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Mitsubishi Outlander vs. Subaru Forester

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Comments

  • comem47comem47 Posts: 395
    "FWIW, that's not the video I was referring to. My link was to the video from 1986"

    I know that . The same procedure was used on the 2005 remake and that's the one available to demonstrate that it wasn't just a straight up climb on a stock car. Look at the original around 40 sec and 45 sec and you will see the cable. (snow flying up in the middle on the head on shot). There also appears to be many 2"X4" at intervals across the jump (later just under the snow?...stop the 2005 "making of" video around 25 sec.) Notice also on the practice of the 2005 stunt that once it stopped about 1/2 way up it wasn't gonna go any further, regardless of the spikes.. Impressive as Audi's may be you can't overcome the fact that once momentum was lost they were hosed. It's just physics. It's a nice publicity stunt, but not real world. (just what were the spikes digging into through the thin snow cover?)

    The stunt I'd like to see based on physics is a Formula one car could stick to the road upside down at speed due to the ground effects (3000 lb downforce on a 1500 lbs car at 150 mph). Not likely that will ever be demonstrated though!! :D :
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Of course it was done Hollywood-style (the original was a commercial after all), but most of those things were added as safety precautions. The Quattro still climbed straight.

    The 2010 Mitsu brochure (full line, they didn't have Outlander brochures yet) says S-AWC "add left to right torque transfer", which is what any limited-slip (and Honda's ATTS) does.

    The video with that Outlander making forward progress with traction to only 2 wheels is nice, but let's see them put it on that roller ramp to see if it can climb with just 1 wheel. We've seen the Tribeca and Legacy do that. I've also seen 2 BMWs (X5 and 330xi) and a Benz do it.

    I just see a big opportunity for Mitsubishi to market S-AWC if they can demonstrate this at car shows, rally events, etc.
  • comem47comem47 Posts: 395
    "The video with that Outlander making forward progress with traction to only 2 wheels is nice, but let's see them put it on that roller ramp to see if it can climb with just 1 wheel. We've seen the Tribeca and Legacy do that. I've also seen 2 BMWs (X5 and 330xi) and a Benz do it.

    I just see a big opportunity for Mitsubishi to market S-AWC if they can demonstrate this at car shows, rally events, etc. "

    Whatever floats your boat. In 2007 I was looking for best rounded approach to 4WD/AWD with a decent interior size and good mpg with good towing capability. The existing Forester then was too small and cost more. If S-AWC was an option that cost a few thousand more I wouldn't have paid for it. I've yet to get stuck towing my snowmobile trailer up hills (not ski ramps mind you!) ;) and I don't go off-road and play in the mud. Suits me just fine for paying under $25K. Some people have a need to say they have the "best" but will truly never need it (but surely pay for it to impress their neighbors). As I pointed out earlier, if you truly go off road and wanna impress the big boys you're up against the likes of a Hummer for bragging rights. My neighbors may be leasing flashier wheels, but I own my house (all in what your priorities are).
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    You don't have to justify your purchase to me, or to anyone for that matter. Buy what you love, who cares what other people think?

    Rockville Mitsubishi was empty, though. You could hear crickets chirping. And they had 6 or 7 new 2010s. Right next door people are waiting in line to drive the ugliest car on the planet (priced some $10-12 grand or so more than you paid).

    Add some spice to the marketing. Host events to get the word out about S-AWC. Demos sell the sizzle, as they say, and get plenty of attention. It is quite literally put up on a pedestal.

    Under $25k is a good price, but Mitsu isn't going to make profits giving them away, especially the GT.

    What better way to convince people it's worth the extra $2 grand over the XLS than to show it in action?

    BMW did it with the 3 series sedan at the Ultimate Driving Event, so it's not just showing off road capability, it's showing AWD (front-rear) and traction management (side-to-side on both axles) capabilities.
  • fushigifushigi Posts: 1,245
    Thanks for the heads up. Actually, the rep at the local dealer (Chicago suburbs) called just a couple of hours ago. They've had some 4 cyl Outlanders in but just today got in a couple of GTs. One with Leather/Navi, one without. Once I set up an agreeable time with my wife I'll make an appointment for a test drive.

