What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

houdini1 · July 2013

My deal was good, but not as good as yours. If it had been, I would have talked her into it. No one could turn that down.

fintail · July 2013

Sounds like you got a good price too - I think back then new MSRP was something around 20K.

A really pristine 123 will still bring 10K today, which is healthy for a slow quirky car that isn't antique yet.

fintail · July 2013

It would be a 4-speed, by 67 probably a floor shift rather than on the column. Sounds like a pretty car with those colors.

The rockers and front fenders really can rust on those cars.

fintail · July 2013

On German cars, electronics are always a concern. But realistically, these cars are still engineered to have a ~20 year lifespan, no matter the maker or engine.

houdini1 · July 2013

Mine had the saddle MB tex. I am sure those seats are still around somewhere.

fintail · July 2013

I see why you bought. Those lease rates are not great.

With low down (no more than a couple percent), I wouldn't want to pay more than around 1% of price. When the previous ML was being closed out, I know a guy who leased a 55K Bluetec example with 5K down, 499/month.

crkyolfrt · July 2013

Yes, it was on the floor. I ended up driving that car for my bros wedding many moons ago. It really was a special old sled. I remember that my Aunt was so proud of it...she had driven VW bugs her whole life and always wanted a Benz. It was $5000. and the same year my Uncle (her bros) bought a new 67 Chev Impala SS with the 396...it was $5300. My Aunt loved that she got a Benz for 300 less, haha..

fintail · July 2013

They are good cars, built like a Swiss watch. I own a MB on the same basic platform, but an older model with the FI 2.2l I6 gasoline engine putting out a supercar-like 135hp (for the displacement, not too bad for the era). For a half century old car, it has held up well, it still drives nicely and it charms everyone who encounters it.

Today that Impala would be worth more than the fintail, but the MB probably aged better, under identical circumstances.

crkyolfrt · July 2013

Wow, I had no idea your fintail was only a 2.2 litre! As an L6 what wonderfully smooth engine it must be.

fintail · July 2013

That was one of the larger engines - the largest was a 3.0 I6. Yes, it is a very smooth unit, smaller displacement I6s are kind of special. Fuel injection helps too.

I once had a W126 S-class with a 3.0 I6 - thanks to the dual firewall and other refinements, it was like an electric motor in some situations.

gagrice · July 2013

I know a guy who leased a 55K Bluetec example with 5K down, 499/month.

That is what I expected it to be. Not nearly twice that. He emailed me back saying that was the starting price. I told him up front make your first offer the best. And he screwed up. Though I don't think it would be close to what we got on the VW.

ruking1 · July 2013

An interesting metric, a local VW dealer lists 2 (USED) 2012 VW T TDI Luxury between 49k to 51k.

So if you got the 13 VW T TDI Lux @ 49.8k ? ! you are - $ 800 behind to + $1,200 ahead on a 1 year old car? :shades: Not bad !?

AND for no monies down, walked out (well probably DROVE) the door with just youz's signatures !? Given 12,000 miles per year, that is .06 cents per mile to being paid .10 cents per mile to drive a NEW car? First scheduled maintenance interval @ 10,000 miles, included in the price? L's G.

nyccarguy · July 2013

That's their asking price. It'd be interesting to see the auction value.

Gagrice - congrats on the new T-Reg! Can't wait to hear your driving/ownership impressions. Looks like ruking gets credit for a diesel convert!

ruking1 · July 2013

That is what was used. So on that, we would agree. If you see a flock that nice at auction, send me a text !!!!! Auctions also charge their percentages. !! Naturally there are vendors offering financing also. I went to one where they started off an auction with a BMW 3 series (NON diesel, so might be off topic) (talk about 20/20 hindsight, aka coulda, woulda, shoulda) it gaveled @ $300. GEEZ !

In the greater interests of this board, I think many to all of us (diesel owners or not) are interested in the experiences (good to bad) of the greater numbers and percentage of folks who do buy diesels, aka the broader headline of "alternative fuels".

