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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

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Comments

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    All ToyLex hybrids are CVT. It looks like they have geared the Lexus higher than the Highlander to get better mileage. The RX450h is only good for 7.8 sec 0-60. So the Touareg would be in the next county by the time they get to 100 MPH. The real strength of the T-Reg is from 30 -90 MPH. I have not taken mine past about 95. It gets there very quickly. Very solid handling at high speed.

    2012 Volkswagen Touareg TDI Executive 0-60 mph 6.8 Quarter Mile 15.7
    http://www.zeroto60times.com/Volkswagen-VW-0-60-mph-Times.html
    Notice the Touareg Hybrid clocks in at 5.8 secs 0-60.

    http://www.topspeed.com/cars/lexus/2013-lexus-rx-450h-ar125653.html
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2013
    Some interesting observations :

    1. Emissions (fuel economy.com ) on the

    a, 12 Lexus RX 450H, 318 grams per mile

    b. 12 VW T TDI, 398 grams per mile

    c. 12 VW T V6 SC hybrid, 392 grams per mile.

    2. Toyota and Lexus both use CVT transmissions of unknown (to me) sub contractor. The Aisin 8 speed A/T is a lesser known subsidiary of TOYOTA is used by the VW Touareg TDI !! ??.
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    edited December 2013
    gagrice, do diesel-drivers who avoid tv and the theatre actually avoid the horror of supporting those prius&CXT-driving hollywood folks?
    (compared to gasoline-touareg drivers, let's say, to keep it an apples to apples comparison.)

    also, just for reference, what are you more likely to do, return to driving a gasser, or go see the new Hobbit movie DESOLATION OF SMOG (i hear it's about the increasing smog issues in The Shire).
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    Some comments to the rebuttal posts:
    1) towing – it’s rare that I see any car towing anything…it happens, but it’s not too frequent, so for the majority of folks that’s not an issue.
    2) competition – if you compare specs, jetta/prius are competitors, in fact with the Prius’s 21CuFt of cargo space it’s even more roomy, unless you go with the jetta sportwagon.
    3) transmission – as previously stated, most people don’t want to use manual transmissions, so that drops the TDI to the high 30’s in average MPG with an auto
    4) Extra cost for diesel fuel reduces the true cost per mile of TDIs…nobody here mentions this one.
    5) Quality/Reliability/Cost to Own – I didn’t see any response to this either.
    6) As far as a TDI “eating a Prius for lunch,” for 99.9% of driving it really doesn’t matter…it’s basically a 6-year old’s argument “I’m faster than you are…”
    7) If I had 5 kids I’d get a minivan because neither a Touareg nor a Highlander would be big enough, as they both have tiny 3rd rows. Now a Prius V would be great for three kids, with it’s 34CuFt of cargo space and 42mpg average both EPA and posted by users.
    8) Highway speeds: I did mention in my previous post that to get 50+ highway MPG in a Prius you’ll need to keep the speed to about 65-70mph. But again, most people aren’t driving 90% of the time at 85mph on the highway but if you do, then by all means blow by me in your TDI!!

    Like I said, VW TDI’s aren’t bad cars. If the price of diesel = regular gas, if VW reliability = Toyota reliability, if TDI automatics produced the same MPG as TDI manual transmissions, then maybe more people would buy them.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    What I read is that the bailout was mutual. When Fiat president visited Chrysler factories, he was appalled at the cheap plastic and interior panels in general across the range. Fiat was getting killed in the E.U. due to Europe's declining economy and was desperate for cash.

    So....

    Chrysler had the $, and Fiat had more expertise at European small car quality interiors. The new Cherokee and the Dodge Dart both use the Giulietta platform. Since the Dart "missed the target" (ahem) Jeep really needs this Cherokee to work out. Only the top end Cherokee Trailhawk with the 3.2 liter V6 with improved cooling, best 4x4 case w/locking rear diff and skid-plates will be "Trail Rated".

    Remember the Caliber? How about the Compass and Patriot? (same platform). They were the worst. "Dreadful" was the unanimous response from major car mags, particularly the 2.4 / CVT powertrain.

