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Comments
Why would a person who earns 200 K a year worry about fuel economy as much as a person earning 100 K a year (if money spent towards fuel is the main consideration)?
Why would a person who wants regular 3rd row seating for adults consider a Toyota Highlander?
Why would a person who likes the nice comfy ride of a mini van, go for a vehicle that is more tuned towards sportiness?
Also, in some posts people are talking about price to own after a few years and seem to be saying that Toyota will turn out much better than a Mazda. Looking at available data, the difference is much lesser than what people would imagine.
See ya...
Somewhere I recall reading about Highlander's sales drop in June: Discontinuing of 4-cylender models, while gas prices are hovering over $4+ ! If you notice on prices paid discussion, even in Car's sale prices, the difference between V4 (or I4 you may want to call it) and V6 models has narrowed significantly. ie., what used to be V6 premium is fast evaporating under prevailing $4+ gas prices. No wonder this broader phenomenon affects SUV/CUV purchase decisions too. I am /making an educted guess/ at this point, but has anybody got sales figures where folks who once were in market for V4 Highlander cross shopped for RAV4 ? Also, has V4 RAV4 made more sales compared to V6 ?
Now, what /real/ choice do people have that want 4-cylender alternative to CX-9? Try RAV4 mebbe, seriously !
Like somebody said earlier, its your choice what vehicle you want to buy, but make a sensible one at that.
If one is looking for space, X5 is not an option.
For a fuel efficient / gasoline-less vehicle, I am waiting for a plug-in electric vehicle.
I hope that's for the 3rd row! Right?
Nonetheless, that still sounds like a big turnoff to me too. Makes it look like that position, albeit it's probably a not often used position for most, was an afterthought. Also, how is it legal to trust owners to install something so important to personal safety? Did Honda find a loophole in the annals of safety laws or something?
They do sell the Pilot as an 8 passenger SUV so I would expect nothing less than 8 FACTORY INSTALLED 3-point safetly belts. Do any other mfrs do this too? I never noticed it before.
The CX-9 is not on a stretched Ford Edge platform. The Ford Edge is on Mazda's platform. Any educated automotive person know that the platform does not make the vehicle what it is, but rather what is placed on it.
While CR had red dots for every catagorie on the CX-9 except for the audio system controls, it appears that CR based their reliability on that alone. Makes no sense. Besides, Toyota is not CR's favorite anymore with constant issues in quality and reliability as of late. We all know CR is not perfect, and you are nieve if you think they are.
The CX-9 is not a "one trick pony". It happens to do everything better then the Highlander, except straight line acceleration and a slim FE average.
To me, Toyota's are highly over rated. Yes, they are good mechanically, however, they have some of the cheapest materials I have ever seen on the interior. Styling makes me want to hang my self. And the drive....it the most slushy, non responsive vehicles on the market. While they get good remarks for dependability (which has taken a HUGE hit lately) they consistently rate near the bottom in comparison tests.
I hope that's for the 3rd row! Right?
If I remember correctly, both the second and third row in the Pilot use a ceiling-mounted seatbelt.
It's actually fairly common. Both the Nissan Murano (a two-row CUV) and the Mazda CX-9 use roof-mounted belts for the center position in the second row.
As I mentioned, the Highlander has a seat-mounted center belt for the second row.
Keep in mind: I'm sure the ceiling-mounted belt is just as safe as a seat-mounted belt. and it's far better than just a lap belt only that used to be common in center seating position.
Let me illuminate you on why the Highlander might sell only $1k below invoice:
MSRP Highlander Limited AWD: $34,350
Invoice Price: $30,571
Difference: $3779
MSRP CX-9 GT AWD: $34,655
Invoice Price: $32,041
Difference: $2614
Basically, the Highlander has a much lower invoice price than the CX-9. That's why dealers would likely not sell for thousands below invoice, since invoice is already low!
So you're making fun of the CX-9 by saying you can get it $3000 below invoice, which would be $29,041. Yet you're somewhat proud to say that you can get the Highlander $1000 below invoice, which would be $29,571...IT'S THE SAME PRICE AS THE CX-9!
