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Toyota Prius vs VW Golf TDI

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Comments

  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Sure I can understand the reluctance of the gasser users to go down that path.

    Great, I am glad you understand that we don't want to go even further off topic than we have already and take this very specific, car-oriented discussion into a whole 'nother realm, for which there are other discussions.

    I do salute you however for being the first driver I know of to have never driven a car that uses gasoline. I supposed there are lots of those in Europe, though.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    ..." first driver I know of to have never driven a car that uses gasoline"...

    1. That has NEVER been the case
    2. I have never claimed to have ever done that.
    3. I have never said that.
    4. It may be a mis-interpretation or mis-representation of something I may have wrote.
    5. I have approved this message ;)

    Might I also point out that on two points of ownership cost per mile driven (figured on 123,000 miles) : 1. fuel 2.depreciation, the Prius costs 23.6% more.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    From one "gasser" to another then... thanks for the clarification. :)
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    My 04 Honda Civic( quick and dirty analysis) (NON diesel, aka GASSER) should have been a dead give away. ;)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I was thrown off by your earlier statement that "gassers" would not want to go down the biofuel discussion path... but you seemed to want to head down that path.

    Anyway, your depreciation comment is inaccurate because you didn't provide all the parameters, so there is no way to calculate fuel cost or depreciation.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Really not to worry, you can provide your own. So for example, it was clear to me (in 03/04) the Civic and the TDI were app neck and neck cost wise. I just was tickled to see it historically turn out to actually BE neck and neck. Projection matches the history (actual) Life is good.

    ..."I just ran a quick and dirty analysis on a 04 Honda Civic and (cost per mile driven )the fuel cost= .08078, with the depreciation costs .061913 cents or .1427 cents per mile driven (fuel & depreciation) cheaper than the Prius and slightly cheaper than the TDI. "
  • gogogodzillagogogodzilla Member Posts: 707
    Why are you trying to justify your love for your Prius? Either you love it or you don't.

    Trying to qualify it with statistics from Consumer's Report lends the impression that you aren't completely sold by it and need outside reinforcement.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    OK let me forget the following statistics about the Prius.

    #1 MPG
    #1 Customer satisfaction--Best Loved Car 5 Years in a Row
    #1 Reliability
    #1 Best Value
    Best in Class for Safety
    #1 Best Enviro Car

    Now let's forget all the statistics above since they are not important at all and cannot be considered as worthy considerations for buying any car.

    So here's the truth:

    I despise the car so much that I am here pretending to love it just for the sake of annoying everybody here. In fact that is the only reason I bought my Prius: Just to annoy people in this forum.

    OOOH, I am glad I got all that off my chest.

    Thanks Dr. Freud. :P

    Anyways that's all Volks. I spent too much time here already and I still couldn't persuade Gagrice, Ruking, Mopar and all the other diesel fans here into buying a Prius. I am better off spending time selling banana plantations in Canada.

    I
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    ..."Anyways that's all Volks. I spent too much time here already and I still couldn't persuade Gagrice, Ruking, Mopar and all the other diesel fans here into buying a Prius. I am better off spending time selling banana plantations in Canada. "...

    For me it is truly not for want of location or how the local dealer treats me. One of THE biggest TO MO CO dealers in the region has been 3 miles door to door from the house. It is literally a DREAM to deal with these folks. Not only that, they actually do superb maintenance !! Sure like anyone else, there are the occasional mistakes. (have been dealing with them for 23 years, when they were at another location, ) When that happens they literally get into customer service overdrive to correct it. So really outside of getting it right the first time, what more could you ask for?

    All I need do is ask and they will let me take a Prius (or anything else for that matter) literally for as long as I like. They do like me to take a demo, if I am planning to put major miles on. They will even dispatch a flat bed if I can't or dont want to drive the 3 miles in. :blush: I usually like to go in to see what is new on the floor and talk tech with the service department. I do also like the fresh coffee and pastries. ;) While I don't normally like to pack a computer there, they have WI FI and set ups so you can either make a work station or living room with cable TV if you want to camp there for any reason.
  • marlyecemarlyece Member Posts: 26
    who cares about the snack assortment offered at your local dealership? wow has this forum veered off track.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Obviously I do. :P Or to be more on point, their LARGE customer base does.