    Then there was the Sebring/200 which needed $200 per car just to LOOK competitive with other mid-size sedans.

    These were followed by the pre-2011 Charger and 300, both which received major face lifts and new exterior panels. Both cars are getting older, but still command good reviews from the industry and consumers, mostly due to the Mercedes platform that underpins them.

    Oh, BTW...diesel diesel diesel...there is a diesel 2.0 T available on the new Cherokee, but only in E/U for now. :(
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    Your pro's and con's are well thought out, and make a lot of sense.

    The problem? Volkswagen's look and feel "solid". They are quiet, drive better, are better equipped, and overall are (mostly) beautiful cars inside and out. VW has more experience with small passenger vehicle sized diesels than any other car maker on the planet. They were making fuel efficient diesels decades before the first Prius rolled out of the factory.

    My main beefs? Why is there no instrument panel directly in front of the driver? Why are there such cheap interior surfaces? Why not better, lightweight insulation? The car is over $30,000!!! :(

    Lastly, the "beer can" thin exterior panels, and overall poor handling/driving characteristics would have me gladly signing the buyers order on a new TDI.

    I can't help wondering...do Prius owners turn and look back at their cars lovingly on the way into the store? Hmmm.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    You have also left out my big complaints with the Prius, comfort and noise. If you only listen to Rock n Rap music, those two characteristics are probably not high on your list. We listen to mostly classical music which does not compete well with noise. Being jarred by every rut in the roads around here is worth thinking about. With our CA 3rd world roads a substantial undercarriage is a big plus. You can't dodge all the ruts.

    I do have to wonder if Prius has reached all the buyers they are going to reach? Their numbers are flat this year on sales.

    While all the diesel numbers are increasing. From my local dealer they have a hard time keeping the TDIs on the lot. Last check the closest Touareg TDI is in Los Angeles. We have 6 VW dealers and not a single T-Reg TDI available. Then maybe Audi gets first go at the diesel drive trains. They are selling very well with increases every month. I am sure Toyota would rather sell more big trucks than Prius. Prius is the necessary nuisance in the lineup.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    edited December 2013
    You have also left out my big complaints with the Prius, comfort and noise. If you only listen to Rock n Rap music, those two characteristics are probably not high on your list.

    Ouch! While your music preference may be classical, your assumption that Rock listeners have less appreciation for low harmonic distortion figures than classic listeners is terribly ignorant and misdirected. And by default you also are suggesting that if the wheels are turning, the music is on, and on loud!

    What about the times we don't have the tunes on that we want a peaceful and tranquil ride? Do they not count? And regardless, even if the tunes are on and on loud, noise is cumulative. Just because you may not care for a certain type of music, does not mean that that same music isn't prone to the muddiness of competing with other outside noises like wind, tire and road roar as classical is. ! Geez..

    I've found that often I nod my head in agreement with many of your takes on things, but occasionally you touch on something way out in left field. This is decidedly one of those times.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2013
    The sense I get is we have yet to hear the last from the American auto industry. While I hope whatever upcoming is nothing but good, I think greater roilings are yet to come. So for example, the US government just lost BILLIONS of dollars selling its GM (bailout) stocks. !!!!! ???? So I think the "good news," in a pejorative way Chrysler is now mostly NON American. So in "theory" whatever US bailout funds will not go over the % American ownership. The bad news is the most likely ones Fiat will go to (in a bailout) is ITALY, and long acknowledged (EU member) financial basket case !!!!! I think in that sense, it signals a HUGE local and world wide OVER capacity.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2013
    Prius to me REMAINS an (overpriced) Corolla, Civic, etc competitor. So for example, I would have chosen a Civic TDI (IF it were and obviously not available ) vs a Prius, if I were a buyer in that segment. I wound up with a Civic gasser.@ roughly 12,000 less ! So at 38 vs 44 mpg, there is not doubt the average for the Prius gets 6 mpg better !! My longer terms goals in that segment would be 75% commute (10,000 to 15,000) miles per year with the smaller percentage being highway travel/incidental. So fuel savings would be 55 gals per year. So @ $3.51 RUG current price that is $193 per year savings. $12,000 buys a LOT of fuel. Indeed a quick and dirty division calc indicates 62 PLUS years to B/E !!!!!! With a Civic TDI getting 52 mpg vs Pious 44, BE is a failed calculation. It is VERY obvious why the EPA would keep something like a 52 mpg TDI OFF the US markets !!!! Or looking ahead a 75 mpg TDI !!!