You obviously have a bias against the Mazda, that's fine, but come on, at least do a bit of research before spouting off.
Aviboy - time to finish your education, fast! Recession coming ..
"So let me explain more gently: genetically speaking, the CX-9 is actually a closer relation to the Ford Edge" NYTIMES: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/08/automobiles/autoreviews/08AUTO.html
"It looks like a longer version of the CX-7 but is based on the stretched platform of the Ford Edge" -- consum' 'rports
Good choice award from consum' 'rports, Highlander TOPS all competitors, CX-9 lower mid-pack 4th.
You like CX-9, please go ahead put your money in one, but first-drive alone is not what you should plunk your money over.
No need to explain pricing - be your own judge on what people paid experiences rigbht here on TownHall for all three models. And we are not even pricing low-maintenance and resale values into the equation.
// MSAM //
Highlander beat every other SUV/CUV either loaded/unloaded in every category., and it also brakes/stops better! Mebbe to some v4 still a viable option., obviously, until last model year V4 sold in decent volume, its not like every AMERICAN grew larger and grew their families in just one year to make V4 a history !! Some folks need more volume doesn't necessarily haul 7 folks all at the same time!
Let the better, well-rounded vehicle take the category, and sales., just not a one-trickeroo
To show you how well the CX-9 is doing, the GMC Acadia is down 40% in sales as compared to last year. Even the Pilot is down 20%.
So the CX-9 is not really the one-trick pony you think it is, sales remain steady as other CUVs are tanking. That kinda blows your argument, doesn't it?
And as for myself, I'm just a guy that did a lot of research before buying the CX-9. The Highlander would have been our 2nd choice, but we thought the CX-9 drove more like a car, which is what we wanted.
I've been in the back seat of the CX-9 a few times and never noticed a ceiling mounted shoulder belt. That's not to say it isn't there. I just didn't pay attention to it I guess. Do you just pull it down from the headliner or what?
"Highlander beat every other SUV/CUV either loaded/unloaded in every category"
I am not sure that this statement is completely true. It just depends on where you look.
"Install" was the wrong word. You don't have to "install" the actual seatbelt hardware. You do have to connect the belt to the buckle on the seat before it's usable.
Either you leave it connected all the time, or you could leave it stowed on the ceiling so it's out of the way. If you do the latter, someone will need to connect it whenever the center position is used.
If Highlander had V4 engine, it woulda reduced the weight compared to current V6 model, hence increased weight wouldn't be as much as 400 pounds between model years., yet it will still be higher than previous year model though, agree. But, for whatever's worth 'yota folks figured V4 Highlander isn't worth spending their design time, and cut that configuration out, and left that segment to RAV4 play.
What general public fully understand is Highlander's real-world fuel economy/MPG under many conditions TOPs "Monroney" sticker posted numbers (lets say easy, EPA MPG figures). Where as other CUVs/SUVs struggle hard to reach their-own already low MPG-figures under /ideal/ conditions. Its clear and evident from /real/ people experiences and postings right here, that Highlander gives very good MPG., where as that is not the case with other CUVs.
Surprising thing is - Pilot with that wonderful Cylender Deactivation thingie (I used to get a kick when GM used to refer it as DoD, displacement on demand), doesn't match Highlander's numbers close enough. Thats so un-typical of Honda, which usually does fairly competent with V4 engines performance and their MPG. Highlander one-upped Pilot in MPG category, and Toyota in general one-upped Honda in V6 performance/MPG. Mebbe next round goes to Honda., lets wait..
Somebody said, some of Highlander's interior materials visually are not upto Toyota level, I see in some areas they could possibly increase material quality. But, they wouldn't want to make it too luxurious, if they would, what is the incentive to buy them Lexus models? It may be somewhat well-thought idear. But, I see those materials are durable though, hence quality wise, surmise it won't be an issue. Visually, some of the trim-pieces may not be as much appealing, got a point.
A neighbor complains about her CX-9's visibility, and rather-stiff driving. Anybody else felt the same way?
