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Toyota Prius vs VW Golf TDI

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Comments

  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    So this is the conclusion so far:

    Moparbad uses a not so well known publication in order to prove that a group of not so well known auto reviewers dont like taking a spin on a Prius

    Reality: The Prius has the highest ownership satisfaction rate among all autos (Consumers Report). If you want to find out how satisfying a Prius is why not ask the owners instead?

    Gagrice likes his Sequoia and old Lexus and strongly urges all Prius owners to buy a Yaris instead.

    Reality: What the hell has this got to do with this discussion.

    Marlyece thinks that all members should be left alone to enjoy the Golf.

    Reality: Before you issue a restraining order did you ever bother looking at the title of this forum?

    Thammer62 presents to everyone the positives and negatives about both VW TDI and the Prius

    Reality: How on earth are we suppose to have a debate when you are so agreeable? ;)

    Bottom line: THe VW TDI does not even come close to being as fuel efficient as a Prius. The VW TDI is highly uncomfortable for a fifth rear passenger when compared to a Prius. It lacks the great technology that a Prius has. It's not much better than the prior generation VW TDI. It's a complex new diesel and with VW's track record in terms of reliabilty that can be very bad news. The VW TDI is pathetic in terms of fuel mileage in slow city traffic. The Prius is a great fuel miser on both the highway and slow city traffic. The Golf has a long history of reliability issues. The VW TDI uses diesel which can fluctuate far more than gasoline and as a result a higher degree of unpredicable fuel costs. It's harder to find diesel than gasoline which can be a big inconvenience.

    Oh yes and did I forget to mention that the Prius has the highest ownership satisfaction among all cars. I thought I did. :blush: I

    OK now I can leave all you VW Golf fans alone.

    No need for that restraining order.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Oh yes and did I forget to mention that the Prius has the highest ownership satisfaction among all cars.

    If you look to your right you will see the 2010 Prius and the current customer rating. It has gone down. Prius topped out in customer satisfaction with the 2006 MY. While the only current VW in the same class the Jetta TDI has gone above the Prius in customer satisfaction. I would imagine the same will hold true for the Golf TDI when it arrives. So far this is a debate about a vehicle very few have gotten to drive. It will be good when we have input from actual drivers like ourselves. Will the fleet average MPG be as high with the Golf TDI as the Prius. I doubt it. Most people buying the Golf actually like to drive. They enjoy the torque and pull the diesel offers on mountain roads. Something a Prius driver will never experience. I would say that makes ignorance bliss. They can enjoy their spreadsheets showing 54.1 MPG.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Nothing to argue about in your post IMO. The Gen 3 Prius may address the handling issue but that's still to be determined.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Bear in mind many drivers in the U.S. have no mountain roads to drive on, just a lot of flat prairie and cityscapes. So even though these drivers may "like to drive", the terrain they drive on doesn't offer much challenge that the Prius can't handle.

    Re torque, don't forget that the combined torque of the Prius' powertrain is pretty hefty--258 lb-ft. The Golf TDI may have more usable torque in the mountain passes, but if you don't have mountain passes, it's not a big advantage.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    I can't believe that you'd actually use the satisfaction ratings here on Edmunds as proof of anything.

    Do you want to see how I can give the VW Golf an overall rating of 9.8 out of 10 based on 1,000 reviews instead of 8.7 o/o 10 based on 16 reviews?? Give me a couple of days and the VW will have 984 more reviews....all 10's.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Sounds very dubious to me. The Prius has been consistently number one for 5 years in a row.

    How about some facts like the one based on 425,000 responses from the world's biggest automotive survey :

    Consumers Report 2009 Survey
    For the fifth year in a row, the gas/electric Toyota Prius hybrid is the top car for owner satisfaction. That's the news from our latest Annual Car Owner Satisfaction Survey, conducted by the Consumer Reports National Research Center. Ninety-three percent of Prius owners who responded said they would definitely buy or lease one again. The Prius was closely followed by the Chevrolet Corvette Z06 (92 percent) and the new Mini Cooper Clubman (91 percent).

    A 54.1 MPG on a spreadsheet and an overwhelming love for the Prius as expressed consistently for 5 years in the world's biggest auto survey may not amount to much for you. But then again I wont confuse you with facts.

    link title.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Hopefully the software will not allow that to happen. However I think it is better than the crap we get from a select few zealots that subscribe to CR. So are you saying the supposed Prius owners lied back in 2005 when the rating was at 9.4? I think these two posts say it best about the 2010 Prius.

