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Toyota Prius vs VW Golf TDI
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Comments
WIth all the time to post on the web, at least one TDI fan must have time to go testdrive a 2010 Prius and then file 14 NHTSA complaints.
And Bob W you seem to have a bunch of time - live a little and get out there and flog a TDI during a testdrive, and then call ABC news & LA times and file the NHTSA complaints!
Maintenance is included for 3 years 36,000 miles on the Golf TDI.
". . . your skewed economy numbers . . . "
The source is the EPA web site, www.fueleconomy.gov. But since you
seem interested in my numbers, let's start with the Edmunds mileage
numbers for urban travel.
Most of my travel is in Huntsville and though I'm getting closer to
52 MPG, I don't have any TDI numbers. So we'll borrow the Edmunds
numbers:
48 MPG - NHW20 Prius urban
32 MPG - Jetta TDI
We typically drive 20,000 miles per year, mostly urban, but we cruise
on the highway at speeds that typically provide similar mileage.
20000 / 48 ~= 417 gallons
20000 / 32 ~= 625 gallons
- - - -
208 gallons, extra diesel bought
Using $2.50/gallon for diesel:
$520 per year - more than one car payment per year
You wrote:
". . . you are going to be swearing . . . "
We bought our first Prius in 2005. Four years later, we bought our second one. Repeat customers, we are quite happy. Gawd d*mn happy.
Bob Wilson
". . . TDI during a testdrive"
Actually I want to rent a TDI for 2-3 days. Know of anyone?
They need to be within say 150 miles of Huntsville AL and I would have no
problem with driving over and renting one for a weekend.
I've already visited the local VW dealer and sat in a Jetta TDI. That is how
I found out about the driver side door jam blocking my view to the left lane.
Seriously, I'll rent a TDI if we can find one for rent ... anywhere within a two
hour drive. Perhaps you know a TDI owners in Huntsville AL who would
agree to a vehicle swap, after handling the insurance issues, for a weekend?
Bob Wilson
I found out about the driver side door jam blocking my view to the left lane.
That is the funniest thing you have posted yet. A Prius driver worried about blind spots. The biggest complaint from owners of the 2010 Prius is the horrible blind spots. That and numb steering and uncomfortable seats.
Knock yourself out, scrolling past repeat posts is easy.
VW does not need to sell their vehicles to the rental agencies. They sell all they can get to the dealers. No discounts on the TDI models yet. Big discounts on the Prius when they are removed from the no sell list.
I've never of any VW for rent in USA, either gas or dieseI.
A PriusTDI weekend-vehicle-swap between pals is a neat idea.
I think there wouldn't be any insurance issues, as long as both parties had their own insurance.
I do have a close friend locally who has a pre-2010 Prius, the one in which I rode a couple times. Hmm... If we make it happen, I will surely post afterwards!
cheers...
". . . you have posted those over sized charts before."
They show the source material, the original data with
the back-up facts and data. I'm really posting for visitors
who may not have ready access to empirical, hard, data.
They wouldn't be necessary if misleading and inaccurate
posting weren't slow-pitched in this thread.
Bob Wilson
I have a 2010 Prius and am looking for a Huntsville Alabama area,
TDI owner to swap with for a weekend or whatever makes sense. I still
want to make sure both insurance companies are 'cool' with a short
term rider.
Bob Wilson
"According to Toyota they will start sending out letters next week . . ."
Fri. 2010/02/05 - Announcement comes out about voluntary Prius brake recall
Mon-Wed. - Saw posting about A0B fix working
Wed 2010/02/10 - Called and schedule brake fix along with oil change and tire rotation.
Thu. 2010/02/11 - Dealer called and left message about recall.
Fri. 2010/02/12 - Dealer called a second time and left message about recall.
Found e-mail from dealer about recall.
Sat. 2010/02/13 - Car at dealer for schedule maintenance and brake fix.
The reason I bring this up is Toyota is using the telephone and e-mail to contact
Prius owners. I've not seen the letter but it won't have any effect ... I've
already got the A0B software.
Bob Wilson
TORRANCE, Calif., February 8, 2010 – Toyota Motor Sales (TMS), U.S.A., Inc, today announced it will conduct a voluntary safety recall on approximately 133,000 2010 Model Year Prius vehicles to update software in the vehicle’s antilock brake system (ABS). No other Toyota vehicles are involved in this recall.
The recall will allow Toyota dealers to perform the software update on 2010 Prius vehicles sold prior to this running production change. Only Prius vehicles produced since May 2009 are subject to this recall. First- and second-generation Prius vehicles use a different ABS system and are not involved in this campaign.
