've also kept weight under control, which helps every aspect of performance, and economy too.
The Equinox went from having an ancient Chinese-built pushrod V6 to a pair of direct injection engines with both good power and fuel efficiency. It's attractive inside and out. Now if only they can put the rest of the car on a diet.
MyFord Touch is the leader in Infotainment. Lincoln just won awards from JD Powers for the best Navi systems, and they didn't rest on their laurels - the new system go well beyond what Sync could do. They're showing them off at CES now, and they sure look cool.
Competition improves the breed, and that's a good thing.
The Outlander fits in my garage even with the hatch open & garage door closed so for me it's not too long at all. My garage is a 2-car garage. Not 2.5, not longer or wider than needed (I actually wish it was wider to allow room for garden equipment). Just a basic box attached to the house.
(I never warmed to that nose on the Outlander or any other Mitsu that sported a similar grill center.)
As for size, I have the van when I want acres of space, so we wanted something compact that could still carry a family of 4, but was easy to maneuver, park, and good with gas.
An around town alternative to the big van, basically.
Edit: I'm not saying the Outlander is too big per se, just a bit on the heavy side. It's actually not big enough to be my primary trip vehicle, because we'll often take our nanny, and it's rare to find a comfortable 5th seat (sit on the "hump" and you'll see it's hard and your head rubs the ceiling if you're tall).
Different strokes for different folks...
In 2009, the depreciation rate for all used vehicles from the model years 2005 through 2008 was 8.5 percent, Kelley says. But used Subarus for those years actually increased in value 1.3 percent, Kelley says. Audi vehicles lost only 1.9 percent of their value, while the value of Mercedes vehicles fell 3.3 percent.
Read more: http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100111/RETAIL04/100109902/1- - 132#ixzz0cKJ6QiE8
Those were the top 3, so Subaru was the only brand to actually gain value.
:shades:
CGI S-AWC demo video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5PlPHWR308
Ford's demo even let them say names of songs for Pandora to play. The appeal here being you get music on-demand, plus it's totally free.
Ford just swept the North American Car/Truck of the year awards, so they're on somewhat of a roll lately.
“In the last 12 months, they’ve made some dramatic improvements to their product line, sales have been relatively strong and the products deserve them,” said Jeff Bartlett, Consumer Reports’ deputy online editor, who was an author of the survey.
“The cars are good,” he said. “They’ve improved the fuel economy while making the cars bigger, and they’re not more expensive. They’re really hitting on a lot of the magic hot buttons.”
Example: the base model was about $1200 cheaper, but the 2008 model had a $2000 rebate. That amounts to an $800 price increase for the super-sized 2009 model.
It's a strategy that has worked. They can advertise low prices that draw people in to showrooms. The lack of rebates has helped boost residual values for new cars (meaning good lease deals) as well as used Subaru prices.
Mitsubishi has a display on Electric Avenue. I wonder if the i-Miev is there?
http://www.naias.com/the-2010-show/exhibitor-list.aspx
Last year Mitsu didn't show up.
Mitsu, Porsche and Infinity call it “Synthetic Leather”
BMW – “Leatherette”
Mercedes – “MB-Tex Leather”.
Ateixteira – said “leather”
They all use the word “leather”, so it is leather, but if you want to call it PLASTIC, be my guest!
I guess it was too expensive, Frank, so you did not purchase LEATHER seating package for your Mercedes GLK, and based on your logic you seat on PLASTIC. Did you ever tell anyone that you have PLASTIC seats in your Mercedes? I didn’t think so, but please be consistent.
It’s odd that you drive “luxury” Mercedes which has PLASTIC seats and PLASTIC dash, while Fushigi is driving some Mitsubishi which has double-stitch LEATHER dash and genuine LEATHER seats.
All I “remember” is that you did not say that it was covered in plastic. After inspecting the car you said "The leather dash is a nice upgrade, and it runs across the dash an into the tops of the door panels." So are you saying you made it up?