    It is pretty obvious (to me anyway), a lot of Prius owners (probably the majority) are not gear heads, like perhaps... some of us might be. I really do not think the dealership (or your local one) would go to all this (described) trouble and expense, if efforts like this didn't give them a real good dial in connection with their customer base.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    It is pretty obvious (to me anyway), a lot of Prius owners (probably the majority) are not gear heads, like perhaps... some of us might be.

    How do you figure that? What is the correlation between someone owning a Prius and not being a gearhead? Many Prius owners love technology, and that is one of the reasons they state for buying one. That would tend to make them "gearheads", or maybe more accurately "chipheads".

    Anyway, you may have missed it but the transaxle in the 2010 Prius uses gears vs. belt, so that makes Prius owners even more "gearheads" than before. :)
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    ..."How do you figure that? What is the correlation between someone owning a Prius and not being a gearhead? "...

    Have I done correlation studies ? No ! They are purely my .02 observations. All my friends (that own them) are about the farthest thing from DIY'ers that you can imagine. Also part of the feelings in saying come from talking extensively with the Toyota service managers AND Prius techs (I probably shouldn't say this, but they do let me into and hang in the service bays) On the other hand, what correlation study tells you that most are.... gear heads? :confuse:
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Love of technology ==> Gearhead.

    Next question?

    BTW... I am amazed you still have friends who own a Prius. I figure you would have driven them all away by now. ;)
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Then everyone is by your definition a GEARHEAD !? Please.... let's let the words have some meaning? ;) Or why are you holding me to a higher standard and you... have none? :blush:
  • marlyecemarlyece Member Posts: 26
    the cost of donuts, soda, coffee, wi-fi are all subsidized by you...the customer. i'm not overly impressed by the 3 year/36 mo. maintenance that vw includes with a new car. yes, i love vw cars but the price of the maintenance is also embedded within the sticker price paid. i could say that service is stellar...how awesome! free maintenance. is any of this really free? NO. customer always ends up paying for it in the end.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    That is true, it is. In the same breath you are saying so is VW service. Tell us something we all don't know.

    In contrast, VW's service reputation is one of those negatives VW has to over come. Trust me, I did not buy a TDI on VW's reputation for... service. So why is it that you get bent out of shape, as I praise one Toyota dealer's service? Or are you just sharpening your disagree- able skills? ;)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    My local Audi dealer is offering free oil changes for life. If they would offer the 2010 A4 Allroad Quattro TDI with the 2.0L I would be tempted at MSRP. I would not even think twice about the Golf TDI. The dealer does not think they will bring that model to the USA.

    My experience with Toyota dealers in San Diego is less than I would like. Best dealer I have dealt with is Drew Ford/VW/Hyundai and second Bob Stall Chevrolet. Both worlds better than the local Toyota dealers.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Yep, things can change in the blink of an eye. The so called "preferred Chevy" dealer/s around here has changed literally 5 times. The latest one has already moved... so like 5.5. The truth is I have never used them. So I really do not know. Anymore Buyer Beware is the FIRST RULE, if it ever was not the first rule.

    To look at their latest marketing sheet, they service ALL GM vehicles

    1. Chevrolet
    2. Cadillac
    3. Buick
    4. Pontiac
    5. GMC
    6. Hummer
    7. Saturn.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Or why are you holding me to a higher standard and you... have none?

    Oh I do. Which is why I challenged you on the assertion you made about Prius owners and gearheads. Since you made the assertion, the burden of proof is yours. Or we can just blow it off as just another casual observation and keep talking about cookies and coffee at various dealerships, and which brands GM dealerships service.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Then grow up and...Don't .

    I have said at least twice, that was an opinion and NOT a correlation.

    Or correlate this:

    ..."Love of technology ==> Gearhead. "...

    ..."Since you made the assertion, the burden of proof is yours."...
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I like the "grow up" idea better. Let's all do that together, shall we?
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    That still leaves you ....needing standards? ;) So if it is your opinion/correlation that Prius ownership makes you a gear head then ... TDI ownership does the same, according to your logic. This is clearly not so,... in my opinion.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    You are misstating my opinions. Not sure why, but it doesn't matter. Let's move on to the "grow up" portion of the discussion, eh?
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    No. I am applying your logic in print. If you do not agree with the (your) logic say so. I have already indicated I do not agree with it.... but that is... only my opinion.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I do agree with my logic. I don't agree with how you are twisting it.

