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Comments
I really don't see why GM wouldn't handle this issue better. GM must know this is a chronic issue - just a few minutes on edmunds, nhtsa, youtube, facebook, and the saturn outlook boards and the outlook clone sites and it's clear how big of an issue it is. They're going to wait until the leak causes significant damage to the car instead of dealing with the leak sooner? I don't get it - is this a way to get more service $$$ at the expense of the cars reputation, resale value and GMs reputation?
Sad, but is it going to take a string of accidents and injuries from the enging running, shifting, power steering, etc. issues before this gets addressed by GM properly?
Last night while my family and I were driving back home we almost died thanks to my leaky roof...
We left the restaurant and I noticed that there was water coming in on the front airbag column this was supposed to be fixed in 2008 by the dealer, and I'm not sure for how long this has been going on. We take care of our car and only have around 37,000 miles on it since 2007.
I was driving around 45 MPH and the steering on it stopped working, I mean I could not turn the thing ½” either way...there were cars going around me since it conveniently happened while driving slightly down hill and around a curve.
After reading online this seems to be a huge problem and I wonder how many people have to get in a crash or die before GM will release a recall.
I will never purchase another GM vehicle again. I'm going to drop this $33,000 piece of crap at the dealer this weekend and hope I don't get screwed.
I will not let my wife drive it period...and I hope we don't die because of this problem. The only thing that helps me sleep a bit easier is the fact that I did not pay the extra $10,000 for the Acadia when the people who bought that will have the same problems for a greater cost.
Thank you for taking the time to post your concerns. Can you please email me directly with your VIN, current mileage, and the name of your dealer? I would like to look into this further.
Christina
GM Customer Service
SocialMedia@GM.com
I'm sorry to read about the situation with your Outlook while you were out on the road, and that you have decided to trade it in this upcoming Saturday. I hope that any hunt for a replacement vehicle goes smoothly, and if we can answer any questions we're happy to assist. Email us at socialmedia@gm.com
Best,
Sarah
GM Customer Service
Odd that their saying the front sunroof drains onto the floor and seat but this water problem is completely different (therefore not covered) and travels from the rear moonroof goes past the front sunroof, past the seat, past the floors, all the way to the engine compartment.
Might want to try customer customer service for the heck of it - I think some have had some help.
Keywords: Manufacturers often stonewall the consumer over secret warranties knowing that many consumers will give up in utter frustration and go away mad. Don't.
Tell the local media about your secret warranty problem. Many consumers get reimbursed because a local Action Line, newspaper or television station starts to take an interest in a secret warranty. After all, if a manufacturer is trying to keep a secret warranty secret, the last thing the company wants is publicity on the secret warranty. A particularly good strategy is to announce the formation of a group to expose the particular secret warranty affecting your car. Even if the group is small as you and your neighbor, a group is powerful and attracts more attention than an individual.
Small Claims Court
Manufacturers often stonewall the consumer over secret warranties knowing that many consumers will give up in utter frustration and go away mad. Don't. Take the documentation on the secret warranty and your repair efforts to small claims court. At this point, it's the manufacturer who often gives up knowing that the legal rights are on the consumer's side. The manufacturer relies on its own complaint handling mechanism to wear down consumers. once you show you won't be beat by the manufacturer's complaint handling mechanism, you should succeed. The manufacturer will finally recognize its responsibility for the defect in your car and reimburse you.
Conclusion
The squeaky wheel gets the grease. The consumers who complain the loudest get reimbursed under secret warranties. The good customer who goes away quietly gets ripped off. Until auto companies wake up and realize that consumer protection is good business, consumers have to be aggressive or they will wind up paying for an auto company's mistake. Since billions of dollars in repairs are covered by secret warranties, the total benefit to consumers in exercising their rights is enormous.