    There is not doubt 300,000 to 400,000 miles would be the longer term goal.

    So really, not that we are NOT anti hybrid, like Prius, even as there are CLEARLY ANTI diesel folks for that matter, but they are clear not diesels nor are diesel hybrids offered on US markets.
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    edited December 2013
    It’s hard to exactly compare option for option two cars, particularly with dealer incentives, but generally speaking a Prius or Jetta will cost about the same…both in the mid to upper $20sK based on options. I’ve seen the larger Prius V Model 5 with Nav, heated seats, reclining 2nd row, for $29K.

    With respect to the instrument panel, I think the antiquated dial will soon be a thing of the past. It’s much easier to read a large digital speedo (even if off-center) than a gauge that goes to 160mph…I mean come on...160mph! You’ll be driving in much less than half of the speedo most of the time. They’re doing that to play with your mind to make you think you can drive at that speed. It’s just a gimmick. At least have the speedo stop at 100mph!

    I agree about the cheaper feel of the interior of a Prius as compared with VW…give that one to VW.

    As far as looking back “lovingly” at their car on the way to a store, I thought you’re only supposed to love a Suburu!! But seriously, I’ll look back lovingly at my wife and kids, but not at a machine…sorry. But looking at the wedge shaped Prius or Prius V as compared to a Jetta sedan or wagon, I didn't feel like either one was any more or less "beautiful" as the other.

    Most of what else being discussed is pretty subjective (look, feel, sound, etc) and while they’re important, they vary. For example many folks like the more modern look of the Prius dash, rather than a Jetta dash that looks like the majority of other dashes out there…old fashioned. The Prius had push button start in 2004…look at all the manufactures climbing aboard that train now. I admit the Prius is a very modern looking car inside that turn off a lot of folks, just like push button phones turned off those using rotary dial phones, but as we modernize, so will our cars. Not to repeat myself, but I think a 160mph analog speedometer in a passenger car is completely ridiculous.

    To further clarify the diesel price difference, if you drove 15,000 miles at 42 mpg (for Prius or Jetta) and are paying $3.20 for regular vs $3.75 for diesel, you’re paying $1,143 in gas for the Prius vs $1,339 for the TDI. Now the equivalent regular gas car paying $1,339 in gas costing $3.20 to drive 15,000 would be getting 35.8mpg (15,000/35.8x$3.2=$1,339). This means when a diesel car is getting 42mpg, it’s really equivalent to getting 35.8mpg based on these prices. So not only is the average Prius driver getting better MPG, it’s even better than they think as compared to a diesel’s advertised MPG when factoring in the price of fuel. In general, the MPG comparison is sort of a scam. It’s better to look at cost per mile.

    Again, for all the comments, it’s still back to reliability, ownership costs, and much less cost per mile to fuel. And while the Jetta may have better quality materials and is quieter, the Prius, particular the new Prius V, isn’t a loud car on the highway and is particularly quiet at low speeds when the engine isn’t even running!

    As far as the last post about a Prius being on par to a Corolla or Civic, that is incorrect, as they’re actually more in line with the smaller Prius C, if you look at passenger legroom/headroom/etc and cargo space. A Prius is more in line to an Accord/Camry.

    According to http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=31188&id=31186&id=31187&id=- - - - 32183

    The average Prius C is getting 51.7mpg as compared to a civic owner getting 35mpg, so the Prius C will save $470 in gas based on $3.50/gallon & 15,000 miles driven. Depending on options, the Prius C can cost a couple of thousand more than a Civic, but, it depends on the options chosen. The MSRP range for the civic is $15,755 - $24,055 and $18,950 - $23,230 for the Prius C.