Toyota will begin mailing letters to Prius owners included in this recall next week to let them know when to bring their vehicles into a dealership. Owners will only receive a letter if their vehicle is involved in the recall.
http://www.toyota.com/recall/abs.html
"Hopefully you did get a fix for your brakes."
I did. I had test data documenting the brake pause before the fix. Afterwards,
I repeated the earlier tests and the A0B fix is quite effective. I have graphs
showing the before and after results ... if you are interested.
Bob Wilson
BEFORE it gets personal and out of hand, let's all pull back a bit and realize that changing the other guy's mind isn't very likely. I like a good debate as much as anyone, so lets keep it at that level and avoid going after each other... thanks!
After all, those pushy Prius advocates will no doubt head right over there ... NOT!
Bob Wilson
PS
This has been around a while:
http://vlane.com/comparison/2118
"It is linked to the diesel forum and the Golf links. We have had Prius people beating us down in those threads since the Prius was first announced 10 years ago."
I went to those forums and didn't see the same title for a thread.
You metioned:
"You are a mild diesel hater debater compared to John1701."
I've met John1701 in person and other forums and he is a nice guy. The funny thing is I came here to make sure folks had the latest facts and data about A0B, the brake pause. I typically don't go looking for TDI forums to 'spin them up.'
Bob Wilson
First, they are available for sale or lease NOW. As Bob mentioned, it takes very little time to apply the software fix for the brakes.
Second, I don't understand something. A few posts ago you talked about how much more expensive the Prius is compared to the Golf TDI. But now you talk about "big discounts" on the Prius. How big are they? $1000? $2000? More?
Golf TDI 5-door with AT: $24,610 MSRP including destination.
You noted that VW dealers are not discounting the Golf TDI, so let's assume that is the price.
Prius 5-door with "AT" (more like CVT): $23,550 MSRP
So for comparable base models, the Prius is more than $1000 less than the TDI looking at MSRPs. But after applying the "big discounts" you mentioned, now the base Prius is thousands less than the base TDI.
As for adding a moonroof, the Prius III with moonroof is $28,380 MSRP. But that car includes navigation and Bluetooth. A comparably equipped 5-door Golf TDI lists at $27,559. Since there are no discounts, that is the price. Now apply the "big discounts" available on the Prius, and it will cost less than the Golf. Plus the Prius will have that nifty solar-powered moonroof with the ventilator fan and remote AC control.
Try to find a stripped Prius. Not many in CA. Even with discounts the price average is $27k to $32k. Plus TTL which is over $3000. Add $3000 more for the NAV moonroof option. You will have a hard time getting out of a Toyota dealer in CA with a Prius for less than $30k cash. It will be easier with the current debacle going on at Toyota. Should I say it is a buyers market for the risk takers. :shades:
Finding a Prius is easy. First dealer in San Diego I pulled up has 60 in stock. If you want a Golf TDI you will have to wait and pay MSRP. That is against all my principles. So I will keep what I have till I find what I want at the price I want to pay.
No one says he is not a nice guy. He just loves hybrids and hates diesel cars. So we have been debating in the diesel forums for at least 7 years. I have come to really enjoy driving diesel vehicles and am frustrated with the obstacles put up by the regulators that are beholden to the oil companies. My experience with hybrids having owned one is far from positive.
$24,610 is with optional DSG and is for the 4 door.
Unfortunately, Prius is not available in a 2 door.
Unfortunately, Prius is not available with a manual transmission.
Unfortunately, maintenance is not included with Prius.
I did a search on Autotrader and found several new 2010 Prius for sale for $21,802.
Prius is less cost than Golf TDI.
Sometimes, cheaper is not better.
The closest dealer to me had eight as of last Saturday. But MN is not CA... thankfully.
Add $3000 more for the NAV moonroof option.
I did. As I explained, Prius is less expensive than the Golf TDI even with those options, after we apply the "big discounts" you say are available on the Prius now.
BTW, I just did a search of new Priuses within 100 miles of 90210 and there were 651. Nearly 100 of those were base models, under $24k. Nearly 150 were under $25k. So it appears there's quite a few of "stripped" Prius available in CA, at least in SoCal.
I don't find it unfortunate that the Prius is not available as a 2-door hatchback. I find a 4-door hatch far more useful. Also, most car buyers in the US opt for automatic transmissions, so the lack of a stick shift isn't a factor for most buyers. I agree, cheaper is not necessarily better.
The recall on the Prius and the no sell has created a glut. As I posted before it is a buyers market if you can stand the numb handling, uncomfortable seats and highway noise. You may get a buy of sorts. Don't expect the high resale of the past. Toyota has pretty much screwed that up.
As long as someone doesn't buy a Prius and then try to sell it in an year or so, I don't think there will be any impact on resale value. The Prius is still the only mid-sized hatchback hybrid car and the only car capable of routinely averaging mid-50s mpg across a mix of driving conditions with typical driving techniques. It's not like it has a lot of competition in the resale market, which in case you haven't noticed is edging up in general of late.