Secret warranties are a multi-billion consumer abuse. Every auto company makes mistakes in building cars. Whether they are design defects that affect every car or whether they are manufacturing defects which affect only some cars, they must be repaired. The only question is who pays for the manufacturers' mistakes, the manufacturer or the consumer. Although the auto manufacturer often establishes a secret warranty to pay for the repair, all too often it is the consumer who pays for the manufacturer's mistake because the consumer never finds out about the secret warranty. That's wrong and the Center for Auto Safety wants to change it.
In a 1987 report the Center for Auto Safety (CAS) created national headlines by identifying 10 exemplary secret warranties covering 30 million vehicles and $3 billion in repair costs. Yet this is but the tip of the iceberg for we estimate that at any one time over 500 secret warranties exist for all auto companies. According to a Toyota whistleblower who provided a complete list in May 1988, Toyota alone had 41 secret warranties at that time.
By exposing secret warranties, CAS forces manufacturers to pay for their mistakes and creates a strong incentive for them to build better cars in the future. once secret warranties are disclosed, consumers will save hundreds, if not thousands, in repair bills on their personal cars. Spurred on by CAS exposes, state legislatures are moving to pass secret warranty disclosure laws that will protect consumers. Until then, consumers must rely on the strategies suggested in our book, Little Secrets of the Auto Industry, to discover and use secret warranties to pay for repairs in their vehicles.
What is a secret warranty?
Auto companies hate the term secret warranties. They call them policy adjustments, good will programs, service campaigns or extended warranties . But whatever they are called, they are a longstanding industry practice. When a car company has a major defect that occurs after its written warranty expires, it establishes an adjustment policy to pay for repairs rather than deal with many thousands, if not millions, of complaints on a case by case basis. But the auto company communicates the policy only to regional offices and not even always to its dealers. The auto manufacturers never notify the consumer; so only the consumer who complains loudly enough gets covered by the secret warranty. Other consumers end up bearing the costs of the manufacturer's mistakes.
Examples of Secret Warranties
CAS has documented case after case of secret warranties since our founding in 1970. one of the first and most famous was Ford's J-67 Limited Service Program which covered rust on 12 million 1969-72 cars and trucks. In this case a bulletin which went out only to Ford regional offices stated, "This is a limited service program without dealership notification and should be administered on an individual complaint basis." Under this program, Ford would pay up to 100% to repair rust and paint damage on its vehicles even if it cost over a $1000.
CAS has uncovered secret warranties on all auto companies with little differences between them. A 1972 Mazda secret warranty bulletin doubled the coverage for rotary engine damage but cautioned, "Since this is a temporary program which may be terminated at [any] time, owners are not to be informed of the extended coverage." Honda had secret warranties on head gaskets and rusting fenders in the mid-1970's; Chrysler had rusting fenders on Volares and Aspens in the late 1970's; GM had the transmission secret warranty caused by a ban on sperm whale oil as a lubricant; Peugeot and Subaru both covered defective head gaskets; and VW covered valve stem seals.
Secret warranties soared after 1980 when the federal government dropped all efforts to ban them. GM had a 5 year/50,000 mile secret warranty covering repair of defective rack and pinion power steering systems on all 16 million of its 1981-88 front wheel drive cars. Toyota covered pulsating brakes on its 1983-86 Camry in a $100 million secret warranty. Ford never told owners of its 1985-92 F-series pickups that America's most popular truck had peeling paint because Ford skipped the primer layer. According to Nissan documents provided to CAS by a whistleblower in 1990, Nissan had at one time up to 48 secret warranties covering various cars and trucks.
There is no doubt that auto manufacturers presently have many other secret warranties. However, assessing how widespread secret warranty programs are is difficult because these programs, by definition, are not intended for public disclosure. Since CAS began exposing secret warranties more widely in the 1980's, the auto makers having gotten better at keeping them secret. Even CAS can no longer get lists of secret warranties to disclose. one Honda insider to
Congratulations on getting yours covered.
And thanks to Polar Chev, they covered the costs. I would go back to them in a heartbeat for any repairs that I have to pay for. What a good crew!
Many dry and happy miles!