    Maybe the bottom line is that if you’re into a “drivers” car with the 160mph speedo then go for the jetta, but if you’re looking at car as a means to an end (the end being getting you and your family from A to B and trying to save money doing it in a comfortable manner), then you become more interested in long term reliability, ownership costs, interior roominess, large cargo and storage areas.

    I’m not anti-diesel. When I bought my Prius V, I seriously looked at the jetta TDI sportswagon, but the MPG, cost of diesel, and VW reliability as compared to Toyota turned me off, and while the interior of the sportswagon had a higher quality feel, the Prius V was much more practical with it’s sliding and reclining rear seats, a lot more storage areas up front, higher seating, and just a more open feel to the entire interior, plus the overall modern look of the interior. Those were my subjective reasons beyond the objectives ones of ownership costs, reliability, MPG, fuel cost, etc.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2013
    ..."It’s hard to exactly compare option for option two cars, particularly with dealer incentives, but generally speaking a Prius or Jetta will cost about the same…"...

    That might be very true for you. It was very easy for me. Further, I have not a thing against you paying (in my case) $12,000 MORE because you like, want, need a Prius. So if 12,000 MORE is "...about the same...", then send me a check for $12,000 ! :)
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    hmmm $19,000 for a Prius C minus $12,000 = $7,000, so I applaud you purchase of a new Civic for $7,000!
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    Anyway, this is a diesel forum, not civic vs prius c. Let's just say we differ on the subjective aspects of a Prius vs a diesel TDI and for some those subjective differences make buying a Prius impossible, but for others the objective differences making buying a Jetta impossible.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2013
    Michael Horn, MBA from the University of San Francisco new head of VWA has identified a new MIDSIZED SUV as a key to its "slumping" sales. No word as to the TDI percentage. It also needs to strengthen its small suv/cuv segment.

    "Volkswagen Replaces Its U.S. Chief ", by Neal Boudette, pg. B3 WSJ Friday, Dec. 13,2013

    So really the small car market, like where the Prius is positioned is truly not a HUGE driver. 75% of the American passenger vehicle fleet are still LARGE cars to light trucks. So the fact that VW will not get into that segment has a certain amount of risk.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2013
    I am glad you acknowledge this is a diesel forum. I think "impossible" is your characterization, not mine nor for the large majority of folks who follow this diesel thread. This characterization is reason for your buying Prius. So be it. The only issue is how the anti diesel sentiment restricts CHOICE !! It has been acknowledge more than once the diesel passenger vehicle population is @ 5% and less. Let's diesel on !
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Oh, I think the comparisons are apt. What would it take for you to buy a diesel?

    Well, you look around and your options are gassers, diesels and EVs. Diesels are growing, but hybrids came out of nowhere and are a legit player. EVs are another story.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2013
    Hybrids came out of no where? AH no !! They have been and will remain the US POLICY !!!! They just have not done as well as the EPA policy makes had hoped.

    IF you want to define one as coming out of no where really they are the TDI's !! ??

    The corollary of course: despite our best efforts to kill diesel, it is doing far better than we can WANT to acknowledge.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    edited December 2013
    There will always be a place in the world for analog gauges. In many instances, they simply have the ability to tell you more than a digital. A compression gauge is one example. Doctors prefer analog for taking your blood pressure..again because the needle deflection characteristics tell you more.

    If analog gauges are designed clearly (many are not tho, IMO) then reading a tach or speedo is viscerally and visually easier and more pleasing on the brain to interpret than flashing digits losing or adding bars to create a number. One has the built-in characteristic of indicating progressive movement one way or the other, while the other has broken info that can go either way and you don't know what it is till the brain has connected the dots...err...bars.

    Many owners of vehicles, especially enthusiasts with cars and bikes, regard their vehicle on a certain passionate level..including the purchase, the actual drive, care and maintenance (whether they tend to it themselves or not), washing/waxing, chatting about it (including defending it –mirror–) and yes even viewing it with a glance over their shoulder as they walk away from it.
    But ya..I get that it takes all kinds. Some people consider everything at their disposal a tool, a "means to an end"..others though regard some things as instruments and the ride, or the tune, speaks in languages that are sometimes lost on some. We have a very diversified world. Thank goodness we are not all the same.