Unrelated, but nexus to diesels and probably TMI, not long ago a TSB (technical service bulletin) was sent for dealer modification of the diesel fuel nozzle. (VW T TDI to allow only the ULSD nozzle into the TDI's fuel tank) On first impression, I really don't want it done. However, the jury is still out.

stever · July 2013

I dunno - is it worse to put gas in a diesel or diesel in a gasser?

Maybe diesels should have square nozzles that won't fit in rounds holes?

ruking1 · July 2013

If anything, the co mingling of diesel hoses with RUG/PUG hoses (diesel pumps and hoses used to be separate in older stations- newer stations put them together) makes it more likely that RUG/PUG required vehicles get an accidental fill up of diesel ALSO ! With all the emphasis on GREEN fuel, are there folks who see the green handle (ULSD) and chose the "environmentally GREEN" hose !? With 95% of the passenger vehicle fleet being RUG/PUG (PUG estimate @ 9%) I would SWAG filling diesel in vehicles requiring RUG/PUG is probably more common than the other way around. I have not seen statistics on this.

gagrice · July 2013

While my dealer was looking for my white with saddle brown he found one the manager of a VW dealership was driving. Has about 6500 miles on it. He would not sell it at the USAA price. Wanted right at the MSRP. I would imagine they can sometimes do better when the new ones are all gone for the MY. It was in Utah. I tried buying one from Utah and they would not discount near as much as SD dealers. The $49,804 is less than Edmunds TMV for the TDI Lux.

Signed over the Sequoia to my wife's grand daughter this morning. In CA if you sell to family there is no sales tax. That saved about $1440.

gagrice · July 2013

Looks like ruking gets credit for a diesel convert!

Not a diesel convert, but a Touareg convert. I am hoping to beat his MPG with my milder driving technique. :shades: Can't wait to take it out on the highway for a couple hundred mile drive.

ruking1 · July 2013

For sure your wife's GD had a HUGE savings ! This is not to mention a probable good deal on the vehicle in the process. It sounds like W/W !!!

ruking1 · July 2013

Indeed, I am swagging you will do BETTER !

gagrice · July 2013

Yes the GD is tickled. She was driving an older 4Runner with 2WD. They are looking forward to winter trips to her husband's family in Tahoe. They also have the Sportswagen TDI that he commutes with. That is 45 miles each way so they save a bunch with the VW TDI.

crkyolfrt · July 2013

With all the emphasis on GREEN fuel, are there folks who see the green handle (ULSD) and chose the "environmentally GREEN" hose !?

Yes, I could see this happening..also for my comment on this:

I would SWAG filling diesel in vehicles requiring RUG/PUG is probably more common than the other way around.

Yes, I agree with this also, mainly because your average diesel owner is basically a more responsible/aware vehicle owner...they aren't driving a diesel by accident..they drive one cuz they want one.

Steve...it's wor$e to put gas in a diesel.

stever · July 2013

Thanks, wondered. I see ads in the UK for mobile service to drain tanks when you stall out after putting petrol in a diesel. There's a job opportunity for you when diesels catch on more. :shades:

And I agree, Ruking - for a while there only diesels had green pump handles and then some suits decided that gasoline was "green" too. Dumb. Seems like BP was the instigator.

ruking1 · July 2013

To me, the other scary thing is that the "green" plastic hose cover does not seem to always designate ULSD/ D2. I have seen them on other than D2 dispensers.

crkyolfrt · July 2013

If only it was as simple as just a pump out drain. That scene is more doable if diesel was pumped into a gas job..
But that said, it used to be worse when diesel injection pumps were wholly responsible for entire injector psi. So...if anyone else can weigh in on the newer diesels, maybe it is not the catastrophic scene that it once used to be? Still really bad though..

stever · July 2013

Yeah, the mobile service covers both but I think diesel in a gasser is much more common. I don't even remember that outfit doing gas out of diesel recovery when I looked at that link a year or so ago. "More than 400 people accidentally do this every day in the UK" - that in a country where there's what, likely 50% diesel vehicles running around? You'd think it wouldn't be too hard to make the nozzles harder to fit into the wrong filler tube.