Sarah
GM Customer Service
My last message to you was when everything seemed to be fixed - I'm sorry that this wasn't the case! I just wanted to offer again to look into this with you through Customer Service as you've been in so many times on this same concern. Please email us at socialmedia@gm.com with the following information: your name/Edmunds username, phone and address, the last 8 of your VIN and current mileage, and the name of your preferred dealership.
Regards,
Sarah
GM Customer Service
They too also dropped the headliner a few times and had a tech sit in there and wait for the water to start dripping.
against the rules on this site to mention the law firm however it is on the Saturn-Gm Outlook and Arcadia lemons page on Facebook. The law firm gave me permission to mention this firm that is located in San Francisco. I recently contacted them and gave them a wealth of information but unfortunately I don't live in California and the laws don't apply to me. However, they said by all the information on our car I provided them we definitively had a case if we lived in CA. I hope those in California can receive some justice and help with GM. The law in CA is not only Lemon Law but breach of warranty of mercantability. This only applies to certain States. It allows a vehicle owner a repurchase if the vehicle has so many problems that it does not meet the legal standard for ordinary goods of this type.If you go to the Facebook page and scroll down there is a story of a man that lives in California that through the Better Business Bureau and due to the laws that apply GM bought his 2007 Saturn Outlook back, no money out of pocket as he was represented by the BBB. Good luck to those that this law applies to, I hope it's helpful information in this unfortunate, injustice problem we are all facing.
We're sorry to see that you have encountered a leak multiple times in your Outlook. If we can get a Service Request going for you in our department, after which we would begin to work with your dealership towards hopefully getting this resolved, please send the following information to us at socialmedia@gm.com: your name/Edmunds username, phone and address, the last 8 of your VIN and current mileage, and the name of your preferred dealership.
Regards,
Sarah
GM Customer Service
Secret Warranty information:
Car Warranties, Recalls and Lemon Laws
Sometimes a manufacturer makes a design or production mistake on a motor vehicle. A service bulletin notifies the dealer of the problem and how to resolve it. Because these free repairs are not publicized, they are called "secret warranties." The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration maintains a database of service bulletins filed by manufacturers.
If you have a problem with a vehicle that is a safety hazard, check whether the manufacturer has recalled your vehicle. Click on Recalls or call NHTSA at 1-800-424-9393.Hazards that aren't listed should be reported to your dealer, the manufacturer of the vehicle, and NHTSA. If a safety-related defect exists, the maker must fix it at no cost to you-even if your warranty has expired.
If you have a vehicle with a unique problem that just never seems to get fixed, you may have a lemon. Some states have laws concerning lemons that require a refund or replacement if a problem is not fixed within a reasonable number of tries or if you haven't been able to use your vehicle for a certain number of days. Contact your local consumer protection office to learn whether you have such protections and what steps you must take to solve your problem. If you believe your car is a lemon:
Give the dealer a list of the problems every time you bring it in for repairs.
Get and keep copies of the repair orders listing the problems, the work done, and the dates the car was in the shop.
Contact the manufacturer, as well as the dealer, to report the problem. Check your owner's manual or the directory for the auto manufacturers.
Help other consumers avoid purchasing your lemon by registering it at safetyforum.com.
The Center for Auto Safety gathers information and complaints concerning safety defects, recalls, service bulletins and state lemon laws.
Also, there is a forum on Facebook @ http://www.facebook.com/groups/180757711936865/.
Good luck to you and stay strong!
We're sorry to see that you have had to revisit the dealership so many times on this leaking concern. Have you opened a case through Customer Assistance at this point? If we can do so for you, please send the following information to us at socialmedia@gm.com: your name/Edmunds username, phone and address, the last 8 of your VIN and current mileage, and the name of your dealership.
Regards,
Sarah
GM Customer Service
Keywords: Manufacturers often stonewall the consumer over secret warranties knowing that many consumers will give up in utter frustration and go away mad. Don't.