Yes, same platform, CD3, which Ford borrowed from Mazda (GG/GY platform). I don't need an education from you. Thanks for the offer.
The overall sales figures do not speak for themselves, Toyota is the worlds largest automaker. Mazda is 4th in Japan. I have owned a Toyota before, and I believe they are over rated. Until they build a product that is actually fun to drive (IMO), I will not step foot in any of their show rooms.
Actually the major complaint I would have is the act of getting into the CX-9: the roof line is low since the windshield is curved at such a low angle, and the first few times you tend to bang yourself on the head. Then you get used to it.
The 20" wheels on the CX-9 will make it feel like a sports sedan, which means you feels the bumps more. We preferred that over the 18" wheels, which do isolate you better from the bumps, but we didn't feel as connected to the road. People that have never driven sports sedan should not blindly buy the GT with its 20" rims, it won't have the cushy ride of a floaty Buick, that's for sure. Of all the CUVs I tested, the Highlander has the most terrible road feel (might be the electric steering, might be the somewhat floaty ride), but that's a general Toyota thing, I guess, since its customer base is likely older than Mazda.
My wife, who is short, has no issues with visibility. Personally, I think that all these CUVs suck with visibility, but you do get used to it. I've always driven sedans, so even a wagon is terrible for me.
You mean to say Mazda and Ford interchange platforms too much, to the extent of using same platform on many of their multiple models. Is that a good thing? Also, you know how old is the CD3 platform (hint: 7+ years running)? Just check Wiki - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_CD3_platform . LOL, this platform soon to be replaced by Ford Contour (US)/Mondeo (EU) platform? Ya'll know how well Ford Contour did in US?
I do admire hard-love some of you guys have for your SUV/CUV (whatever make it may be) you own, or in market for.
I would like to hear experiences from real-world towing experiences of your respective SUVs/CUVs .. my friend in GA trying to figure if a Highlander can do a job of decently tow his 4700 pound boat. Read an excellent review about Highlander on Trailer Boats - http://www.trailerboats.com/output.cfm?id=1675315 Going the Highlander route, his MPG during non-towing times will be excellent compared to rails-based SUVs.
But, hez looking for more real-world experiences. Much appreciate it, y'all
Nice little mix and match of facts there. The Contour platform is dead and will not replace anything. Also, I can tell that you never had the privilege of driving a Contour SHO or you'd bite your tongue.
Platform sharing within or between brands is highly effective as used by almost every automotive manufacturer and I'm certain you are not qualified to discuss the pros and cons.
The love is probably because it works really well. Have you seen a owner love their vehicle when they were disappointed with it after their purchase? Looks like you are in love with the Highlander. Why don't you get one? or do you already own one?
Anyway, I don't own any of these. I am just in the market for one of these. I will probably consider a Toyota Highlander if it has 3rd row split seats.
Though I feel that Toyota is certainly overrated for their reliability. I owned a Mazda about 5 years back and loved its reliability. Drove it until 160K miles and had very few repairs and none of them costly. I currently own a Toyota Avalon and it currently has 108K miles and have run into quite a few problems and the problems started at about 60K. Every year I have been repairing something or the other. Never was the case with my ex-Mazda. So, I should say I am disappointed.
You know, it's amazing how some people will just focus on one car that they love and basically dismiss everything else as crap. Love is blind, I guess. The CX-9 has been quite a target lately, since it's won so many awards. One guy in another Edmunds forum clearly loved the Acadia and found every single living fault with the CX-9 when the awards started coming out, even though he was aware the Acadia has had many, many issues. There's no convincing people like that.
If you don't need much room behind the 3rd row, I would definitely suggest the Highlander, and I'd stick with the Sport Edition so that you don't get that awful fake wood. You can't fit a stroller behind the 3rd row in the Highlander, so if you have kids and are planning to haul people occasionally, you'll have to be creative with storage. You might also want to try out the Hyundai Veracruz, I was impressed with the overall quality. A little floaty ride, but comfortable. Depends what you like in a car. We opted for the CX-9 because of the additional room behind the 3rd row, and the sporty tuning.