    Well what can you say. The seats are not comfortable, the ride is numb and disconnected from the road, wind/road noise is at a premium, very jittery over any type of non-smooth pavement. However, going green is the way to go. We need more of these types of cars only with better execution...

    I've owned this 2010 Prius IV for 1500 miles. I've been getting 55-60mpg mixed city and highway. That's about the nicest thing you can say about this car. For the $29k I paid, I expected a LOT more. A mazda3 or a civic and a big gas bill would have been a much better value. The brakes are ridiculous. If you go over a pothole, you're going to lose all braking power for about 3 seconds. For a car with traction control and electronic brake distribution this is simply unacceptable. In power mode the car drives well and has some spunk. Normal and Eco modes are just nanny modes that deaden the accelerator. Thanks, but I know how to drive and like to accelerate without having to floor it.

    Both gave the Prius high marks for Mileage. With the lowest marks for fun to drive. That is the difference between the two cars being debated. Prius has lots of gizmos for the geek with great mileage. The Golf TDI has driver comfort, performance, mileage and handling for the person that really enjoys driving. Should make the choice easy if people really know what they like.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Oh c'mon you cant be serious :confuse:

    Opinions of two people conveys the truth about a Prius.

    Kydsyder, John and myself as a population alone outweighs the opinion of these two disgruntled people.

    There are hundreds of thousands of Prius owners and yes oh yes you will be able to find a few disgruntled owners among them if you search hard enough. Unfortunately the majority of them are the most satisfied auto owners for the last five years. PERIOD!!!

    Golf comfort? Not on the rear seat. Unless you ofcourse you find subcompact comfortable.
    Golf TDI perormance and handling? Oh Puhleeeze. This econobox is a far cry from any performance vehicle.
    Golf Mileage? Subpar when compared to the Prius

    The one advantage about the Golf is that any celebrity would be embarassed to be seen in one. I find the celebrity cachet of the Prius as somewhat annoying since I am a low profile person myself.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    So you are telling me when you get a survey from less than on tenth of one percent of car owners in the USA it is somehow valid? And when you add the fact that people that read that rag are biased with preconceived notions about what is good and what is not good. I subscribed and got screwed following their advice in the 1960s. I won't allow them to sway me ever again. You will never convince me that the big DONATIONS from companies like Toyota do not play into their advice.

    So just how many Prius owners responded. And how many unhappy Prius owners canceled their subscription to CR for being led astray?

    Let's look at the CR report from a scientific angle. For the sake of argument let's say you have 10,000 Camry owners and only 89% would buy another Camry. You have 500 Prius owners with 93% saying they would buy again. Does that make the Prius more popular by some stretch of the imagination? I like my Sequoia in some ways. I would not buy another one because of the PP service from the dealer. Just too many variables to give that 93% any kind of credibility.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Apparently the only thing that will convince you is a car that does not use California gasoline and has tons and tons of ooomph to climb moutains.

    Two highly irrelevant issues here in flat Ontario Canada but highly releveant in the spot where Priuses tend to be most popular: Califronia :P

    Go figure?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I would guess most CA Prius rarely leave the level cities in the Los Angeles basin and the Bay area. They do fine on smooth freeways in stop and go driving. You hit the nail on the head. I will not buy another gas powered car. Maybe electric if we get a break on our high priced electricity or put in Solar. More than likely just keep what I got and grumble about the crappy gas. In reality CA has neutered the diesels to try and keep them out. They were successful keeping the Honda diesel out of the market here. Now Honda has nothing to compete with Toyota and Ford. The Honda hybrids are not that great and trouble prone. With only a handful of us diehards that like VW diesels it could be we are headed into the dark ages. Maybe every Prius will come with a robot to drive people around. They would look natural in a Prius.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Well anyways Gagrice I myself may end up buying a VW Golf TDI in the future. I own a 83 MB300D and I lived with diesels for almost three decades. But I also love my Prius and I dont think that is a contradiction.

    I just like playing Devil's Advocate and I hope I wasn't too snarky with my last posts. The VW Golf just won the World Car of the Year Award and that in itself says a lot.

