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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

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Comments

  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    just got a CA "STAR" station "smog certification" on a 13 year old 385 hp/385 # ft of torque vehicle.

    What vehicle was this? It couldn't have been the TLCs.. and the VW T doesn't have that much HP, plus has a bit more torque than that, and it sure wasn't the Jetta or Golf, so...
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I had to get my wife's LS400 smogged this year. Passed well below the maximum numbers. It is now 24 years old. The diesel smog check in CA is a joke. Another case of harassing diesel owners and collecting more fees. Not happy with higher tax on diesels. Not sure when they will start checking my Touareg TDI.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited October 2013
    It's the Chevrolet Corvette Z06. Essentially like the others, it smogs as when NEW. Not bad despite the 60 year old + engine design. LOL It sports pushrod "technology," even as I have read, the 2014 iteration. I read in passing the new "Sting Ray" posts H EPA 29 mpg. BUT it has a Tremec 7 speed M/T.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited October 2013
    Unfortunately that will be next year. Yours is a 2013, so as a condition for registration, 2014.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I don't think you have to have a smog check the first 6 years. This was the first year for the 2007 Sequoia. I sold it to the grand daughter so no smog was needed as a condition of sale. Then it is every other year. At least in this part of the UPSR of CA.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited October 2013
    Yes, that used to be correct. In the earlier days it used to be EXEMPT! I had to smog the 09 TDI in 10. I agree with you, TOTAL RIP off !

    Well, I was posting 34.5 mpg, but could not resist much less than 75 mph on the upgrade (210 miles ZERO to 7382 ft down to 6225 ft) on the SOS DD trip. The views and weather were GORGEOUS !! It didn't fall off too much given a few stops and slows for mountain road work (escorted traffic, other than those, almost no back ups). The low fuel lamp and buzzer went off and filled 23.77 gals/ 26.4 gal tank (3.65 per gal) 786 miles or 33.2 mpg.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    edited October 2013
    I had forgotten you had a Vette in the mix. You sure do have an interesting and diversified collection in your family..altho the Bruisers (an affectionate term I use for the TLCs) are a bit redundant..especially since nary an oil burner between the pair :(:wink:
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I wish I still had my 1964 TLC. I would of course gotten rid of that horrible engine Toyota put in it. Along with most of the running gear. I guess it was the body style that I liked. Only two surviving photos I have first the Tierra del Sol run 1965 and high in the Sierras.

    image

    image
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    Wow! Very cool pics, Gary..
    I'm not familiar with the Tierra del Sol run. Was this your very truck?

    See why I call 'em Bruisers? haha That one's a little close, if not over the edge of maybe of running the oil pump a little starved, unless you had special baffles in the pan?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I killed the engine and winched out. The TDS run is one of the oldest 4X4 runs in the US. Still going every year. They make it tough going. I was taking pictures and my wife wrote stories for 4X4 and Dune buggy news back then. I still have some of the old newspapers. I should scan them into the computer.

    http://www.tds4x4.com/
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    The second pic looks like one of my minivan roads.:D
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    Yes, it is a diesel. Understand this, at 750 miles, a very small sample. And yes, the EPA numbers for a Cruse eco are within 10% of the diesel.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    On the mpg issue alone, the initial mpg usually takes a longer mileage to get better, than a gasser. However from the git go mpg is usually better. That is in addition to folks understanding and implementing driving the diesel and now increasingly, the transmission in accordance with its parameters. So how are you liking it?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited October 2013
    I'm still amazed that my lifetime mpg keeps going up and the van has ~193k on it. I figured it'd level off at 90k and start sliding.

    August's Car and Driver has a comparison on the Jetta TDI and Cruze diesel. The manufacturers probably wish they would have left off the "rolling coal" photo with the article though.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited October 2013
    So the real question, in your case would be how many more mpg would a diesel like model van start off with? Fuelly and fuel economy.gov lists them for the 03 TDI and gassers 1.8 T and 2.0. They also list a 6 cylinder. The cents per mile driven savings (at todays prices) is almost staggering using diesel. Mine is a puppy compared to yours (186,000 miles) .

    Since we have nothing to compare the Cruze with, I would say VW did pretty well with all the decontenting starting in 2010. If I were looking to get another Jetta TDI I might reconsider after reading that article. Right now I have an ad blue and two with no ad blue.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited October 2013
    Lifetime mpg on the gasser is 21.66. I presume a diesel moving a box would do ~30 - what's that, 50% better? I don't track gas prices but I've burned 8912 gallons and that's a staggering number (to me anyway) at $3 a gallon ($26,763 - about $4k more than we paid for the van). Just another reason to downsize to a hatch or wagon and aim for 40 mpg.