    Regarding your FE numbers...I see EPA's got yours..

    I'll give you a tick for your reliability point, but you still have not addressed hills, cold climates, a better ride or good ol'-fashioned urge. It's not about doing 160 mph, it's about being able to merge with unequivocal authority when the need presents itself.

    The Prius C is based off the Yaris.

    My 89 Mitsubishi Vista 4x4 wagon had upright seating, great visibility, and yes..it even had rear sliding AND reclining rear seats...back in 89..
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited December 2013
    Diesel passenger cars have been available "forever". They may have been pickups or the odd MB but you could buy them.

    How long have hybrids been available - ten years?
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    Again, facts are facts about the price of diesel affecting the cost per mile driven thus reducing most diesel posted MPGs by 10-20%, the fact that manufactures making diesels don't have the most stellar reliablity numbers, most people don't want to drive manual transmissions that are almost required to achieve the high posted diesel MPG ratings, and the fact that there are better alternatives available for saving money on fuel costs, and more importantly saving transportation costs, including costs to repair, maintain as well as fuel a vehicle.

    The title of this forum is "Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?" and for many the answer would be if the price of gas went to $5.00/gallon, the price of diesel = RUG, high diesel MPG could be had with an automatic transmission, VW became as reliable as Toyota, and finally the Prius and all other hybrids would disappear from the market, thus only leaving the diesel behind! When these things occur sign me up!

    Now if I lived in Europe, it would be totally different, with the high cost of Japanese vehicles, the wide variety of diesel vehicles, and the price of diesel fuel. If I lived there I definitely would be driving a diesel.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I did not say I am opposed to R&R, only that it is less interfered with than soft classical by extraneous noise. I don't like noise in my vehicle at all. I listen to all sorts of music. One of the big pluses of the Touareg is the sound level in the car at 70 MPH. Which was less than any of the other diesel SUVs tested and on a par with the Lexus LS460 at 64db. It is not just the Prius that is noisy. I rented a 2010 Accord for 2 weeks. It was a noisy car also. My 2005 GMC Sierra hybrid had wind noise from the driver's side door, the dealer was never able to fix. So I am with you on having a quiet, peaceful, tranquil ride. The Prius does NOT deliver that to the owners. My Nissan Frontier is not particularly quiet either. I would not dream of driving it a 100 miles let alone cross country.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Much sound and fury signifying not much to mangle Bill Faulkner.

    I don't see your Touareg on the list (not available in Sweden?), but the Prius and the Tiguan are on a par. Both are in the top ten in one recent comparison:

    The Price of Quiet Driving – A Noise Study of 35 Passenger Cars (elevatingsound.com)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    just for reference, what are you more likely to do, return to driving a gasser, or go see the new Hobbit movie DESOLATION OF SMOG (i hear it's about the increasing smog issues in The Shire).

    The odds on either happening are very slim. If I were to watch the movie it would be on DVD free from the library. Been several years since I spent good money at a theater. I am just the opposite of Bobw, in that for me to buy another gas vehicle, they would have to remove all diesel options from the USA. And at that point I may have to leave as well. If RUG stays at the current $3.45, we are paying, Diesel would have to be $6.21 to make my last vehicle match the Touareg TDI. Even then the more frequent gas stops at inconvenient locations is something I don't plan to go back to. I love having that 700 mile range out on the highway.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    My Nissan Frontier is not particularly quiet either. I would not dream of driving it a 100 miles let alone cross country.

    :( yet I know it is a fair bit quiter than my CRV. When I go to TO, it is brutal..I dread the noise MORE than the traffic once I get there..and if you have ever driven TO in the last 5 (or even 10) years..you'll really know how bad that is..