    The robot driving the Prius almost exists today with self-park, lane change warning system and those sensors/radar to prevent accidents. Soon there will be no need for a robot.
  • garv214garv214 Member Posts: 162
    Hmmm...I didn't realize that SF was so flat LOL. For what it is worth, my twin brother loves the Prius (doesn't own one, but will some day) because of its great gas mileage and room for adults in the rear seat. I, on the other hand, would likely favor the Golf diesel (test drove a BMW 335d) because of the combination of fuel economy, torque, and that diesels are offered in some cars that are entertaining to drive. Neither of us is "wrong" our choices are driven (pardon the pun) by what we expect/value in our car and the driving experience. :D
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Dewey I would not see a contradiction if you owned a Prius and a Hummer. Each has its own strong values. If there are two drivers in a family that both put on a lot of miles why not have a Prius and a Golf TDI. One of my best friends just moved to Maui and took his 2009 Prius with him. It is a great car for that Island. 55 MPH strongly enforced and mostly level driving. Add to that the high price of gas and the Prius is a winner. The Golf TDI would also be wonderful on Maui as they have a great supply of B100 biodiesel. There is a group of celebs that drive diesel cars and PU trucks on the best alternative fuel available.

    Hmmm...I didn't realize that SF was so flat LOL

    OK, I forgot about downtown SF. I wonder if a Prius would be able to make it up some of those very steep streets when it rains. I know many have complained about the traction control leaving them stuck in snow and slick surfaces. The VW Passat TDI that I owned had a switch to give full driving control to the driver. A Big Plus.
  • rminorrminor Member Posts: 40
    I'll just give my two cents worth. Never owned a Prius or Golf but I did own an '05 Jetta TDI. I loved driving it and it seemed to be high quality. We drove it twice from home (FL) to CA. Broke down both times. First time was close to home and we made it home in a black cloud of smoke. Stuck EGR. Took 4 days to get the part. Second time it broke down in rural AZ on I-10 on Saturday of a holiday weekend. Burst coolant connection. We spent 3 days in a motel waiting for the dealer to open and repair it. When we finally arrived home we traded it. Enough
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Interesting alternate viewpoint on the Motorweek / Car.com three day sojorun...

    "We found the Prius, in the end, offered a really top-notch interior, a peppy ride and great mileage," said Patrick Olsen, editor-in-chief of Cars.com. "There were several close competitors, but the Prius's new look and frugal ways won us over."

    The full report airs on MotorWeek episode 2902. Here are the results of the MotorWeek and Cars.com Power & Economy Drive by the numbers:

    Car Type .......................... Drive mpg .... EPA mpg
    --- ---- ....................................--------- -------
    1. 2010 Toyota Prius hybrid .......................... 49.2 ... 50.0
    2. 2010 Honda Insight hybrid........................ 40.5 ... 41.0
    3. 2010 Audi A3 TDI diesel............................38.2 ... 34.0
    4. 2009 Volkswagen Jetta TDI diesel............36.2 ... 34.0
    5. 2009 Smart ForTwo gasoline powered.....35.3 ... 36.0
    6. 2010 Ford Fusion Hybrid hybrid ............. 32.9 ... 39.0

    Here's the link...MotorWeek TV and Cars.com Feature Fuel Economy Face-Off

    Same trip, same company, somewhat different perspective...
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    No it's just about statistics.. No valid conclusion can be drawn from self-submitted evaluations. Very little can be estimated by anything less than about 1100 entries. In statistics these 1000-1100 entries have to be chosen at random so as not to skew the results. Self-submitted results are immediately suspect.

    Then there's the small number of samples.

    My own way to use these reviews would be to throw out the top ten % and the bottom ten % then average the remaining 80%. Top 20% and Bottom 20%?
  • gogogodzillagogogodzilla Member Posts: 707
    ?!?

    However the revenue goes to the shareholders. That's as American as I need it to be.

    So, if I... an American... own VW stock, then VW is American? And if a Japanese citizen owns Ford stock, Ford is now Japanese?

    :confuse:
  • gogogodzillagogogodzilla Member Posts: 707
    Like I said before, the TDI sells in small numbers because Americans don't and will not buy diesels.

    Actually, it's because VW intentionally limits the number of TDI sales in the US as so to have enough to meet their European sales targets. Currently, their diesel engine factory does not have the capacity to meet all their projected sales.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    No, not at all. All large corporations like these, along with GM, Toyota, GE, IBM, MSFT, Intel, etc, etc, etc are all international companies. Their profits belong to the shareholders. No country owns these corporations. The shareholders own them.

    So yes if more Japanese citizens and banks and funds own MSFT stock than American citizens and banks and funds than MSFT is a 'Japanese-owned' company. That seems pretty obvious.
  • gogogodzillagogogodzilla Member Posts: 707
    Camry vs Accord?!?