Tell the local media about your secret warranty problem. Many consumers get reimbursed because a local Action Line, newspaper or television station starts to take an interest in a secret warranty. After all, if a manufacturer is trying to keep a secret warranty secret, the last thing the company wants is publicity on the secret warranty. A particularly good strategy is to announce the formation of a group to expose the particular secret warranty affecting your car. Even if the group is small as you and your neighbor, a group is powerful and attracts more attention than an individual.
Small Claims Court
Manufacturers often stonewall the consumer over secret warranties knowing that many consumers will give up in utter frustration and go away mad. Don't. Take the documentation on the secret warranty and your repair efforts to small claims court. At this point, it's the manufacturer who often gives up knowing that the legal rights are on the consumer's side. The manufacturer relies on its own complaint handling mechanism to wear down consumers. once you show you won't be beat by the manufacturer's complaint handling mechanism, you should succeed. The manufacturer will finally recognize its responsibility for the defect in your car and reimburse you.
Conclusion
The squeaky wheel gets the grease. The consumers who complain the loudest get reimbursed under secret warranties. The good customer who goes away quietly gets ripped off. Until auto companies wake up and realize that consumer protection is good business, consumers have to be aggressive or they will wind up paying for an auto company's mistake. Since billions of dollars in repairs are covered by secret warranties, the total benefit to consumers in exercising their rights is enormous.
Secret warranties are a multi-billion consumer abuse. Every auto company makes mistakes in building cars. Whether they are design defects that affect every car or whether they are manufacturing defects which affect only some cars, they must be repaired. The only question is who pays for the manufacturers' mistakes, the manufacturer or the consumer. Although the auto manufacturer often establishes a secret warranty to pay for the repair, all too often it is the consumer who pays for the manufacturer's mistake because the consumer never finds out about the secret warranty. That's wrong and the Center for Auto Safety wants to change it.
In a 1987 report the Center for Auto Safety (CAS) created national headlines by identifying 10 exemplary secret warranties covering 30 million vehicles and $3 billion in repair costs. Yet this is but the tip of the iceberg for we estimate that at any one time over 500 secret warranties exist for all auto companies. According to a Toyota whistleblower who provided a complete list in May 1988, Toyota alone had 41 secret warranties at that time.
By exposing secret warranties, CAS forces manufacturers to pay for their mistakes and creates a strong incentive for them to build better cars in the future. once secret warranties are disclosed, consumers will save hundreds, if not thousands, in repair bills on their personal cars. Spurred on by CAS exposes, state legislatures are moving to pass secret warranty disclosure laws that will protect consumers. Until then, consumers must rely on the strategies suggested in our book, Little Secrets of the Auto Industry, to discover and use secret warranties to pay for repairs in their vehicles.
What is a secret warranty?
Auto companies hate the term secret warranties. They call them policy adjustments, good will programs, service campaigns or extended warranties . But whatever they are called, they are a longstanding industry practice. When a car company has a major defect that occurs after its written warranty expires, it establishes an adjustment policy to pay for repairs rather than deal with many thousands, if not millions, of complaints on a case by case basis. But the auto company communicates the policy only to regional offices and not even always to its dealers. The auto manufacturers never notify the consumer; so only the consumer who complains loudly enough gets covered by the secret warranty. Other consumers end up bearing the costs of the manufacturer's mistakes.
Examples of Secret Warranties
CAS has documented case after case of secret warranties since our founding in 1970. one of the first and most famous was Ford's J-67 Limited Service Program which covered rust on 12 million 1969-72 cars and trucks. In this case a bulletin which went out only to Ford regional offices stated, "This is a limited service program without dealership notification and should be administered on an individual complaint basis." Under this program, Ford would pay up to 100% to repair rust and paint damage on its vehicles even if it cost over a $1000.
CAS has uncovered secret warranties on all auto companies with little differences between them. A 1972 Mazda secret warranty bulletin doubled the coverage for rotary engine damage but cautioned, "Since this is a temporary program which may be terminated at [any] time, owners are not to be informed of the extended coverage." Honda had secret warranties on head gaskets and rusting fenders in the mid-1970's; Chrysler had rusting fenders on Volares and Aspens in the late 1970's; GM had the transmission secret warranty caused by a ban on sperm whale oil as a lubricant; Peugeot and Subaru both covered defective head gaskets; and VW covered valve stem seals.