And yeah Ruking, I was thinking about the plastic hose covers when I said gas went "green".

crkyolfrt · July 2013

For sure...remember when we went no lead? Rhetorical...of course you do...haha ya got a few years on me old man :shades:
They made the leaded nozzles a bigger dia than the insert they put in no lead filler pipes to prevent mistakes.

I'm shocker by those UK'rs...there're in a bigger, mindless hurry over there than we are here I guess

Ya..gas in a diesel (even a really new one) is still something I would DREAD happening to my new GLK. Even caught quickly (let's say the fuel stn delivery guy had a mix :sick: ) I'll bet that scene would take an easy 150000 miles of life off the affected engine overnight. One problem for sure that I can get my head around, even with present tech, is the horrendous damaging pinging that would ensue before actual shutdown. Most owners (borrowers?) putting gas in their (friend's) diesel, are the least likely to actually tune in to the terrible sounds their car was making before actually conking out

Gas is more explosive than diesel under ambient atmospheric conditions, so imagine how prone the electronics would allow it to ping under the extra high CC pressures of a diesel? The knock sensor would tell the ECU to retard timing as much as it possibly could. But that parameter might still be so broad that pre-detonation (and noticeable lack of power) would create an awfully foul mood diesel.

So...that's actually an interesting question...I wonder if these new models have sophisticated enough electronic intervention that they shut the engine down like right away at the first whiff of the wrong fuel? Fast enough that maybe the engine life can be saved?

ruking1 · July 2013

In the US market that UK statistic is hard to put into context. There are 40 M passenger vehicles in the UK. So the incidence is 146,000/40,000,000= .00365% The US market has 258.4 M, AND we do not have the US market figures. So even if we do 146,000, the incidence is .000565%. Again 50% + are diesels in the UK (20 M+). The US markets are more like 5% (12.92 M)

stever · July 2013

I have no idea if that 50% number is real either - just pulled it out of thin air.

But 400 a day is a bit much, especially if it happens to you.

crkyolfrt · July 2013

I've heard that 50% number randomly quite often too, so is probably not far off the mark.

Anecdotally though, on Coronation Street (a UK TV soap) the vast majority of vehicles used in scenes are predominantly diesel...by a landslide actually..

gagrice · July 2013

Seems like BP was the instigator.

BP was an early adopter of ULSD before the mandate. If they have put green handles on their gas pumps that is a bad idea. However I will not be buying any BP/ARCO diesel for my Touareg. They only take cash or charge for ATM purchases. So I cannot use my Costco AMEX that gives me 3% on all fuel purchases at non box store stations. Our local Chevron has good price on diesel most of the time. Right now Diesel and RUG are both around $3.95. Plus I only have to fill half as many times as with the gassers.

gagrice · July 2013

One good thing in CA is all the gas dispensers have to have those sealed type nozzles to protect us from Deadly RUG/PUG fumes. Diesel nozzles are still the same old ones that have been around a long time. I never let anyone fuel my diesel vehicles in the past except where forced by Oregon law. And he was the one that broke my filler cap and it cost him $225.

ruking1 · August 2013

What I have come to think about cars outside US markets is to suspend both belief and disbelief. While we tend to think they are seamless across country's boundaries, they are indeed NOT ! While not many folks do this, try to import a NOT made for US market car into the US. One will quickly see, it is FAR from seamless.

ruking1 · August 2013

about North Dakota??????

dudleyr · August 2013

Seems like we have a new diesel mpg champion - at least by EPA standards.

http://rumors.automobilemag.com/2014-bmw-328d-rated-by-epa-237163.html

fintail · August 2013

Now MB needs to get the C250 diesel going to beat it. C250 diesel 4Matic wagon, yes.

fintail · August 2013

As long as the car is 25+ years old, you'll have no problems. Otherwise, virtually impossible. The US has perhaps the most repressive private import rules on the planet.

gagrice · August 2013

That is GREAT news. I love to see the competition for diesel champ. The Passat TDI did not hold the title for long. Though the Chevy Cruze diesel is top rated at 46 on highway. They must have geared the Cruze for highway mileage, as it drops off in the city well below the competition. The ball is back in the Audi and MB court to top BMW. I don't expect the Domestics to compete much.