    What's the difference? A Camcord is a Camcord is a Camcord.

    Now compare a Passat vs Mazda6 vs Camcord... that'd be interesting.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I know where VW could pick up some extra factory capacity for diesel engines, right here in the U.S., and real cheap! ;)

    If there were enough demand here, VW would add the capacity for it. Maybe they could build Golf TDIs (using that new U.S. diesel factory) alongside the new mid-sized sedan being built in the States.
  • gogogodzillagogogodzilla Member Posts: 707
    I couldn't agree with you more. If all the VW crowd has to crow about are good seats then the laugh is sure on them.

    Actually, they were just replying to your original assertation that VW seats were cr@p in the '90s.

    BTW: Have you considered the amount of smug your emitting into the atmosphere from your Pious?

    :P
  • gogogodzillagogogodzilla Member Posts: 707
    NY has this new idling law that they enacted (other states must have something similar too). You can get a very steep fine if you idle more than 3 minutes time.

    Sweet! I can't wait to see all the lawsuits that will be filed against the state of NY for setting red light times above the 3 minute mark - mandating it's citizenry to violate the state's own laws.

    :P
  • gogogodzillagogogodzilla Member Posts: 707
    I heard that the Toyonda Pious can fly faster than light and travel in space! It also has 'ray-guns' to shoot all the evil zombie squirrels that are brainwashing people into drinking the diesel-ade.

    That, and it comes with a little robot R2 unit as a rechargeable dog-bot.

    :P
  • gogogodzillagogogodzilla Member Posts: 707
    Think of all the pollution that was emitted into our environment to make your THREE cars!

    Imagine how much cooler the planet would be if you had just kept your 1st generation Prius!

    Think of the *CHILDREN*!!! (and the clams, too!)

    :surprise:
  • gogogodzillagogogodzilla Member Posts: 707
    Actually, VW is building an auto plant in the states (I think it'll be in Tennessee).

    But it's not going to be building diesel engines, though.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    You are so out of date! It was ray guns on Gen 1, phasers (dual settings, kill for diesels, stun for everyone else) for Gen 2, and quantum torpedoes (will take out an entire VW factory) on the 2010.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Yes, I mentioned that factory in my post. Guess how many closed automotive factories are out there, available for a song, for more VW diesel engines? Lots.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Sadly most of the empty plants are in UAW territory. You know the workers that bankrupted the Auto Industry in America? Any plant in a town controlled by the UAW will be considered a toxic asset. GM and C will have a hard time unloading them. It would probably cost more to rebuild into a state of the art factory than finding bare land and starting from the beginning. I think Mexico will get the diesel expansion not the USA. They are also big buyers of VW vehicles.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Both TDI exceeded EPA mpg, while all the hybrids in the test delivered less than EPA mpg. Interesting.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Pretty childish don't ya think?
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Yep noticed that. The top two hybrids along with the Smart were certainly within the margin of measurable error. This is the third evaluation of the FFH where the FE rating in actual usage was WAY off the EPA number.

    Wassup Ford?
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > Interesting.

    How do you figure? EPA estimates are just standardized measures.

    The road test revealed 49.2 and 36.2 values, which point out a rather huge difference.
    .
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    How do you figure? EPA estimates are just standardized measures.

    How do I figure what john?

    Observation is that EPA mpg underestimates mpg for diesels and over estimates mpg for hybrids.

    Does not matter in the least concerning the Prius as it would not interest me if it was rated at 70 mpg. Mileage can not fix the many faults of the Prius.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I personally feel the new EPA tests were optimized specifically for the hybrids. The EPA got so much flack over the 60 MPG rating the Prius was given under the old test. Sadly they handed out the tax credits to Prius owners based on the old highly flawed tests. And now the tests are totally off for diesels by the EPA's own admission, and the tax credits are based on the way low mileage. More evidence that the powers in the agency are controlled by the oil companies. If we all started driving diesel cars there would be a gas glut as there is in the UK currently. What to do with all the worthless gas?
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Top Five Green Cars

    No Prius.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    For our money and driving pleasure, we choose the 2009 Volkswagen Jetta TDI over the 2009 Toyota Prius Touring. Of course, all that could change in a month or so once we get our hands on a 2010 Toyota Prius which is said to be more powerful, more efficient and up-to-date in terms of infotainment.