Secret warranties soared after 1980 when the federal government dropped all efforts to ban them. GM had a 5 year/50,000 mile secret warranty covering repair of defective rack and pinion power steering systems on all 16 million of its 1981-88 front wheel drive cars. Toyota covered pulsating brakes on its 1983-86 Camry in a $100 million secret warranty. Ford never told owners of its 1985-92 F-series pickups that America's most popular truck had peeling paint because Ford skipped the primer layer. According to Nissan documents provided to CAS by a whistleblower in 1990, Nissan had at one time up to 48 secret warranties covering various cars and trucks.
There is no doubt that auto manufactur
#401 Re: Leaky Sunroof - 07 Saturn Outlook [thegumbogirl] by nancy1960 Jun 16, 2012 (11:32 am)
I think this is such an injustice to what is happening to so many owners of Saturn Outlook, Buick Enclave and GMC Arcadia. With the help of all those affected by these water leaks with no fix in sight regardless of repairs we need to have a large voice against GM. We can only exchange certain info on this site (?) and I don't want to violate the rules. I would would like to contact 20/20 Investig...
View/reply at: Re: Leaky Sunroof - 07 Saturn Outlook [thegumbogirl]
Thank you for taking the time to post your concerns. Can you please email me directly with your VIN, current mileage, and involved dealer? I apologize for your frustrations. Have you spoke with Customer Assistance? I look forward to hearing from you.
Christina
GM Customer Service
Call GM!! Good luck to you and stay strong!! Research as much as you can before talking to GM and don't let them tell you that you have to keep those drains clean.
If you live in California, Connecticut, Maryland, Virginia or Wisconsin you have added protection.
States with Secret Warranty protection:
In order to protect consumers from undisclosed defects, five states (California, Connecticut, Maryland, Virginia, and Wisconsin) have enacted secret warranty laws and other states are considering secret warranty legislation.
Uncovering Secret Warranties:
Secret warranties are a multi-billion consumer abuse. Every auto company makes mistakes in building cars. Whether they are design defects that affect every car or whether they are manufacturing defects which affect only some cars, they must be repaired. The only question is who pays for the manufacturers' mistakes, the manufacturer or the consumer. Although the auto manufacturer often establishes a secret warranty to pay for the repair, all too often it is the consumer who pays for the manufacturer's mistake because the consumer never finds out about the secret warranty. That's wrong and the Center for Auto Safety wants to change it.
In a 1987 report the Center for Auto Safety (CAS) created national headlines by identifying 10 exemplary secret warranties covering 30 million vehicles and $3 billion in repair costs. Yet this is but the tip of the iceberg for we estimate that at any one time over 500 secret warranties exist for all auto companies. According to a Toyota whistleblower who provided a complete list in May 1988, Toyota alone had 41 secret warranties at that time.
By exposing secret warranties, CAS forces manufacturers to pay for their mistakes and creates a strong incentive for them to build better cars in the future. once secret warranties are disclosed, consumers will save hundreds, if not thousands, in repair bills on their personal cars. Spurred on by CAS exposes, state legislatures are moving to pass secret warranty disclosure laws that will protect consumers. Until then, consumers must rely on the strategies suggested in our book, Little Secrets of the Auto Industry, to discover and use secret warranties to pay for repairs in their vehicles.
What is a secret warranty?
Auto companies hate the term secret warranties. They call them policy adjustments, good will programs, service campaigns or extended warranties . But whatever they are called, they are a longstanding industry practice. When a car company has a major defect that occurs after its written warranty expires, it establishes an adjustment policy to pay for repairs rather than deal with many thousands, if not millions, of complaints on a case by case basis. But the auto company communicates the policy only to regional offices and not even always to its dealers. The auto manufacturers never notify the consumer; so only the consumer who complains loudly enough gets covered by the secret warranty. Other consumers end up bearing the costs of the manufacturer's mistakes.