    From what I've read here and from the Mitsu Facebook postings the GT has been trickling into dealers slowly. I'd have to think you sat in a production model but possibly one that hasn't had the dealer prep completed.

    I agree about the roof rails from what I've seen in photos. SUVs in general just look better with them even if you don't plan on using them.

    Wheel covers are only on the base ES trim; all others have alloys.

    I don't mind chrome as long as its done tastefully; i.e. minimal as an accent and note shouting/in-your-face. Current Acura chrome treatment (grills) is not tasteful.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    possibly one that hasn't had the dealer prep completed

    At the very least, because the keyless entry wasn't even programmed. We had to use the key to get in.

    I meant alloys, they just had white plastic film covering them, I guess for protection. Sorry that wasn't more clear.

    We agree about the Acura grille, too. This thread is getting downright friendly! :D

    Good luck shopping.

  • >> Not so great on ice, plus the 3 Torsens were extremely expensive, so Audi kept just the center Torsen and now uses traction control.

    Not just traction control. Audi now buys pricey torque vectoring systems from ZF.

    >> What you describe sounds like what Honda used in the Prelude SH back in 1997, they called it ATTS, but it basically did the same thing (with FWD). What year did Mitsu start using it?

    1996

    Mitsu Evo 4, Galant, and Legnum VR-4 with torgue vectoring AWD system and with sophisticated electronics sensing was manufactured since 1996:
    “In 1996, Mitsubishi equipped the Lancer Evolution IV with the world's first Active Yaw Control (AYC) system. The AYC transfers drive torque between the left and right drive wheels as required. This was achieved by utilising a torque transfer rear differential which is controlled by various sensors and an electronic control unit (ECU) to enable a difference in torque to go to each of the rear wheels. The result is a dramatic improvement in cornering performance and improved safety. The eighth generation Galant/Legnum VR-4 model was released for the Japanese market in 1996 that also featured the AYC system, in addition integrated to now fully evolved active stability control (ASC) system... Active yaw control ... can actively split torque based on input from various accelerometers in the vehicle measuring longitudinal and lateral g forces, steering, brakes and throttle position” – Wikipedia

    1997
    That Prelude in 1997 was just a FWD vehicle with active front diff.

    2003
    EVO 8 released with new generation Super Active Yaw Control.

    2005
    05 Acura RL with SH-AWD was offered for sale: 2 rear wheel torque vectoring.
    2007 EVO X. 4-wheel torque vectoring . S-AWC uses torque vectoring technology to send different amount of torque to any wheel at any given time.

    2007
    EVO X. 4-wheel torque vectoring . S-AWC uses torque vectoring technology to send different amount of torque to any wheel at any given time.

    Ricardo 2 rear wheel torque vectoring system was installed on Audi for technology demonstration.

    2008
    ZF / GKN Driveline torque vectoring systems were installed on several MB, Audi and BMW X6.
  • >> Of course it was done Hollywood-style (the original was a commercial after all), but most of those things were added as safety precautions. The Quattro still climbed straight. i>

    You still think that commercial was real thing? That is impossible without special equipment like spikes and wires. "The spikes are raised" - German subtitles say in the video.

    This video on the other hand is a real thing, where Audio "climbed straight":
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTs0MCQHrzE
  • >> If S-AWC was an option that cost a few thousand more I wouldn't have paid for it. I've yet to get stuck towing my snowmobile trailer up hills and I don't go off-road and play in the mud... As I pointed out earlier, if you truly go off road and wanna impress the big boys you're up against the likes of a Hummer for bragging rights.

    Actually, I would get S-AWC not so much for off-roading, but for its exceptional handling capabilities and safety of high speed highway driving. It's no coincidence that both cars on the top of Edmunds slalom test are equipped with latest torque vectoring AWD systems: BMW X6 M, and Outlander GT.
  • >> Seriously though, let me get this right, you're comparing the Outlander to the MB GLK350 and actually arguing that the Outlander is better?!?!?!?!?

