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Are The Japanese Poised to Dethrone the 911 AND the Z06?

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Comments

  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    Do you know of any reliable road course comparisons done with the GT-R other than the one by R&T?

    The American car companies have a storied 40-50 year history of using outright ringers and loaning them to car magazines (who were sometimes willing accomplices). The Germans have historically been conservative. The old guard Japanese (Honda and Toyota) have historically been accurate or slightly conservative. Some of the others (Nissan, Mazda, Mitusbishi) have been known to be optimistic with test data and hp numbers.
  • bigmclargehugebigmclargehuge Member Posts: 377
    Yes,

    evo.co.uk

    and

    Autocar

    Both against the GT3 though.

    Yes, there was a point where I had essentially lost all hope for American automotive journalism and the obvious pro-big 3 bias they had. I guarantee in some of those tests, the winning car had the fattest envelope waiting in the glove compartment when the reviewer got in, if you catch my drift. But from what I can see these days, its either getting better or they're hiding it better. ;)

    As far as Nissan goes though, they were always highly conservative with the GT-R's power ratings. They certainly didn't inflate those numbers for the purpose of selling more cars. They underrated the R34 by about 50hp.
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    A little off topic, but sometimes I still wonder about the car magazines. There was much rejoicing over the new Malibu - the new Camry/Accord killer (or at least their equal). I rode in a new Malibu and it looked and felt like a late '90s Buick. Nice for old people, I suppose.

    Was the prior GT-R underrating part of the whole 280 hp limit deal?
  • bigmclargehugebigmclargehuge Member Posts: 377
    Yeah, I guess you're right about the mags. Maybe not much has changed.

    Yes, the 'gentlemen's agreement' was that no Japanese manufacturer would go over 280hp or so. Since this left them at a severe disadvantage to German manufacturers, the only people who benefitted from such an agreement were the ones who broke it.

    Nissan was getting closer to 280hp at the wheels in the R34. Thats why many people don't really trust the 473hp at the crank rating they are giving the R35.

    I suppose you could argue motive there for Nissan. But they also undercut it's acceleration. Edmunds beat the 0-60 and 1/4-mile that Nissan posted. I think their conservatism with this car has more semblance to the marketing strategy of the car they benchmarked against, the 911.

    Switching gears a little bit, I don't judge a car on the brand because of the Z06 example. GM makes BS products if you ask me, but the Corvette plant in Kentucky has a phenominal attention to detail in comparison to the rest of the company (except for Holden). If they paid as much attention (years ago) to what customers want in all of their vehicles as they do for the Z06, that company would never have reported a loss. Thats my take anyway.

    Similar to Nissan, they can pay a lot more attention to the GT-R assembly line, and market it totally differently from their other cars.
  • ace47ace47 Member Posts: 6
    The critics who drove the GT-R probably drove the ZO6 and other crap that you people regard as supercars so of course the GT-R would have felt almost unrealistic. The critics complain that the other cars don't have good handling but when they get a car with the handling of a GT-R they say it is no fun. You people do realize that you can switch of the VDC anytime you want?
  • revmattrevmatt Member Posts: 14
    I own a 2009 GT-R and a 2007 Z06. The Z06 was $3,000.00 more than the GT-R "out-the-door." Other than a Diablosport Predator tune, the Z06 is completely stock. The GT-R CANNOT keep up with the Z06 on road courses or 1/4 mile drags. My best 0-60: in the Z06= 3.8; in the GT-R= 4.1. Road course times: GT-R is consistently 2-3% slower in overall times. 1/4 mile is no contest! Z06 best is 11.8 sec. for me. GT-R is 12.4!! R&T, etc. are on drugs or being paid to help sell the GT-R! :mad:
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    Well, your acceleration times are close to the mags.
    Your lap times don't correspond to anything I've seen.

    How does a minister afford such cars?
  • bigmclargehugebigmclargehuge Member Posts: 377
    On top of Lemmer's question, I would also wonder

    How much exactly did you pay for the GT-R? And when did you take delivery? How many miles are on it now?