gagrice · August 2013

I seriously thought about bringing an old diesel SUV from Canada. The hassles and just old technology, combined with very high prices killed my interest. Glad I waited. Hopefully I have my new ride today.

ruking1 · August 2013

A good thing really !!!! For decades BMW used US markets to sell their (relatively) fuel hogs (among others). The BEST ( mpg) BMW's STILL do not hit US markets. :sick:

It would seem the (ZF?) 8 speed A/T is a key component of both the performance and mpg metrics. Makes me wonder if a 6/7 speed M/T will be offered. It remains to be seen if real world mpg will meet and/or exceed or come below EPA figures. @ almost 40k MSRP, the new BMW 328 D, is FAR (@ app $17 K) MORE expensive than the VW mentioned in the article

With a few (can't do without) options, $45 to 55 k would probably seem "normal".

So for VW, I think it hastens the 8 speed dry sump DSG to the US markets.

I also look forward to the also rumored BMW X5 35 D or whatever the redesign will be designated. Since the 328 D has the 8 speed A/T, I would suspect the X5 35 D would also have to have it. (from 6 speed)

14 BMW X5 35 D "REDESIGN"

crkyolfrt · August 2013

Why does VW call that a dry sump transmission? It must use gear oil for gear lubing. I assume the 'dry' part is that the clutch discs run dry, as opposed to being immersed in oil, as in many bike transmissions. As for longevity, usually the immersed type lasts longer. I suspect there must be fewer parasitic losses with dry clutch use. I also wonder what happens to the clutch wear dust in a DSG? I guess it has a bell housing similar to a traditional std tranny. Yet any cross section pic I have seen it seems that the area where clutches engage are sealed, and you would think that dust debris would muddy the many servo operations etc.

Is this DSG trans considered to be less maintenance demanding than a hydraulic auto? Do they have longer life-expectancy predictions than a traditional auto?

ruking1 · August 2013

Perhaps the way I wrote it could have conveyed more information. Current DSG is a 6 speed (shiftable) "wet" sump. I read a few articles saying VW is working on a DSG with 8 speed (shiftable also) AND it is destined to be of dry sump design. Current technical details, I do not think are out.

Current DSG has an oem recommended 40,000 miles fluid AND filter change. It is not unlike an oil change, albeit less accessible. It does take specific synthetic fluids, filter and a special tool or two ( if one DIY's). So (swag ONLY) the DRY SUMP will have a much longer to life time shelf life. Now LIFE ( 6speed M/T and 8 speed A/T) is more my language. :shades: This 40k miles scheduled maintenance item seems to be a source of gas and can be a deal breaker for some. Actually, I was skeptical at first. For the gas it caused, VW stepped up and slapped a 10 year/100,000 miles DSG ONLY warranty. The wife and commute buddy wanted an automatic. They both love the 09 Jetta with DSG. Me? Jury needs 340,000 more miles to decide. :confuse: I'd be happy with 300k to 500k with no DSG breakdown. :surprise: I would be just fine with a 6 speed manual, ala MINUS - $1,100 to boot.

So if you are ready for a TMI between the 6 speed DSG and the 8 speed A/T, I can follow up with another post. :shades:

crkyolfrt · August 2013

yes please

Also, regarding the 40k interval, they must impose a time limit too? That one is the one that always sticks in my craw, as I usually run out of time long before miles. And if you don't do the required maintenance interval on time, they can use that as an excuse to disallow wty in the future if you are unfortunate enough to have a premature failure of some sort.

ruking1 · August 2013

To answer your first question, it seems strictly to be mileage driven. NO, not to my knowledge on the time limit for DSG fluid change. As you know, a A/T, DSG is more of a closed system and is not subject to the byproducts (of combustion, etc) as in motor oil. I know the (wet sump) DSG does generate some waste byproducts of a dual clutch system, hence a filter (looks like a mini motor oil filter).