    "Seriously though, I let you get this right" why your $45K Mercedes has plastic dash instrument panel, while that $29K Outlander comes with double-stitched leather instrument panel "?!?!?!?!?" Isn't the Mercedes suppose to be a luxury car?
  • fushigifushigi Posts: 1,245
    Well, let's keep this thread between the Forester & Outlander. Or ask the moderators to expand the vehicles in the title.

    I know I've been guilty of mentioning others but will try to do better.

    We're shooting for a Wednesday test drive of the GT.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I don't see how using a premier German supplier is a bad thing.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I would get S-AWC not so much for off-roading, but for its exceptional handling capabilities

    Back down to earth ... let's remember lateral grip was a very modest 0.75g. The X6 M managed 0.91g. Not exactly in the same ballpark.

    S-AWC should have helped - send more power to the outside wheel to help it get around a constant radius. Why didn't it help? Forester did better without torque vectoring, and it didn't do very well, either.

    S-AWC seemed to help in quick, short bursts in a slalom, but not over a long, constant radius.

    Both the Outlander GT and the Forester XT should be shivering scared when they see an Aveo challenge them around a highway exit ramp, because it managed a whopping 0.77g. :D

    I'm just putting things in to perspective. An econobox can literally run circles around either of these. The cheapest car sold in America!

    Many compromises are made to get the ground clearance desired in this class, and neither Subaru nor Mitsubishi can cheat the laws of physics.
  • steverstever Viva Las CrucesPosts: 41,297
    Well, let's keep this thread between the Forester & Outlander. Or ask the moderators to expand the vehicles in the title.

    We have Crossover SUV Comparison for the "rest" of them.

    It wasn't long ago that the Outlander v Forester talk dominated that discussion, so we moved a lot of those posts over here.

    Moderator
    Minivan fan. Feel free to message or email me - stever@edmunds.com.

  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    They just tested the 2010 GT.

    Like Edmunds, the Forester did better in braking, lateral grip, and acceleration, but the XT even wins the Figure-8 handling loop as well. It's a total sweep:

    Category, Forester XT, Outlander GT with Super-All Wheel Control:

    0-60mph 6.6s 7.4s
    1/4 mile 15.1s 15.8s
    trap speed 89.0mph 88.7mph
    figure 8 28.1s 28.4s
    avg lateral gs in figure 8 .60g .58g
    60-0 127ft 136ft
    lateral grip 0.78g 0.76g

    Forester wins 7 out of 7, including all 4 handling categories.

    Don't shoot the messenger, send feedback to:

    Motor Trend
    P.O. Box 420235
    Palm Coast, FL 32142-0235
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Mitsu was down 43%. For the year they're down 46%.

    Subaru was up 24% for the month, up 14% for the year. The Forester model alone outsold all of Mitsubishi both in November and year-to-date.

    The timing for the arrival of the GT could not be better, though. They need a hit.

    I also think they need some better marketing. I still think the ramp demonstration idea could turn things around for them.
  • p0926p0926 Posts: 4,423
    Forester wins 7 out of 7, including all 4 handling categories.

    Yeah but it doesn't have a leather dash :P
  • p0926p0926 Posts: 4,423
    Mitsu was down 43%. For the year they're down 46%.

    I wonder what impact that will have since they were already on thin ice for being able to remain in the US market.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Land Rover/Jaguar (combined) outsold them. These US sales levels are not sustainable.

    My guess is they just don't want to put $3000 cash back on the hood to move the metal, so noone's buying. One ad I saw had a $1500 incentive, but that doesn't seem to be inticing enough. Consumers know prices were a lot lower last year, and they'll wait.

    I actually agree with the strategy to move away from big incentives, but start with the new 2010 model, and clear out the leftovers. Rockville Mitsubishi still has 2007 Outlander brochures in the showroom.

    They keep running out of 2010 Forester brochures. Bob says the model on the cover looks exactly like my wife and I want one BADLY but I can't find it! :D
  • Considering that the Outlander GT weighs some 430lbs (!!!!) more than the Forester XT Premium, it's really not surprising that the Forester is faster and displays greater grip limits.
    Given that huge weight advantage, I would have expected the XT's performance margins to be bigger though.
  • >> I don't see how using a premier German supplier is a bad thing.