    Answer those questions and I might be able to tell you what the problem is. ;)
  • revmattrevmatt Member Posts: 14
    ...out the door- $81,000.00 for the GT-R, $84,000.00 for the fully loaded Vette... after government rape fees, etc. Delivery mid-late June 08. Approx. 2,500 miles on the GT-R. A couple of trips to Vegas from Northern CA provided a great chance to break her in fairly well! :D
    There are now videos on utube showing similar results. Z06s whoppin' the new GT-R.
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    I previously gave people a hard time about using YouTube as "proof" that a GT-R was faster than a Z06 on a track, but more reliable evidence has piled up in favor of the GT-R. I still think it seems a little overhyped, and maybe not my cup of tea, but it is clearly brutally fast around a track.
  • bigmclargehugebigmclargehuge Member Posts: 377
    Which YouTube videos were you referring to?
  • revmattrevmatt Member Posts: 14
    AddedNew GTR R35 VS Corvette C6 Z06 Race in Oman. Uncut Version
    06:26 From: Oman911Turbo
    Views: 7,089

    :cry:
  • bigmclargehugebigmclargehuge Member Posts: 377
    Everyone knows the Z06 has a higher trap speed. That video proves nothing new. And I don't think anyone who owned a GT-R would be so elated from those results.

    No US-spec GT-Rs were released on the West Coast prior to July 11th, except the promotional #1.

    If you do own a GT-R (which I doubt) the likely reason you can't track it as fast as a Z06 is your skill driving an AWD car.
  • revmattrevmatt Member Posts: 14
    I am soooo tired of auto-mags hyping everything BUT US autos. The latest MT and R & T are perfect examples. Where are the 60 ft times, 0-60 times, 1/4 mile times? The GT-R is a very sporty family car. Getting an early one is due to my Dads old connections via the IADAC. (Independent Auto-Dealers Assoc) He was their executive director and lobbyist for a spell.
    My wife wants me to drive a car with a back seat. I prefer the V-8 rwd exceptionally sporty appearance and performance/feel of the Z06. There's no accounting for taste... she drives a 2005 Jag S type R.
    :confuse:
  • bigmclargehugebigmclargehuge Member Posts: 377
    You're still not describing the GT-R accurately. Its not 'sporty' by any means, and certainly doesn't fit the description of 'family car.' Its a touring car. And a bang/buck borderline supercar.

    Its not hype, its called data:

    http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/download/0508_ct_GTRZ06911_chart.pdf

    Same old stuff we already knew. If you want straight-line bragging rights, the Z06 always was the way to go.

    And if any car has taken a lot of crap from the existence of the GT-R, its Porsche, not Chevy. The 997T came in last here, mind you. Its not an anti-American review.

    If you expected the stock GT-R to be a 1/4-mile monster, you would have bought the wrong car. Hang out at NAGTROC, and I'm sure no knowledgeable person would have advised you to do that.

    Why would you have bought a car you didn't prefer anyway just because your wife told you to? Keep the Mustang for cry-it-out-loud. Or get the Camaro when it comes out if that's your cup of tea.

    But when you say 'the GT-R CANNOT keep up', thats probably more driver style than the car's ability. You can't drive it like a RWD car. It took me a long time switching between drivetrain types to get the confidence to toss and power through corners. Its really not the same style at all.

    Its not feasible that with every magazine putting the GT-R around almost any track with corners faster than a Z06 is all hype. The Stig wasn't paid 2 years in advance to sandbag the Z06, because one day the GT-R might be sent to Top Gear. The Z06 is a 3-year old model. It was hot stuff when it came out, but it was bound to get beat at some point.
  • tedebeartedebear Member Posts: 832
    It's interesting that no one mentions the Viper ACR, although it finished ahead of both the GT-R and Z06, according to Road & Track. Perhaps that's the reason.

    Here's the article: 4-Track-Free-for-All

    Here's a quote from the article: "The results are clear. You want to go to the track? Buy a Viper ACR and destroy the competition for roughly $100,000. Want to amaze your friends by defying physics? Get a Nissan GT-R."
  • bigmclargehugebigmclargehuge Member Posts: 377
    From C&D:

    the shocks have 13 compression settings and 18 rebound settings. Jeff Reece, an attending Chrysler engineer, suggested relaxing them back a notch or two for our undulating venue while jacking the ride height a quarter-inch to keep the body off the bump stops. As the Viper became more pliable, our courage returned and lap times fell. Car setup is in the ACR’s lesson plan, too.