>> You should have written it this way: synthetic leather, it is still a double-stitch vinyl which is a plastic. Vinyl is a type of plastic
What a discovery! You making it up again using your “deduction method”. Polyethylene is also type of plastic. So what? Not every type of synthetic leather contains vinyl. Many synthetic leathers instead of vinyl use one of these: acrylic, polyurethane, polyamide felt fiber, cork, microfiber, kelp, etc.
HUH? “forged pistons and the different turbo engine block”? I’ve never said that. I don’t even use this type of vocabulary. You however inspected the car and said twice that Outlander dash is leather, then you turn around and blame it on me saying
“he was really rubbing that in our faces, turns out he was wrong all along.”
That’s personal attack and you must apologize.
>> I am sorry that the Outlander GT turns out to have its dash wrapped in a type of plastic.
Not a proper way to apologize, but there is different grade plastic used on dashboard.
3. Hard plastic: Subaru, Toyota, Kia
2. Soft touch plastic: Benz GLK, BMW X3
1. Double-stitch synthetic leather: Outlander GT, Infinity, Lincoln MKS, Porsche 911
0. Genuine leather: Jaguar XF, Ferrari,
Synthetic leather used on cars is not equal to your Subaru molded hard plastic dash. Usually it is a nicely stitched composite of natural fabric covered with ‘breathable’ soft synthetic layer. My impression was actually that “leather dash” is just a shortcut or figure of speech. You have to be naive expecting stitched genuine leather dash from $30Kcar, while $60K Mercedes has molded plastic. In order to get genuine leather dash you have to get closer to $100K price level and above.
Psychogun didn’t see the GT live and he was actually smart enough to use implicitly subjective “it appears”: “it appears Mitsubishi added some stitched leather surfaces on the doors and the dash”. You however inspected the car in person and you explicitly said that Outlander has dash leather. Psychogun also did not blame anyone for his notion and he did not make any personal attacks.
Interesting contrast in magnitude of announcements:
Subaru: HIDs
Mitsu: i-Mev.
Well, on one model at least.
Bob
Subaru did not provide an engine appropriate to function with high performance turbocharger. They simply attached turbocharger to a stock "boxer" engine. Irresponsible and cheap approach
Link to the full post:
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f185114/950#MSG950
I don't even think the GT I sat in was a production model. I made that part very clear.
As I wrote:
"Seats were wrapped in plastic"
It's hard to compare the materials (dash vs. seats) when you can't even touch them.
It looked sort of like this, but even more protective plastic covering the seats and other interior bits:
http://www.liam27.com/audi/S3-pre-delivery-04.jpg
The dealer told me it was a press car, and that was why I could not test drive it. I'm not sure what was changed for production.
fushigi thought they just hadn't done the PDI yet, but this was unique in that all other 2010s were available to test drive, and this GT (their only one) was not.
Every car has plastic,well maybe not a Bentley or Rolls, but I'm sure there is some to be found within the car.
The difference and I'll use BMW as an example, I/you/we can order the 335 with leatherette, er plastic, without HIDs, without power seats etc. It's the difference in the way the car manufacturers allow the car orders to be places a la carte vs prix fix.
The fact the ordering philosphy is different has nothing to do with anything.
Enough so that Mitsubishi didn't even schedule a press conference:
http://www.naias.com/the-2010-show/press-preview/2010-press-conference-schedule.- aspx
Subaru showed a gull wing concept, besides the couple of new options packages for the Forester.
I was wrong about the fake leather, but can you blame me? Two people (psychogun and jwaters943) said it first and I believed them.
http://www.autonews.com/article/20100112/VIDEO/301129962/1219
Subaru's press conference was standing-room only. :shades:
I see that Subaru intends more options in Forester next year and Hyundai was talking about the next Santa Fe. I think the economy CUV niche is why they are both doing even better these days. (defectors from gas hogs, but people still need room)
I did it on my initial test drive just to see if it would work. And it was really easy to setup. We only listened for a minute, though, so I can't comment on sound quality other than it was fine during that test. I've spent most of my in-car hours ripping discs to the hard drive.
I don't think the voice integration goes nearly as far as Sync does. Which is fine, as some of the CDs I ripped are Japanese and the title info is in Kanji.
1100 miles on the Outlander as of last night, BTW.