Examples of Secret Warranties
CAS has documented case after case of secret warranties since our founding in 1970. one of the first and most famous was Ford's J-67 Limited Service Program which covered rust on 12 million 1969-72 cars and trucks. In this case a bulletin which went out only to Ford regional offices stated, "This is a limited service program without dealership notification and should be administered on an individual complaint basis." Under this program, Ford would pay up to 100% to repair rust and paint damage on its vehicles even if it cost over a $1000.
CAS has uncovered secret warranties on all auto companies with little differences between them. A 1972 Mazda secret warranty bulletin doubled the coverage for rotary engine damage but cautioned, "Since this is a temporary program which may be terminated at [any] time, owners are not to be informed of the extended coverage." Honda had secret warranties on head gaskets and rusting fenders in the mid-1970's; Chrysler had rusting fenders on Volares and Aspens in the late 1970's; GM had the transmission secret warranty caused by a ban on sperm whale oil as a lubricant; Peugeot and Subaru both covered defective head gaskets; and VW covered valve stem seals.
Secret warranties soared after 1980 when the federal government dropped all efforts to ban them. GM had a 5 year/50,000 mile secret warranty covering repair of defective rack and pinion power steering systems on all 16 million of its 1981-88 front wheel drive cars. Toyota covered pulsating brakes on its 1983-86 Camry in a $100 million secret warranty. Ford never told owners of its 1985-92 F-series pickups that America's most popular truck had peeling paint because Ford skipped the primer layer. According to Nissan documents provided to CAS by a whistleblower in 1990, Nissan had at one time up to 48 secret warranties covering various cars and trucks.
There is no doubt that auto manufacturers presently have many other secret warranties. However, assessing how widespread secret warranty programs are is difficult because these programs, by definition, are not intended for public disclosure. Since CAS began exposing secret warranties more widely in the 1980's, the auto makers having gotten better at keeping them secret. Even CAS can no longer get lists of secret warranties to disclose. one Honda insider told CAS that Honda has only one secret warranty book for each of its regions. The book is chained to a desk. Every page has the region's number superimposed on it so that any photo of a book page would show the region from which it came.
But it is known that the regulatory climate has been very favorable to the automakers since 1980. Furthermore, secret warranties are viewed by the automakers as an effective tool to maintain good customer relations. Loyal customers and customers that complain loudly and persistently are rewarded. Other consumers get saddled with repair costs caused by the manufacturers' mistakes.
No Uniform Law Requires Secret Warranty Disclosure
No federal law requires auto companies to disclose secret warranties. In the late 1970's, the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) sought to litigate individual secret warranties against each auto company beginning with piston scuffing and cracked blocks in 1976-78 Fords. The FTC settled its case by requiring Ford to notify and directly compensate owners according to the secret warranty policy and to notify all future
Sarah, GM Customer Service
I noticed after extensive repairs I continued to have electrical issues with interior lights, temp gauge and radio not going off. Eventually, GM offers a warranty that after much research does not cover water intrusions.
It's interesting that during the summer months this forum slows down with posts regarding water leaks. We bought our car in June 11' and by Jan 12' it was a lemon and not a safe vehicle.
You are now aware of the design flaws of GM, please, report your issues with your car to National Highway Traffic Safety admin. on line. This is criminal that GM knows of these flaws and hundreds of consumers lives have been devastated by these known , extensive problems.
Best of luck to you!!
I am now lookinig at a major repair bill to replace the fusebox and correct the water leak. Why hasn't a recall for this problem been issued?
This is a serious health (mold) and safety (electrical malfunctions) issue.
An unhappy, long time GM customer
As you're using kilometers as your unit of measure, I'm supposing that you're writing from Canada? If you had wanted to connect with Customer Assistance, GM of Canada can be reached at 800-263-3777 (Hours: M-F 7:30am - 11:30pm, Sat 7:30am - 6:00 EST).
All the best,
Sarah
GM Customer Service