    I saw the print edition of C&D at the docs earlier today but my wife got finished with her eye exam and I never actually read the comparison. The photo stuck with me though.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    They seemed to wring out both vehicles quite well. If I was going for a Sedan I would probably get the Passat for all the extra room in back. And the real world mileage is better with the Passat than the Jetta. Not sure why. I am glad Chevy has jumped into the fray. Anyone looking should give it a go.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited October 2013
    I think with the "marks" on both, it is almost a toss up. I think the article is good at fleshing out the issues. Of course add to that, personal preferences. But then on the other hand I just got 2 local dealers advertisements about ZERO down and ZERO percentage and a list of other incentives.

    I used to be a skeptic about Ad Blue. Now if it was a choice between having it or not, I would still be in the NOT camp. However given current regulations, it is pretty apparent the use of Ad Blue gives @ least an mpg advantage.

    I am not put off in the least about (Chevrolet's) rear drum brakes. Given some of the issues on VW's about REAR disc brakes, not only is Chevrolet being proactive about addressing the (American) issue, but rear drum brakes are both cheaper and last longer. (given the issue).

    While off topic, the rear drum brakes on the Honda Civic are swagged to go a minimum of 250,000 miles. So what would be a full consumption issue on the Civic is cut literally @ least in half.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Who's doing the 0/0 - Chevy or VW?

    I'm in the amen corner with you on rear drums.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited October 2013
    ..."Who's doing the 0/0 - Chevy or VW?"...

    VW is doing the 0/0, and the incentives.

    There is actually a back story to Chevrolet/GM dealers in this area. I didn't get the Z06 in the immediate local area. Three local area's dealers were either forced out or went Chapter 11, when GM went through its Chapter 11. So while I am sure there is a now (going on) #4, I haven't kept up with it and have been using an Indy. One side benefit is the owner when I go likes to get me out in his latest power and handling upgrade projects (normally other clients cars) . Some of these machines are just plain scary.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited October 2013
    In line with the mpg taking a lot longer to get better with diesels than like model gassers, I posted 34 mpg (computer) . There was relatively little traffic and it posted 37 mpg for 101 or so miles (down out of the mountains) where it got lost @ 34 mpg for the rest of the trip. So 33.6 mpg for the round trip (420 miles)

    The interesting anomaly was being able to "resume speeds" after new tires break in. There were also road work delays in the mountains. My swag would have been a LOSS of mpg even for a downgrade leg.
  • ikedcikedc Member Posts: 5
    these dsg tranys can be fun especially on down hills,shift into neutral. engine will of course coast at 800rpm . when you slow or put brakes on the engine will slow the car and maintain rpms. I have saved a lot of trany shifts in my 05.5 tgi jetta dsg----272000mi no trany service. I also use my dsg to lug up hill contrary to some that like to keep the r's up.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited October 2013
    ..."I also use my dsg to lug up hill contrary to some that like to keep the r's up."...

    I think this is harder to understand for those that have not driven a diesel and actually a lot of diesel drivers have issues implementing this. Normally this works better for a stick shift. One UP shifts to use the torque band better. One would normally downshift for a gasser stick shift. On the DSG (unless you use the manual sequential gear SHIFT gate) is really programmed to shift at the so called "correct" points.

    Another advantage is to keep the engine in GEAR. When you do put it in neutral there is a cumulative fuel draw (.2 gal per hour) vs a "NO FUEL DRAW".

    Now i personally do not shift the DSG as much as the VW TDI's A/T, as the fluid interval change is "LIFETIME" vs 40,000 miles DSG oil and filter change. However it is encouraging that there are some DSG's with 272,000 miles !!! So in that sense, I can see that it really does not wear as fast as I have been led to believe. I also will change the DSG filter and fluid @ the 65k to 70k miles range.
  • ohenryxohenryx Member Posts: 285
    I believe the recommended fluid change interval on the DSG is and always has been 40k miles. The 6 speed torque converter automatic is a different story. My 2008 Passat, with the 09G automatic, is supposed to be a "sealed unit", never requiring service. Newer model VWs with the same transmission are supposed to have the fluid changed (but not the filter) every 40k miles. The dealer recently serviced my transmission as part of a recall (for a solenoid I believe).
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited October 2013
    It would seem the OEM recommended DSG interval for (older) Passat is the same @ 40,000 miles. How are you liking the 09G A/T?
  • ohenryxohenryx Member Posts: 285
    100.5k and still shifting smoothly. The car looks like new and drives like new. Still on the original set of brakes.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited October 2013
    Yours' might be an(normal) example of what I have been saying all along. A (any actually) passenger vehicle should be able to go to 100,000/120,000 miles, aka "first major tune up" with "normal scheduled" maintenance. Any unscheduled maintenance (warranty/otherwise work) is usually the subject of reliability and durability surveys !