If your goal is the most room behind the 3rd row, you should look at the '09 Pilot which has more than the CX-9. It has more seating capacity and legroom too...
I agree that some people are very defensive about their particular cars and sometimes feel the need to "dis" the competitors as a way of somehow elevating their preferred car. I wish people could just have a straight-forward discourse on the pros/cons. I will almost certainly end up with one of the these three cars soon but whichever one I get will be a compromise of my requirements and the fact that I pick one and own it won't suddenly make me blind to those limitations or a "cheerleader" for the car / critic of the others. They all seem like great vehicles and its frustrating no one got it 100 percent right for me, but oh well. Which is best will still come down to each individuals priorities. My problem is I don't have any one priority that outweighs the others...
At the end of the day I have one thing that is still holding me back on each of these vehicles, more than the other little things for each:
1) Highlander: lack of a split 3rd row. Really dumb.
2) Pilot: Lack of responsive acceleration or braking.
3) CX-9: Sub-par electronics / radio / tech integration.
Each of these things is really important to me. Some of you may not care that much about the car tech and if so I would recommend the CX-9. Some of you don't care about the third row in which case the Highlander is a great choice unless you are picky about the "feel" of the drive, in which seriously consider the CX-9. Some of you may not care about responsive acceleration in which case the Pilot is a compelling choice unless you don't like the retro-SUV look or are a bargain hunter (in which case, again, the CX-9 is a great choice right now). Some of you want the comfort of a top tier rated brand (not just for reliability but for breath of after market options, # of dealers, etc.) in which case if you are hung up on that save yourself the stress and skip the Mazda. The Mazda fans can counter all they want but if someone doesn't feel good about it or trusts CR or whatever, let them; no need to try and talk them out of their perception...
The Highlander also turned me off at first sight of the 3rd bench. I never even test-drove it. I waited for the Pilot until I saw the 1st photo release from Honda. I went to Mazda dealer the next day.
To each his/her own. Buying a vehicle is such a complex formula. Some of us are owners of those vehicles already. Let us focus on providing experience, knowledge and information to help those who plan to buy.
I own Honda stocks. I should be an advocate for Pilot, really..... not CX9.
In any event, the only reason I abbreviated my reply was I had already gone into extensive detail on it about 85 posts ago in this thread. For me there is a general lack of sophistication to the user-controllable electronics package of the CX-9 compared to the competition. I am not saying it doesn’t work or isn’t reliable or that the stereo is under-powered, etc. I have no issue with those things.
I am saying I value a complete “tech” experience – a display that tells me the temp, inside and out, that shows me the tire pressure of my individual tires, that shows me statistics about my trips or overall car performance, that shows me extensive data about what I am listening to, whether it be the radio, satellite, CD or iPod, that allows me full control of my iPod (since for MILLIONS of people that is the sole source of their music listening and the CD is now irrelevant), etc. I want to be able to change car configurations from this display, I want it to be easy to glance at and read. And I want it all factory integrated with no need for dealers or after market people to mess with the wiring, etc. I think in a few years not having all this integration will be like not having power windows or door locks. It’s just slightly ahead of the curve to expect it in a vehicle now as standard but I choose to have that expectation and much of the competition is meeting it. I think the Mazda is a great car but for those that prioritize this user tech it is a real weakness in the overall package.
a) Mazda CX9 (gripes - would prefer a little less longer vehicle, improved electronics including trip computer)
b) Honda Pilot (gripes - acceleration and braking, center console layout)
c) Toyota Highlander (gripes - no split third row, higher price for the options I am interested in)
d) Acura MDX (gripes - not sure about reliability, overall costly including premium grade fuel)
I should say that I am waiting for what the 2009 models of Mazda CX9 and Toyota Highlander have to offer to make up my mind on one. Maybe I will wait until the 2010 models!! Too confusing because a lot of vehicles offer a lot of good things.
1) First of all Acura MDX is out of this league since it is a Luxury SUV.