Prius is still the only mid-sized hatchback hybrid car and the only car capable of routinely averaging mid-50s mpg
There is the Insight that is not plagued with safety recalls. Looks like Honda did not pay off the EPA. Even though the owners are reporting higher mileage than Prius owners. The EPA has them rated 9 MPG lower. It pays to have connections in the Federal Government. 2010 Prius owners report 49.0 MPG. Insight owners report 49.5 MPG. Something fishy there. I knew the diesel ratings were screwed up by the EPA. First I have noticed a big discrepancy in a hybrid. You be the judge.
Most buyers opt for non-hybrid, non-diesel vehicles.
Choice is good. 2 door, 4 door, hatchback, sedan, gasoline, diesel, hybrid, manual, automatic.....
Would be wonderful if Toyota sold their diesels here. VW will offer hybrids soon.
Given the small sample size for the Insight (13), I don't think it's enough data to substantiate a plot by the Federal Government to prop up Toyota relative to other makes.
Test of the older platform MkV Jetta, not the newer Golf. Still, it is relevant to this topic.
This is something many of the diesel haters do not realize. I found it to be true with my 05 Passat TDI on the trip home from buying it in Oregon. I searched out the ARCO/BP stations that were the early adopters of ULSD, and never had smelly hands from fueling up. And my eyes did not burn from the fumes like they do with RUG.
PS
Every head to head match-up that I have read with real world cross country driving the diesel has won over the hybrid. So it depends on the need.
My Jeep Liberty CRD gets me 29 - 31 MPG on the road with a 2.8L four cylinder turbo diesel. The Liberty also has the aerodynamics of a cinder block. The closet hybrid is the Toyota Highlander which cannot match the open road FE of my Jeep.
This takes full advantage of the electric mode.
When it comes to long distance trips which the US has lots of long distances hybrids are essentially in the same vehicle category as their closest gas counter part only they are hauling hybrid gear and weight around.
The prius looks like it does because they are trying to eek out as much drag reduction as possible. The down side is the Prius has some pretty bad blind spots and looks like a wedge on wheels.
When it comes to lots of stop and go traffic in locations with not so mild weather be it Arizona heat or Chicago cold diesel is king simply due to the low fuel consumption at idle. The hybrids need to run their gas engine to produce heat or cool air.
Driving dynamics there isn't a single Toyota built hybrid or otherwise that can match a VW when it comes to the pure driving experience and it has nothing to do with German design. Has everything to do with Toyota building the most generic vehicles possible for the widest possible audience.
As for hybrid tech - the crown jewel will be a fantastic Diesel paired to a hybrid system. Mercedes is probably going to be the first to the US with a car that sets the standard for hybrid driving performance and milege in the next few years. A much better technology pairing for the hybrid tech we currently know.
Both are bandaid solutions for the end goal of reduced dino fuel consumption. Though if a major break through in bio fuel happens the diesel vehicles will be the first to reap the profits. Given diesel type fuel powers our country's economy and will be first to get any sort of bio fuel production.
You know how your prius gets delivered to the dealer right? Shipped via diesel and bunker fueled ships - then shipped via train or truck running diesel. And when you fly to see grandma the jet is burning fuel which is nearly a fraternal twin to diesel.
Last of all - gas engines produce max power at RPM's that people seldom ever reach in every day use- making the HP ratings loudly touted by all the marketing BS - just that complete BS.
Yet every day drivers easily operate their diesel vehicle in a range that produces max power 1200-2000 rpm. Making them way more practical and efficient for daily use.
Take the average CA Prius owner and disable the electric system and the milege difference they get will be a very small percentage between having hybrid tech in a slippery car and not having it in a slippery car.
Bombing down highway 280 at 80mph is not leveraging the hybrid technology in the car its leveraging the lower drag shape of the prius.
Sitting in 90 degree summer heat in stop and go traffic on a 6 lane highway in LA does not take advantage of the Prius hybrid tech. It takes advantage of the small gas engine having lower fuel consumption running the compressor than the 180hp honda civic in the next lane. :shades:
First, the engine in Prius uses an Atkinson-Miller pumping cycle. So, all by itself it is more efficient than the standard Otto type.
Second, the A/C in Prius is electric. That's more efficient that a traditional belt driven system. In fact, the water pump is a beltless electric too.
Third, what "closest gas counter part" are you comparing to? The "essentially the same" comment about long distances trips just plain is not true. I see 45 to 50 on the highway. Low 50's on the good days during the summer.
Fourth, If simply shaping a non-hybrid like Prius would achieve that, why in the world aren't automakers doing that? It would be a very easy way to achieve CAFE requirements.