    No, the epic battle between diesel and hybrid is not over. Not by a long shot. But sometimes it seems as if we're throwing feathers at throttle pedals.     TDI vs Prius

    I'd like to see Edmunds compare the 2010 Golf TDI to the 2010 Prius. Will be nice to see the Prius get spanked again.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    What was the criteria to be eligible for that list?

    The Saturn was not sold to anyone. That Two-Mode was canceled, never making it to market.

    The diesel wasn't green on two counts. MPG was nothing to write home about (30/41) and the emission rating was bottom of the scale (Tier 2, Bin 5).

    Of course, if you note the date of publish, much is revealed. There is something interesting after all.
    .
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Please .... be serious. The EPA tests were designed back in the late 70's. They've done nothing to them since then except apply three 'discounts' to the raw data so as to bring them more in line with real world situations.

    The 2nd 'discount' occurred in the early 90's the last 'discount' occurred in Sept 2007.

    Facts are your friend. The rest of your rant is victim-speak for 'Woe is me and the dark cloud that always follows me.'
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    The 2010 Prius already embarrassed the Jetta TDI in the run from LA to LV and back. Is it common in the diesel diehard community to be such a masochist that you want to see another beating?

    http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradvisor/2009/08/2009-edmunds-fuel-sipper-smackd- own-hybrids-versus-diesel-and-mini.html

    "The Back Roads
    The champ: 2010 Toyota Prius with 47.2 mpg
    2nd Place: 2010 Honda Insight with 44.1 mpg
    3rd Place: 2009 Volkswagen Jetta TDI with 41.2 mpg
    4th Place: 2010 Ford Fusion Hybrid with 39.6 mpg
    5th Place: 2009 Mini Cooper with 38.5 mpg

    This was the diesel Jetta's domain last year, but the all-new 2009 model falls back in the pack to a still-impressive 41.2 mpg due to a more powerful turbodiesel engine that did a better job tackling the extended grades through the Mojave and Death Valley. The all-new Prius, on the other hand, maintains its pace to take the first victory. As expected, the Insight came close to the Prius, but its mild-hybrid technology couldn't match the Toyota's full-hybrid setup, which features more battery power and a more highly developed ability to run on electricity only."

    "The City
    The champ: 2010 Toyota Prius with 48.7 mpg
    2nd Place: 2010 Honda Insight with 43.4 mpg
    3rd Place: 2010 Ford Fusion Hybrid with 35.1 mpg
    4th Place: 2009 Volkswagen Jetta TDI with 31.6 mpg
    5th Place: 2009 Mini Cooper with 30.1 mpg

    As expected, the 2010 Fusion Hybrid moved up in the rankings and the Jetta TDI took a dive during the 200-mile city driving loop through suburban Las Vegas."

    "The Highway
    The champ: 2010 Toyota Prius with 47.4 mpg
    2nd Place: 2009 Volkswagen Jetta TDI with 40.6 mpg
    3rd Place: 2010 Honda Insight with 38.6 mpg
    4th Place: 2010 Ford Fusion Hybrid with 36 mpg
    5th Place: 2009 Mini Cooper with 33.3 mpg"

    Oh, wait a sec.. you actually referred to the comparo of the old Gen 2 Prius to the current Gen TDI....Buwahahahahaha!!!! Ahhh, now I see..... You need to grasp at the slightest breath of positive fresh air, sort of like being alone at sea with no help in sight, ehhh? Here I'll throw you another gasp of fresh air. The current gen TDI is better than the Gen 1 Prius....: Have a blast.. :shades:
  • thammer62thammer62 Member Posts: 48
    The Prius hybrid is much more fuel efficient that the Vw TDI. No one is debating that. It's roughly 25% more fuel efficient than the Jetta is now or new Golf TDI will be. Why is MPG continually jammed down everyone's throat when it is clear which car is better in that catagory? MPG winner = PRIUS. We get it. Trust me, we get it.

    All I am saying is I will trade that 25% mileage difference for upper 30s overall mpg AND have fun driving each and every day in the new Golf. To each his own.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    You have not given us any facts only your biased opinion. For you real world is hybrid cars and specifically the ones you make your living on. That makes your comments suspect. I am not alone in believing the EPA has done an injustice to VW and their very efficient diesel cars. You can believe what you like. That does not in any way make it a fact. I would say more than not it is fantasy.

    http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradvisor/2008/05/2009-jetta-tdis-mediocre-epa-ra- ting-not-whole-story.html
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Show us something real world. Going a few hundred miles does not give a real true picture. The ball is in the Prius court. Can they top the Jetta TDI on a real around the USA trip?