    Because every test the ACR wins, Chrysler sends an engineer to setup the suspension mid-test for optimum lap times. Its not like you get an engineer in the trunk at puchase. If the ACR was going to be the fastest with a single setup, they probably wouldn't have sent the engineer.

    The drivers said that if the GT2 came with a Porsche engineer, the GT2 would have done much better as well. So putting things in perspective, that's why the ACR doesn't always get the credit.

    Even for having a stock setup, the GT-R nearly keeps up with the 'tuned' ACR in the long-track test (Willow Springs) below.

    http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/download/0908_cvr_willowsprings.pdf

    http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/download/0908_cvr_streetsofwillow.pdf

    http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/download/0908_cvr_autocross.pdf

    http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/download/0908_cvr_oval.pdf

    That's why its so impressive. On the high-speed courses its among the fastest stock setups out there. And keeps up on all the other courses as well.

    It doesn't win everything, it has a niche.
  • revmattrevmatt Member Posts: 14
    Add $20,000.00 worth of upgrades to the Z06 and GT-R and the Viper would not even be in the same race!

    True, I am unaccustomed to awd. My previous SVTs and wifes Jag do not handle AT ALL like the GT-R!
    It just feels odd! I do not get a real feel... "road talking to me" like my current other vehicles... or previous ones... :confuse:
    I still have a hard time BUYING the MT and R&T articles!
    :surprise:
  • tedebeartedebear Member Posts: 832
    Add $20,000.00 worth of upgrades to the Z06 and GT-R and the Viper would not even be in the same race!

    The same could be said of the ACR Viper if you add $20k worth of upgrades to it. The test was run with the original equipment from the factory.
  • bigmclargehugebigmclargehuge Member Posts: 377
    Here I'm going to have to agree with Revmatt,

    The ACR already is a stripped out track horse. Do the same treatment to the Z06 (read: ultra-wide Michelin Pilot Sport Cups, aero tune + adjustable suspension + strip anything unnecessary from interior) and you'd have a factory C6R for 100K, which should give the ACR a significant run for its money.

    Just because Dodge road-legalizes a club racer doesn't mean it maintains all the functionality of a touring car. The fact that the GT-R comes very close indeed to a tuned ACR says a lot.
  • bigmclargehugebigmclargehuge Member Posts: 377
    Whereas I'm getting to be almost too confident when it comes to tossing an AWD car around corners and giving it the power. The traditional feedback from the steering wheel won't really exist in the same way.

    Thats actually why the gamers have an easier time with driving rally-style cars. Their mind is trained to take queues only from the eyes, never the hands.

    But I think its pretty unfathomable that:

    MT
    Edmunds
    EVO magazine
    R & T
    Autocar
    Top Gear

    And a handful of others are all sandbagging other cars. Nissan has got to be doing something right.
  • revmattrevmatt Member Posts: 14
    $20,000.00 would bring the GT-R and Z06 closer to the cost of the Viper! :D
  • bigmclargehugebigmclargehuge Member Posts: 377
    I watched this on Friday, but couldn't find it all weekend until I got back to work today and checked my history tab.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsP-4Cjm3mk

    I'm not positive how good this guy's times actually are on this particular track, but it certainly does look like he's carrying tremendous speed through the corners.

    Audi R8 sounds better though, IMO. I really wish that car has more power :(

    The rest of the video is funny yet stupid.
  • bigmclargehugebigmclargehuge Member Posts: 377
    Drivers Republic set out to prove a GT-R on Bridgestones is slower than a GT2... ok... we knew that already but they seem to feel like they've stuck automotive journalistic gold.

    Result:

    GT-R claim on Bridestones (dry): 7:38
    GT2 claim (dry): 7:32

    6 seconds faster

    GT-R in the cold and wet on Bridgestones: 7:55
    GT2 in the cold and wet: 7:49

    6 seconds faster

    Wow. Shocker.

    This proves nothing about the GT-R on Dunlops, or how fast they are in the dry.

    But this is exactly what Nissan claimed the results would be on those tires.

    With both cars 17 seconds behind their claim, its only natural that if one would be faster than this, so would the other.

    The only thing Sport Auto and Drivers Republic have managed to prove so far is that cars are not hovercraft. They slow down over water.
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