The average with my 2010 Prius so far (as of 15,355 miles) is 50.3 MPG.
Where's the diesel hybrid VW keeps talking about... with at least a SULEV emission rating, of course.
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Watkin State is my kind of state , wherever it might be
ps - 45 tdi mpg on all my recent winter tanks! previous winters it dropped to 42. (i didn't put the bliizzaks on the car this winter - seems like that saved another 10% mpg. )
pps - oh my goodness, a Prius can get 10% more mpg than a TDI! OH NOOO!
PS
You like SULEV I'm happy with LEV. The new VW/Audi TDIs are cleaner than the Camry V6 it would be compared with for power and driveability. And lest we forget. The Audi A3 TDI is the GREEN CAR OF THE Year. Same drive train as the Golf TDI we are comparing to the Prius. Handling, comfort and safety are more important the MPG and emissions to me. Here is the testimony of an A3 TDI person that traded in a Prius.
Review
Traded in a 2008 Prius that had a lot of technology but no comfort. The A3 is amazing and so beyond all I could ask for. It is very upscale inside and out. The mpg is excellent and the torque is a thrill. The Ipod interface allows me to have a lot of CD's in an organized fashion, and the Bose sound is so clear and deep. The Navigation has real time traffic and a crisp and clear screen. I love the LED lights front and back. The car in Ibis white looks very European, especially with the black open sky roof. The transmission feels like a manual without all the work. Storage room is a little better than the Prius. I highly recommend the A3 TDI for MPG as well as practicality.
So there is the testimony of the person that has owned both.
And yes that particular car was built like a tank with all the latest safety gear and was listed as the top safety pick over all the big American heavy detroit vehicles at the time.
By the way the electric compressor and electric power steering idea is being used by other companies also. Yes you need the little gas engine running when your using all the juice up from the very small battery capacity the Prius has for the given application.
The same place Toyota keeps it's fun-to-drive, canyon-carving, razor-sharp handling Priuses.
Also, what was the performance and comfort of this hatchback? Could it comfortably hold 4 large adults? What was its 0-60? Did it have a stick or automatic?
BTW, there was no such thing as a "top safety pick" in 1982. That designation was not invented by the IIHS until many years later.
VW Dasher diesel. Not fast - but built like a freaking tank all the latest safety gear at the time not only did it have seat belts but it had tensioner seat belts not the automatic goofy ones that motored up over your shoulders.
We put 140K on that car everything from around town to long road trips through the Pacific NW doing back country backpacking from logging roads. It went places most SUV's never go.
Even in todays crash standards it would fair pretty damn well.
One thing for sure it wasn't the fold up toy the Honda CRX was.
A plug-in hybrid is a joke as one is shifting the carbon load to the electric companies and most electricity in this country is generated using either coal, oil or natural gas.
Gasoline engines, no matter which cycle type they use, emit far more unburned hydrocarbon and carbon monoxide than an diesel ever will.
As to the VW diesel hybrid, it is in testing and will be here sooner rather than later. The brakes will work on all surfaces and the system will not shutdown when trying to go up a slippery hill or driveway like some other hybrid we know.
http://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/search/vehicleDetails.asp?id=19051
http://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/search/vehicleDetails.asp?id=21205
http://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/search/vehicleDetails.asp?id=23491
Check out how clean VW has gotten their diesels.
http://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/search/vehicleDetails.asp?id=24265
This last entry is for the Jeep Cherokee (Liberty in the U.S.) Very clean emissions when compared to the Prius.
http://www.leftlanenews.com/volkswagen-jetta-coupe.html
It's always interesting to see how long someone will milk outdated information.
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Both are more efficient though. So, it's still a reduction. Isn't that the point?
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Yet, using E10 in my Prius is still more efficient than a hybrid diesel.
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There are still 1000s of 2010 Prius owners running on the old defective brake system. Toyota is only updating those vehicles in cold climate areas. So what happens to the poor [non-permissible content removed] that decides to move from CA to MN and is clueless about the update? He could find out the hard way. It is just more of the inept handling of customers by a dysfunctional company, Toyota.
Rather than outdated, it's fictional.
Where in the world did you hear that? For that matter, why would anyone think temperature was an influence?
All will get the update. Few ever encountered potholes large enough to trigger the pause anyway.
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Hence the benefit of hybrid reduction of consumption.
Let's not forget that biodiesel actually increases NOx emissions, which are worse than gasoline in the first place.
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Where in the world did you hear that?
I cannot find the article that stated the Recall for 2010 Prius brakes was limited to the colder states. If I do I will post again. However it is not an outdated issue. As the recall has just started. With all the other vehicles in the Toyota bays it could take months to get your brake update.