    For 120,000 miles (first major tune up) Fuel Economy .gov lists 09 Jetta TDI @ 39.4, mpg (ULSD@ $3.99), 2.0 T @28.4 mpg (PUG@ $3.75), 2.5 L mpg @26.0 mpg (RUG@ 3.51), this would put consumption and cost (current corner store prices @):
    1. 3,046 gals ULSD = $12,152.
    2. 4,225 gals PUG = $15,845.
    3. 4,615 gals RUG = $16,200.

    respectively.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    (Follow up post due to Edmunds.com server lock out due to updating)

    So some reasonable expectations might be: (with reasonable care and to the hosts issue of (lack of) BOREDOM)

    1. 2nd & 3rd cycles (of 100k to 120k miles) with normal scheduled maintenance

    2. SOME unscheduled maintenance.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited October 2013
    I read this in passing in a Yahoo.com article, so I did not save a link.

    In fact, app 40% of the US passenger vehicle fleet is 10 + years old. Basically it was one fact offered in its premise, that there was a pretty heavy (structural) European market slow down. This casts a LONG shadow on US markets. The US market current MY surge (projected sales of 16M + vehicles) is/was due to low interest rates and a portion of that was to replace a portion of the 10+ years segment. So if the 2011 PVF is @ 257.5 M, 40% or = 103 M vehicles are 10 years +old.

    In contrast, European market cars acquisition and operating costs are more, despite availability of much more fuel efficient cars (US markets). The PVF is app 270 M vehicles and the average drivers yearly mileage is app 9,000 miles vs US market averags of 12,000 to 15,000 miles or 34% to 67% more miles per year.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited October 2013
    We've got a long thread going about aging fleet and surging sales over in Go Green By Driving It 'Til The Wheels Fall Off, but the EU angle didn't come up. That's probably helping keep prices down in the US and helping to push our sales, since we have easy credit again.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited October 2013
    If off topic, I will change tack. It just seemed germane to why one would want to get a diesel, which can have longer term consequences: such as: diesels being WAY more adaptable to our roads, higher like model mpg which could result in less gals consumed (as if anybody believes this fairy tale of less consumption anymore) lower cost per mile driven, fuel and others, higher resale values, etc.

    The market trend for EXPORTED US refinery products (Congress has prohibited exporting DOMESTIC crude oil but RUG/PUG, D2, etc is ok) also have never been HIGHER !! The funny part in another article, sez we are exporting to China, Russia, Africa, Brazil, Venezuela, and get a load of this, DAH MIDDLE EAST !!! :)

    They see us as "ROILING" the markets (taking their TURF?) :) Life's good !!
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Oh, I think it's on topic in here too - those excess EU cars and tech? Lots of it is diesel and we're an "underutilized" market. And with our longer commutes and wider open spaces, we should be the diesel adopters while it would make more sense if the EU had been the gas/hybrid crowd.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited October 2013
    I would TOTALLY agree with the point. As it turns out/defacto we consume (fuel) both at a greater RATE and volume, even as we are a smaller vehicle population. (257.5 M US vs 270 M + European ). We act like we have to invent the (higher mpg) wheel (and at much greater, almost unconscionable COSTs) , when models using the wheel (higher mpg) are on the European markets and have been for YEARS, if not decades ! The run of the mill 03 Jetta TDI 50 mpg @ 90 mph being just one (OLD) example. Indeed, the European model has both more power and extra gear (6 speed vs 5 speed) and will post 52 mpg !!! Why would one want a 04 Prius that indeed gets 44 mpg, but has to be driven like hyper miler Gerdes on a record setting mission, when one can drive XX mph and still get 50 mpg with almost no effort? Indeed with simiilar effort, 62 mpg + !!!!
  • MichaellMichaell Moderator Posts: 240,145
    And with our longer commutes and wider open spaces, we should be the diesel adopters while it would make more sense if the EU had been the gas/hybrid crowd.

    Exactly right, Steve! After WW2 Europe was in shambles. Small cars were the order of the day, and that mentality never really changed over the years. The price of gas and diesel were kept high due to taxes, I suspect to drive the masses to public transportation.

    The smaller distances in Europe also meant that travel by train is more common.