2) If you are in to buying luxury SUV, you need to look at different list - RX 350, FX etc
3) You statement that you are not sure about Acura reliability- you need to do more research before deciding to buy - Acura/MDX is one of the most reliable SUV out there with RX 350
4) If one should buy a 40K+ performance SUV, they should be able to afford premium fuel.
One observation - Yota folks may not be the first folks to jump at adding new configurations/options real-fast, but they sure are the best in fixing current-set of any small issues, along the way. If there are any problems left by first year model run, consider all (if not most) of 'em fixed in 2009 year update, but gotta wait till 4th quarter @ current rate of SUV/CUV sales everywhere. Wish Highlander gets mild-increase in steering resistance for 2009.
Dunno what to say about 2009 Pilot yet, haven't driven one yet. But, I do want to figgure if mileage has improved on this model yet !! So far reasonable consumer reviews on edmunds.
Wonder which vehicle going to get good awards in 2009 and beyond ?
Reliability-wise, that is what I would have figured. Yes, I am still doing my research on the Acura MDX. Up until the 2006 model, I am seeing a number of consumers report transmission issues and the rear impact rating to be poor. It seems like the major problems have been addressed in 2007, but still if you even look at the consumer reviews on edmunds, people are reporting way more problems than have been reported for these other 3 vehicles that I am considering. Of course, as far as the Pilot goes, we have to wait a bit more.
I am considering the Acura and not many other luxury SUVs because it offers adult 3rd row seating with enough space behind the third row as well.
It is not about whether I willl be able to afford the vehicle and the premium grade fuel. It is about - do I feel comfortable (not from a money standpoint) spending that much initially and on a regular basis.
If you are considering buying an MDX, you should buy NOW, because the current rebates are very attractive. I have negotiated 37,800K for a MDX with Tech and power tail gate which is 7200 below MSRP. There is a rumor that Honda may throw in another 1000 to 1500 rebate by 1st of Aug. If that is the case, we are looking at 8000 below MSRP - a killer deal for an MDX
I purchased a 2007 pilot last year drove it for 12000 miles and sold it last week. While Pilot is good, it performs and looks more like a minivan. I have negotiated RX 350 for 38K, but the model is changing in another 6 months, it does not have 3rd row seat, FWD/AWD is a joke compared to MDX SH drive and you can't operate the Navi while the car in motion. The maintenance cost is also very high.
No company has achieved zero defects. So few will have issues. We can't base our decisions because some had issues. If you read RX 350 forums, (Rx 350 is the most reliable SUV), one of the biggest issue in 2008/2009 RX 350 model is the rattle noise. Most of Toyotas ride like a boat and do not have personality of a sporty ride.
However if you are not comfortable with premium Gas, you need to look at others, but you will be trading of the Performance. IMHO currently MDX has the best balance of price. handling, reliability, style and gas millage currently in the market
If you Mazda dealer had any know how, they would tell you this.
...
New or enhanced for 2009 CX9:
* Trip computer standard on all models
* Bluetooth phone capability added to Sport model
* Sirius satellite radio added to Moonroof, BOSE® Audio Package and Rear Seat Entertainment System Package
* Auto-dimming rearview mirror with Homelink® added to Grand Touring model
* Heated seats and heated outside mirrors added to Sport Power Seat Package
* Trailer tow preparation standard on AWD
...
So it seems that my trip computer complaint has been addressed. The "sub-par electronics" issue might be taken care of with 2009 model.
"2009 Pilot vs 2009 CX9 vs 2009 Highlander" should be a better comparison.
Let us know what is new for 2009 Highlander if anyone knows.
A friend has 2008 model and she says she doesn't like the visibility (blind spots); she has also accidentally knocked her keychain while driving and turned the engine off while driving on the freeway - has happened to her twice now.
Lastly, I don't like the look of it anymore, I much prefer the CX-9.
(Personally, I also have to say that the CX-9 is a huge improvement over my old car - Ford Windstar - in so many ways I can't count them - maybe if I was coming from a high end car I would pick at it more, but for me this has so many advancements that to me even the navigation system seems amazing
If money is less of an issue, buy CX9 or Highlander with SmartKey access.