    “premier”… I’ve never said it’s “a bad thing”. I could just say that Audi own “legendary” Quattro suddenly becomes so outdated that they have to buy third a party AWD . Audi lost it's leadership in AWD technology and have to use the same stock AWD as other "premier" car manufacturers.
  • >>>> I would get S-AWC not so much for off-roading, but for its exceptional handling capabilities.
    >> Back down to earth ... let's remember lateral grip was a very modest 0.75g. The X6 M managed 0.91g. Not exactly in the same ballpark.

    Skid pad ? There is not so much steering going on and it’s not as much handling test as slalom. Skid pad measures lateral acceleration: road grip and G forces. Besides Car and Driver test registered 0.81G for Outlander better then Forester and closer to that 0.91G number. But the $95K X6M also has twice more expensive sports tires.

    >> neither Subaru nor Mitsubishi can cheat the laws of physics.

    But Audi could. If they use snow spikes and “premier” German steel wire : --)
  • >> Don't shoot the messenger, send feedback to…

    Forester XT is definitely much quicker on tests involving acceleration, but what else you would expect, Forester is lighter and it has Mitsubishi turbocharger! This Mitsubishi EVO style turbocharger is one of the best, even BMW buys it.

    Otherwise these tests are too close. “Trap speed” 89.0mph vs. 88.7mph ? Common, big deal! Like I’ve said the other test shows better Outlander lateral grip of 0.81g vs. Forester’s - "it managed a whopping 0.78g".
  • >> Yeah but it doesn't have a leather dash

    Oh, you did not know... Forester is not suppose to have leather dash. It has plastic dash appropriate to the price. Your GLK plastic dash however is disrespect to Mercedes customers. For $45 grand they deserve more.

    GLK was just released but it has already outdated Bluetooth, which is not capable of audio streaming. Shame, even one of new Subaru cars has it.
  • >> Subaru was up 24% for the month, up 14% for the year...

    We’ve discussed this already a few times. Globally Mitsubishi still sells twice more cars then Subaru. Subaru global sales this year dropped by about 50,000 cars (10%) and company lost this year 3/4 billion dollars. Next year sales projected to drop again 3rd year in a row. At these rates of decline Subaru will not be able to invest in new AWD systems, hybrid/electric technologies, electronics and transmissions, so you’d have to drive your 3-speed Foresters for the next decade. Customers would not care anyway since a "symmetrical AWD" and "boxer" sounds so cool.


    >> I also think they need some better marketing. I still think the ramp demonstration idea could turn things around for them.

    That’s for sure Mitsu marketing sucks. Subaru marketing is the best in North America.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I agree that weight is the culprit, but the GT was supposed to be lighter - no roof rails, aluminum roof panel, etc.

    This is a GT, so perhaps they should have done more - delete the 3rd row, bigger brakes, lowered suspension?

    EPA says it has up to 139.4 cubic feet of space, but the Forester has 141.1.

    Both lose space for the moonroof and that subwoofer takes up another 2.8 cubic feet as well.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    If the slalom incorporates more performance areas than the skidpad, then the Figure 8 incorporate more than the slalom - like braking and acceleration.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    “Trap speed” 89.0mph vs. 88.7mph ?

    Keep in mind the Forester reached that higher speed in less time - 15.1 seconds rather than 15.8 seconds.

    Subaru thanks Mitsu for the TD04 turbo but we still hope the Sports XT gets the same major upgrades that the WRX recently got from IHI, notably this:

    image

    That's a VF52, not supplied by Mitsu.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    global sales this year dropped by about 50,000 cars (10%) and company lost this year 3/4 billion dollars

    How could you know that if the year hasn't ended?

    Earlier you criticized me for using projections, and those projections were revised anyway. Outback sales were up 142% last month. The only limitation right now is capacity.

    3 speed? :confuse:
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,697
    The only limitation right now is capacity.

    Very true. The Subaru factories are working overtime, and still can't keep up with the demand. Heard that directly from someone at Subaru.

    It's rumored the next Subaru factory to be built will be in China, as Subaru feels that's the next great market to exploit.

    Bob
This discussion has been closed.