    And that's all I have to say about that.
    --- Forrest Gump
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    Let's keep this from being a personal thing OK?
  • gogogodzillagogogodzilla Member Posts: 707
    You're making my point.

    Why do you need all that external support for you to love your Prius?

    I have a GTI and I know it's not as fuel-efficient as many cars out there. I know it's not the most reliable car, either. But I love my car. I don't need positive reviews from Consumer's Reports for me to love it.

    Why do you?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I don't need positive reviews from Consumer's Reports for me to love it.

    Why do you?

    Herd mentality. Everyone is doing it, therefore it must be good. It looks to me like this thread follows the same division we are experiencing in this country. The Prius people say it is for the common good, the Golf people say it is freedom for the individual to choose.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    The (quick and dirty comparisons 122,000 miles) depreciation and fuel costs (per mile driven) would indicate that diesel would be the ideal mix between road ability, cost , longevity. It is hampered at the regulatory levels in that the emissions standards keep changing, taxation is "artificially kept " higher for diesel fuel, and the passenger diesel population kept low, due to (anti) diesel policies.

    If Prius (hybrid) folks want to pay app 23/24%or even more to do the same work (per mile driven),that is indeed a choice. Nobody (not me anyway) has any qualms for them chosing that, as long as there remains (I have ) the choice of paying minus- 23/24% and probably more importantly, even less !!. Three issues: 1. the relentless drive to eliminate these choices 2. ever increasing costs for less and less product 3. ever increasing year over year consumption while claiming we are working hard to consume.... less.

    Alternative fuels, such as diesel should get credit for the fact that they can run up to 100% less gasoline !! The policies (actually) signal they are less than tolerated.

    Again this is a mathematical certainty, but it is hard (actually impossible) to get off gasoline when the darling of the use less to no gasoline advocates want to mandate gasoline use !!?? ......aka (GASSER) Prius'es for example ??

    This is far from being a revelation or even news, but it even makes all more sense than ever before to buy used cars or keep cars past the normal populations average age of 9.3 years. (US drivers yearly average: 12,000 to 15,000 miles=) or in real terms: 111,600 to 139,500 miles. There is little to no reward for buying a new car except ever increasing pricing for ever more disposable and even more cheaply made vehicles. Indeed the ever increasing prices and ever increasing depreciations are defacto penalties and additional taxation.
  • thammer62thammer62 Member Posts: 48
    I like how ruking1 moved on amicably after backy was just straight up rude. Kudos to you ruking. My opinion of prius owners is going south by the day - each day I log on and read backy's posts. Watch the South Park episode about Prius owners - you are in it backy.
  • dchevdchev Member Posts: 38
    WV is a good company, making very nice vehicles.
    Toyota is also a good company making good vehicles.
    The ride in my 2010 Prius (Package V) is excellent. It is true that it is not as fast as Golf; however, it is fast enough for my needs. I can go with 60-70-80-90 miles without any problem....and the car is stable on the road. Now, going to a gas station once or twice a month is even better. Do not you think that It is a incredible feeling to go with 10 Gallons of gas 550-600 miles?
    I have one comment for all TDI fans. Check out the new International Auto Show in Frankfurt, Germany, and you will see that WV has its hands on hybrid and electrical cars for the future. They made a mistake by not developing hybrid car before, and it might cost them extra money now.
    Enjoy driving your TDI cars, while I can enjoy my Prius. The time will tell who made better decision! :)
    Peace out! :) :shades:
  • thammer62thammer62 Member Posts: 48
    See - now that was a good, open minded post from a prius guy. Thank you Dchev - that was refreshing. I hope VW does explore some diesel hybrid options while maintaining their german feel and driving characteristics. Anything that is in the direction of being better for the environment than standard gas engines.... diesel, hybrid, hydrogen, lithium ion - or any combo of these is a good thing.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Or why are you holding me to a higher standard and you... have none?

    Then grow up and ... Don't.

    That still leaves you needing standards.

    This is what you call "amicable"? :confuse:

    Also, I don't own a Prius. So I don't think you'll find me in any South Park episode on Prius owners (btw, is that an "amicable" comment?) I am considering one within the next few years, however. I do own a Rabbit (aka Golf). Was there a South Park episode for Golf owners--maybe you'd see me there. ;)
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Actually checking the new International Auto Show (in Frankfurt, Germany) or any other non specific US market show offer's in many cases can be an exercise in futility. As I have said probably in other threads or even a prior post (in this thread) many if not a majority of good cars; and probably germane to you good mph vehicles are kept out of the US market.