So the TMI is BOTH (DSG & A/T) can be UP/DOWN shiftable. Combined with the NO fuel drawn on downgrade, I use (both) to maintain space cushion (downshift primarily, up shift to take road transitions, throttle only if the road transition calls for it) , and the BETTER mpg really takes care of itself (due to no fuel draw) . I do know that if I was more glued to the tach, I can probably GREATLY improve on the 44 mpg (Jetta) and 39 mpg (Touareg). There are a few spin off consequences. I use brakes far less (almost exponentially less) and because people @ my six freak out not seeing predictable brake lamps, tend to follow MUCH farther back.

crkyolfrt · August 2013

"Twin Power Turbo"

So it would suggest that BMW is also twin turbo'ing their 4 cyl. There is a common theme happening here. Big power and torque from relatively small displacements with the use of twin turbos and white handkerchief type exhaust emissions at the tailpipe by using DEF fluid in those smaller displacements also.

I'm going to predict that VW will revive new spec capabilities for their TDI in Golf/Jetta/Passat use, by going the DEF route also. In the beginning, there was this perception that "oh no...I gotta buy DEF too? That will erase my fuel savings and be an extra annoyance to boot." I'm sure MB charging $80 to $100. for a DEF service didn't help with this misperception. So FF a couple years (18 months?) and we are starting to learn that using DEF is not only not expensive, it is also infrequent enough that it can't really be considered much of an inconvenience either, unless you are easily perturbed. I think placing the fill pipe beside the fuel fill area is a good route to go also, (under the hood would be best, IMO) although I wonder if BMW might regret the font style choice of that % figure behind the 8 on the fuel cap. (referencing max ratio of biodiesel).
I had to get my 3.25 glasses before I could see that it said "Max 8%" not Max 87...as in 87 octane.. :sick:

They could also offer an upscale performance option in the Passat and Golf by offering AWD by twin turbo'ing their present 2.0 dump the burning of diesel fuel to burn off particulates in the cat by using DEF also. And if they were really smart, they'd offer the Passat with that same pkg as a wagon. One can hope..
MB will probably beat them to it tho with the C250..
Good times ahead..

crkyolfrt · August 2013

Well that is great to know! I think even with crankcase oil change intervals, when they say 7-10000 miles or 6 months to a year what ever comes first, it is an overkill make work project for them (the dealers) if someone literally only does 2500 miles, each trip at least 30 minutes run time, so IOWs, the engine being brought right up to full operting temps even in the winter, yet say that you should replace that perfectly good oil after 6 months, is just a get-outta-wty-claim excuse later if you don't follow their schedule closely, so not having a time limit always piques my interest with some of these maintenance chores. I respect that.

houdini1 · August 2013

30 some years ago I used to put about a quarter gallon of gasoline in when I filled up my diesel in the winter to prevent frozen fuel lines. Never gave me a problem.

crkyolfrt · August 2013

What vehicle? How many miles did you put on it before parting with it?

I'd love to see the look on their face at VW or MB when you asked if it was ok to mix gas with ULSD at a 4:1 ratio, lol..

A stove oil mix with D2 is a much better way to fend of waxing. Engine longevity-wise at least.

houdini1 · August 2013

Mercedes 240D, but I think you misread my post. I said a quarter GALLON, not a quarter tank !!!

ruking1 · August 2013

In one of the so called "environmental" states, the electricity portion prices of 131-200% of baseline is .31114 cents per Kwh ! In my case, a plug in electric car would get billed at THE HIGHEST rates even as the continued and boring clarion call is to consume LESS electricity, albeit along with PENALTIES !!!

Its hard to consume LESS electrical energy, when one consumes MORE electrical energy !? Or, ... is that a DUH... they hope you do not see?

So when plug in electrical Kwh are figured @ 8 cents (or less), 31+ cents is 389% MORE. NO good deeds go unpunished and unpenalized ! :sick: :lemon:

On the other side (of the bill) it is equally obvious why there are little to NONE, natural gas vehicles ! @ $1.00072 per therm. This is on a 112 % mark up !! And we vilify the oil companies (Shell, Chevron, etc) for making 9 cents on the dollar (in a good year) !!??? :lemon:

What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

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