    August 21, 2009, 1:42 pm
    Mileage Champs Break Another Record in VW Jetta TDI
    Together, the Taylors own nearly 40 world records for fuel economy, and this month they added to their tally by breaking the mileage record for driving the 48 contiguous United States. Their mark: 67.9 miles per gallon, achieved over 19 days and some 9,500 miles in a 2009 Volkswagen Jetta TDI.

    Indeed, the folks at the Guinness Book of World Records have some pretty strict rules about mileage driving — even a minor traffic violation would have disqualified the Taylors. For record-verification purposes, a Shell station manager checked their odometer at each stop. The couple also took time-stamped photographs at each state line.

    http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/21/mileage-champs-break-another-record-i- n-vw-jetta-tdi/
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Since you've been a member here so long I would have thought that you would have known these facts about the EPA ratings. Nothing stated above is an opinion. It's history.

    The fuel economy testing methods were created back when the FE ratings were first required to be shown on the Maroney labels. Nothing has been done to the testing protocols since then. What has been done is that the numbers have had 2 discounts applied to the data to make then numbers more accurate for day to day driving. I thought everyone knew this!! :confuse:
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    This means absolutely nothing.

    If they drove a 2010 Prius their mileage would be significantly better. So why is a Prius not on the world record books? Because nobody on earth can drive as fuel efficeintly as the Taylors. This is more about the driver than the car itself. Nobody else makes it their career to beat 40 world records.

    I look forward to the day when the Taylors drive a Prius because then that VW TDI mileage figure will look subpar at best. Unlike the second generation Prius the third generation has far superior highway mileage. There is no other car offered by any mainstream auto company that can beat the Prius in terms of city/highway mileage. NONE.

    As one poster previously quoted: "Why do we Prius owners always focus on MPG?" The reason is because the Prius mileage is alway being challenged here. Why? I guess fiction makes better reading than facts. Such as this idea of a EPA conspiracy? I guess anyone can make up conspiracies about almost anything including whether the latest Elvis seen in Vegas is nothing other than the ghost of Elvis.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Unfortunately your VW TDI was a piece of junk .

    I am grateful I dont own such a VW.

    I owned a problematical 07 BMW 335i that caused so much aggravation that I will neverbuy a BMW again. I hated it so much that I sold it even before the 4 year warranty expired.

    Superior German engineering without quality control is junk. Unfortunately there is a lot of German junk out there.

    Show me a German auto maker that can make a car as reliable as a Prius and I will show you Mercedes Benz in the 1970s and the early 80s. Unfortunately that involves history books and not the cars that are sold today at their dealerships
  • 104wb104wb Member Posts: 38
    Actually, for the 2008 ratings, data from three additional tests are factored into the fuel economy calculation. True, these are not new tests; they carry over from the emissions testing side. However one of these tests, a cold weather test, was never previously required of diesel cars, so no data existed to roll over to the fuel economy side. Diesel manufacturers were given the option of using the standard two tests and applying a 'fudge factor' (based on an extensive data base of 600+ gasoline powered vehicles, only 2-3 diesels), for the first couple of years. After that, all five tests have to be run. It could be the use of this gasoline-derived fudge factor that skews the diesel results, but that should go away once all five tests are being run to calculate the fuel economy. I do agree that the 2008+ ratings for diesels seem to underpredict. The EPA did have a document that admitted to probably underestimating diesel bt 18%' but that verbage was later removed (and I didn't save the original .pdf). Pretty uniformly, the diesel driver data on fueleconomy.gov shows the real-world 'average' to be at the EPA highway value. True, most of these populations are low, but combined Jetta population is statistically significant. This is in contrast to most gasoline inputs, where the average is close to the combined rating. I also agree that the diesels would have had a larger tax credit if the EPA city figure was more accurate.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    I would love to see that missing EPA document which involves larger sampling and more closely reflects the real world population than those tiny unrepresenative samples from fueleconomy.gov.

    Unfortunately it's not here. Do you know where I can access it?
  • 104wb104wb Member Posts: 38
    Here is the document. They derived their formula from 400+ cars, not 600+, and only one was a diesel. They were very much focused on more accurately reflecting hybrid mileage as they formulated the 2008 equations, you can see by reading the document.

    Interestingly, they used CR data, Edmunds data, and fueleconomy.gov data as a 'sanity check' as they developed their formulae. Again, the comment about underpredicting diesel by 18% can no longer be found.

    http://www.epa.gov/fueleconomy/420d06002.pdf
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