    So for example, the 71 mpg VW TDI POLO that is supposed to hit the US markets. 42% better fuel mileage for a purpose driven daily commute might be a hit.

    for only 5 examples:
    1. @ much less technological complexity
    2. less weight
    3. greener manufacturing processes
    4. longer (customer) life
    5..less (probable) cost per mile driven

    would get me excited.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I was disappointed that Smart TwoFor was not offered here with the 74 MPG diesel engine sold in Canada. The guy I talked to while I was in Victoria was getting 90 MPG cruising around Vancouver Island at 50 MPH. The EPA and CARB wanted no part of that picture. Think of the lost tax revenue?
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I read in passing the Smart2 For (around here) gets app 39 mpg on PUG? Even @ 39 mpg, I think the EPA and CARB are looking at ways to kill it and that is a GASSER. (131% better fuel milege)- heaven help us if we REALLY CONSERVE, eh?
  • 104wb104wb Member Posts: 38
    I have an interesting comparison between the Prius and the Golf TDI. Well, interesting to me, but unlikely to sway anyone in their purchase decision. It is a comparison of steady-state driving efficiency. I had found this website: http://www.epa.gov/otaq/tcldata.htm which lists the a-b-c coefficients for all 2009 vehicles. the abc's are used to calculate the roadload (force) at a given speed (v) by a + b*v + c*v^2.

    When I calculated this for all vehicles in the spreadsheet at 70 mph, the Prius stood out as having the lowest force (hence least work performed over a given distance) of any of the cars, at 110 pounds. Interestingly, the Chevy Cobalt was second at 118 pounds, along with Honda Civic and a couple of Hyundai / Kia. The Golf's (Rabbit's) force was 137 pounds, OK but not spetacular, and 25% greater than the Prius'. Kudos to the Prius for being efficient of form. It's doing the least amount of work to transport four people. But does that mean it is more fuel efficient than the Golf? Not necessarily.

    Fuel efficiency is a measure of work output / energy input. It is a fraction, up to 1.0. It is a measure of the efficiency of the powertrain, really. In this case, the SI engine with CVT and regeneration vs. the diesel with manual (or automated manual) gearbox. Here's where talking MPGs falls apart if you are trying to compare powertrain efficiency. MPG doesn't tell you how much work has been done (miles isn't work, it is just distance), or how much energy was used (gallons of what?). More information is needed. Fortunately, for a steady state, like 70 mph, we can calculate the force from the abc's. We can also look up the amount of energy in a gallon of fuel (gasoline, diesel) here: http://www.afdc.energy.gov/afdc/fuels/properties.html
    So efficiency = work / available fuel. Work = force * distance, so efficiency = force * MPG / LHV of fuel. For a steady 70 mph on flat ground, the only thing I don't know is how many MPGs each vehicle gets. Let me assume that the '09 Prius gets 52 MPG and the Golf gets 46 MPG at 70 mph. Someone may have better figures, but I think these are reasonable from http://www.fueleconomy.gov/mpg/MPG.do?action=browseList.

    The fuel efficiency of the Prius is then 33.4% and the Golf is 33.3%. I don't think you could get any closer than that. Again, kudos to the Prius, because matching the efficiency of a diesel with an SI engine is hard to do. However, using this analysis, you can calculate that any diesel, whether Golf or 7000 pound Cummins pickup is over 30% efficient at this steady speed. So Kudos to diesel technology, regardless of what sheetmetal it is surrounded by, for being efficient. Most SI powered vehicles are about 25% efficient at this speed.

    In the city, any hybrid will be more efficient than a diesel because of regeneration and stop/start, unless the diesel also has those technologies.