    And, the most popular class of car in Europe is the C-segment hatch (Focus, Golf, etc). In the US, it's the D-segment sedan (Accord, Camry, et al).

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  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited October 2013
    If we use the 12 Passat TDI as an example ("D"segment I presume?), the "CRAZINESS" is even more apparent. The 12 Paassat TDI is rated 43 mpg H EPA.

    The Taylor's posted 84 + mpg going 5 mph under the speed limit !! (95.3% better) Gerdes posted even better than his own record in a gasser/hybrid. @ 77 mpg for a 8,500 miles trip. (I am sure he wanted to complete the trip faster than a covered wagon)

    The new Audi A6 TDI, ( not light @ app 4100+ #'s) is rated @ 38 mpg H EPA with a 3.0 L TDI posting 428 # ft !

    Solely from the car poiint of view, these are truly the good ole days, the BEST of times !

    So how are the big three doing with sales on gasser pick up trucks !! ?? :)
  • ezshift5ezshift5 Member Posts: 858
    ......at circa 7,000 miles, the JSW TDI is averaging 45 per Fuelly.com. The much respected Accord 6M coupe averages circa 25-27. About 65% HWY. Again regret lateness here.

    It's all good

    best, ez
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Like you said, it is all good ! If you are driving it lightly to moderately aggressively, @ app 7,000 miles on the clock, the most likely scenario is your mpg will average BETTER on the JSW.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    Drove for over 300 miles yesterday, including a couple mountain passes and some ~80mph cruising. Car claims 39.8mpg.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited October 2013
    Essentially the same MPG @ 31 to 34 (as highway trip travel) . The areas are Highway's 101, 1, Monterey (downtown), Monterey, CA, Carmel (downtown), Carmel, Carmel by the Sea, Carmel Highlands, Pacific Grove. The weather and scenery (was) is spectacular !
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Sounds lovely. I got my watch at Carmel by the Sea in the late 70's.

    Timex, found it on the beach. Still works (how's that for mileage?). :D
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited October 2013
    Your "timing" could not be more perfect ! Literally and figuratively, this area has something for anybody/everybody. It is a heck of a destination, vacay or otherwise. Any "time" can be the right time for anyone to visit.:)
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,762
    That's really amazing economy out of such a large car!
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • MichaellMichaell Moderator Posts: 240,145
    Fin, what's your around town MPG with the Merc?

    I've always thought that diesels were better as long distance cruisers, and that hybrids were better for around town fuel economy.

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  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    So far, so good. I was on vaca. last week (Hershey swap meet) so I didn't drive it last week. (Took the camper-diesel truck got 12.2 mpg). But the second fillup, which was a lot heavier on city driving than normal, MPG guage read 33.5. It took 12.5 gal on 429 mi., which equates to 34.3, but the guage said it used 12.7 gal, which is 33.7. So, I'd say the mileage indicator is fairly accurate.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited October 2013
    I think it only makes sense that the more miles and the more gals (closer to an empty tank) that one gets, the more accurate the averages. As a follow- up to the Monterey mpg posting of 31, I did a real world fill and pen/ink 713 miles for 23/26.4 gals for an almost matching 31 mpg.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    I would think that the most accurate accounting would be to divide the trip miles by the number of gals that the computer shows consumed. Gals pumped in on the refill doesn't take into account the differences in temp, nozzle trip sensitivity, etc. from the last fill up, especially if you buy from different stations or use different pumps.

    I would think that the one true constant would be the trip mileage/gals consumed on the computer.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    edited October 2013
    Not nearly as good as on the highway. Low-mid 20s, but to be fair, I live in a congested area with negligently managed traffic controls, so I often have evening commutes with average speeds of 10-12mph.

    That's why a diesel hybrid sounds appealing to me,
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    edited October 2013
    Drove around the Palouse today, a mostly relaxing sunny day on state and county highways. Here's the result:

    image

    This includes driving over Alpowa Summit and a couple smaller passes, passing trucks, small town slow traffic, etc.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited October 2013
    Well for sure that is the formula !! ?? However the variables you mentioned (and more) are the concessions for operating in the REAL WORLD.

    Another: none of my on board computers show the (actual) gals consumed. Nor is there a way to show all the information you alluded to. Sure I can swag it (remaining) from the fuel gauge. So you are saying your Cruz diesel displays actual gals consumed? Even if it did, that would not prevent you from running out of fuel which (to me) is the underlying issue.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    Yes, my Cruze DOES show gals. consumed, AS WELL as distance to empty!!! BTW, as far as running out of fuel, that is why you have a gas guage.
This discussion has been closed.