There is no key to knock of while driving....
The SmaryKey is such a convenient feature. Once you have it, you will understand.
SmartKey is not available on Pilot. (Most Acuras don't have it except for RL).
Unfortunately, SmaryKey is always part of an expensive package. :mad:
I feel your pain. Does the 2006 Pilot have a documented problem with the A/C system? Or is this an isolated case?
If you Mazda dealer had any know how, they would tell you this.
From reading this and other forums as well as talking with my two local dealers, I don't consider Mazda's dealer-installed solution as good or complete as a factory-installed options for several reasons:
1) It does not work with iPod integration option. You can use it to get your aux jack to work but Mazda will tell you it won't work with their iPod integration device, so you will be able to plug the iPod into aux but not control it from the screen or charge it, etc.
2) Based on many postings here and on other Mazda user sites, it sounds like a lot of Mazda dealers are not experienced in adding this switch without side-effects, such as screwing up the bluetooth functionality (fixable but with a lot of hassle). There are numerous posts of Mazda dealers indemnifying themselves before ordering and installing the switch for their customers -- i.e., they refuse to warrant that it will work and will charge the people whether it does or not, so it is at the customer's risk. This is no better than buying an after market product from any third party place. That may be fine for some, for for others like myself it is not worth the hassle or risk.
3) There is another known issue with the Mazda wiring that requires you get an additional 3rd party module to fix the ground wire causes static when charging the iPod at the same time as playing it through the aux.
4) Even with all this, the display options for Sat and Aux data is limited, with truncated song titles, etc.
Again, I am not dissing the CX-9. Great vehicle. And some people may not prioritize this user tech and entertainment control. But for those of us that do, the after-market fixes just aren't as good as what is offered in some of the competition right now. If cost was the issue, they could have made these fatcory options like some others do. It seems like they just opted for a cheaper base radio / electronics package in general (i.e. only one port shared with aux and sat) which requires more complicated / less comprehensive work-arounds.
The '09 Pilot I test drove had a smart key (i.e. keyless/proximity ket entry and start). I assumed it was an option in the GT model I was testing and not a dealer add-on but I didn't ask...
Are you sure? I can't find such reference even at automobile.honda.com.
Also not in their official news release.
http://automobiles.honda.com/pilot/price.aspx?Model=YF4889KNW
BTW, there is no GT model for new Pilot. Did you mean CX-9 GT (Grand Touring) model?
Pilot has Touring model, which is their top of the line. It comes with traditional remote entry only. (according to their website)
Mazda does not spend many words on describing their AWD system. "Active-torque split" is all Mazda says about it. The system can distribute torque from 100%F-0%R to 50%F-50%R.
In addition, people who opt for 20" wheel on CX9 better know that Mazda does not recommend putting tire chains on them (due to rubbing). So, if you live in an area where you need tire chains in winter even with AWD, you better skip the GT model
or swap out the 20" wheels with dealer for less expensive 18" (same style) ones.
When I bought my CX-9 back in February, my bluetooth didn't work, which irritated me to no end. However, the dealer already knew about the issue (something about the install of Sirius radio at the port, which screwed something up, a sort of splitter is required), and fixed it right the first time, and while they were at it installed the switching box I had bought for free (i.e. I was not charged for labor). Now to your point, there are earlier posts about dealers not knowing anything about the switching box, but I believe this is mostly a non-issue by now.
So it all depends on the dealer, I've had nothing but good experiences. Heck, I even called Mazda Corp to send me a Zoom-Zoom sticker, and not only did they send me the sticker, they also sent me a $5 Starbucks gift card!
If the 2009 models get the whole trip computer thingy, I wonder if I could retrofit that into my 2008....
Honda and Toyota owners don't have such issue since they should all be independent AFAIK.
Have anybody compared Navigation systems among these vehicles ? How well they do, how user-friendly these are, and how often company releases map-updates @ reasonable price ?
We have a GARMIN, and are very happy with it, except for the power cable hook-up we oughta do each time we board vehicle (because we take the unit away with us each time we get off)
Thanks