    Final thought, if Volkswagen could get the roadload (abc's) of the Golf to be the same as the Prius, it would get 10% better MPGs than the Prius because there is 10% more energy in a gallon of diesel than gasoline.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    There is a (net effect) flaw in your analysis and you have alluded to it. The hybrid (gasser) gains its "perceived" mpg advantage by the % time it is OFF ; that is techno speak for off. The practical percentage is 20%. That is one of the real utilities of the so called hybrid advantage, another being the "engine off during idle" feature which is not excluded to diesel. Some European diesels in fact do have it. (BMW 1 series TDI) As for the difference in energy content between gasoline and diesel, why would you want to further refine it out of the natural consquences of the refinery process of 46% gasoline to 23% diesel? This is almost nonsensical. So given that natural consequences, a HUGE technological break through would be; being able to refine 100% of either RUG to PUG or D2. This has not happened in @ least 100 years. (there are other reasons for this but we are just talking fuel mileage here) So as a result, D2 will retain the 20-40% advantage. So while 50-52 mpg in a Prius is great, what would be wrong with a diesel Prius @ 70/73 mpg?
  • 104wb104wb Member Posts: 38
    I don't understand what you mean by % off time as it pertains to my 70mph steady state analysis. Engine off time? Like running off of batteries? Does the Prius do that? Even if it did, that's still part of the overall powertrain efficiency. All of the energy stored in the batteries was at some point generated from the gasoline. Draw a box around the Prius. Gasoline in, work out. What happens inside the box (energy management) is part of the powertrain efficiency. Now a Plug in is more compolex because it has two energy sources.

    I don't understand what you meean by refining out natural consequences. Diesel has 10% more energy than gasoline. That's a good thing for vehicle range, A diesel Prius would get higher mileage. That would also be a good thing.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Pretty easy, from a practical point of view.

    I should state my TDI's real world consumption @70 mph, to be in excess of 59 mpg.
    I say in excess (inxs) because I can easily get 59 mpg @ 75 mpg with bursts to 80/85 mpg.

    So at a steady 70 mpg...(I swag) 60-65 mpg. This would be what, 15 mph better than the Prius? Not bad for the aerodynamics of a brick, eh? Of course this probably would be dismissed out of hand by the Prius folks? :blush:
  • thammer62thammer62 Member Posts: 48
    I think if you took a prius and a golf tdi and rolled them into a ball you'd have a really fun to drive, super efficient automobile. Call it the Priolf or the Golfius.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I would say the perceptions of unreliability and unresponsive to dismal customer/repair service are major boat anchors that VW has to shed. :lemon: So for example if you get a statistically average VW and have great independent shop support, those are not real issues anymore. :shades:

    Indeed if what I read is true, good Toyota dealer repair service is about as rare as hens teeth. :lemon:
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > Of course this probably would be dismissed out of hand by the Prius folks?

    Since you can't actually buy it anymore, nor will you be able to in the future, dismissing is easy. It's hard to take the comparison seriously when the vehicle doesn't even meet minimum emission criteria and it forces you to shift gears yourself.

    Show me an automatic shifting diesel-fueled vehicle that is at least as clean as a common new non-hybrid gasser that delivers an average (city & highway combined) of 50 MPG, then reminder yourself that Prius is even cleaner.

    Face it, non-hybrid diesel simply doesn't cut the mustard.
    .
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Interesting article from WSJ on the impact of C4C on VW and BMW diesel sales, including the Jetta TDI. Also discusses the general barriers to adoption of diesels in the U.S. A couple mentions of the Prius, but mostly it's about diesels:

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203440104574401103200521582.html
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    ..."Face it, non-hybrid diesel simply doesn't cut the mustard. "...

    Face it, a 70 mpg Polo beats 50 mpg hybrid gasser by 40%.

    Interesting that you are of the burning more is actually better than burning less point of view. And you wonder why America actually burns more??? I would not have a clue why........... :lemon:

    Of course 12 to 17 k cheaper drawfs what Toyota asks for the Prius.

    I'd try to keep it out of the country too, if I had the adversarial attitude that EPA, CARBS and seemingly you have also.

    Really in terms of competition ,the Camry hybrid more matches the Jetta in hp (147 hp vs VW TDI 140 hp. Torque (the real motivator) is somewhat mismatched @ 138# ft vs TDI's 236 #ft. Also the EPA is 33c/34h/34 comb vs TDI 29c/40h/33 comb.
    Camry is app $2,800 more MSRP.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Of course 12 to 17 k cheaper drawfs what Toyota asks for the Prius.

    A Polo diesel for $10,000? Bring it over, I'll buy one!!
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    The article I read was like (swag) 7,725 BPS. So at 1.638 times USD conversion, more like $12,700 ? US or so...............
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    That was for a US-spec model? Since that's about the same price as a strippo Smart ForTwo, I'd be shocked if VW could bring a diesel Polo over here for anything close to that.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    I have seen where the Polo pricing will start at around 17K.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

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