    This is in fact the biggest reason I want to get into a newer vehicle. And noise has got to be the CRV's biggest weakness by a long shot. IOWs, it is actually quite a good vehicle on many many other levels. Sales and resales proves this with every generation. I suspect the new CRV must be a lot quieter than my generation, but I'll bet it is not a night and day difference the way the new Accord is compared to its previous generation. Honda exercises an effrontery over the years that annoys the hell outta me. They don't address something until they really have to cuz they feel their first efforts don't have to be improved upon.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2013
    Again that is one of the differences. I do not need RUG/PUG to go to $5.00 + to do the math on the calculator to know that diesel per mile driven (like model) is CHEAPER (percentage wise) . In fact diesel was app $1.85 per gal and the 03 TDI was getting 48-52 mpg. !! ??

    So if a gasser hybrid Pious getting 50 mpg is good, why would a Pious DIESEL hybrid getting 33% better fuel mileage not be.... better ! So really, it is not the all or none choices you make them out to be.

    I have made the case more than once; a more like model example would be with Honda: with the Civic gasser/gasser hybrid/TDI/natural gas. So really Honda has been (well) punished and severely for those efforts. Honda, of course is well known for reliability.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    I am just the opposite of Bobw, in that for me to buy another gas vehicle, they would have to remove all diesel options from the USA. And at that point I may have to leave as well.

    LOL..now THAT's conviction!
    ..and what's even more amusing..is I know you aren't kidding! haha
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    I'm not in the market for large SUVs for towing, but for that size vehicle I'm sure that the diesel would be the clear winner, as long as it's a reliable enough vehicle so that the total cost of ownership including maintenance, repairs as well as fuel cost is overall lower than a competitor.

    And I'm still trying to figure out how to spend $7,000 for a new Civic and a have 50mpg Prius costing more to fuel than a 45mpg tdi running on diesel fuel...yeah, I guess I need to go back and check my math.

    Nice article about the sound levels too. Now I know the car I'm driving is as quiet as I thought!
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2013
    ..."10) 2013 Volkswagen Touareg: Deal: Up to $4,000 additional dealer discount; 0.0% financing to 60 months, 0.99% to 72 months. Sharing its underpinnings and some components with the Porsche Cayenne, the midsize Touareg crossover SUV is sportier than most family minded rides. Though it’s costly, a year-end sales push should make it more affordable."

    Top Ten Year End Auto Deals.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    That is a bunch of noisy vehicles. The worst diesel SUV registered 68 db @ 70 MPH. The Touareg TDI and BMW X5 35D both registered 64db. Sounds like Sweden has some horrible roads, if an LS600h is that noisy at 56 MPH. The difference between 64db and 71db is a lot of added noise. The Tiguan is not considered a luxury SUV. You have to get the Audi Q5 TDI to do your comparison. Here are the diesel SUVs I had to choose from:

    http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/2014-jeep-grand-cherokee-summit-ecodiese- l-4x4-vs-2013-volkswagen-touareg-tdi-2013-mercedes-benz-ml350-bluetec-4matic-201- 3-porsche-cayenne-diesel-2013-bmw-x5-xdrive35d-final-scoring-performance-data-an- d-complete-specs-page-7
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    ..."And I'm still trying to figure out how to spend $7,000 for a new Civic and a have 50mpg Prius costing more to fuel than a 45mpg tdi running on diesel fuel...yeah, I guess I need to go back and check my math. "...

    With misleading logic like this, it is truly amazing you don't have more issues than you do.
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    That was supposed to be taken in jest, since you posted that you paid $12,000 less for a new Civic than a new Prius equivalent, and since the Prius C can cost $19,000 and $19,000 -$12,000 = $7,000 maybe you can tell me how much you paid for your new Civic?

    And since the AVERAGE Jetta TDI owner is getting 45mpg (which is about 40mpg if you figure in the cost of diesel) and the AVERAGE Prius owner is getting 50mpg, then that was the basis for my second sentence.

    Now you personally may be getting 60mpg in your Jetta, but I’ve seen Prius posters averaging 60mpg too, so if you want to look at outliers versus averages we can do that too.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Since the old "I Hate SUV's, Why Don't You" day's it is truly gratifying to see in comparison the over all G ratings for those SUV/CUV examples !!! .85 g,.72 g,.81g,.94 g,.85g. AND diesels now to boot !!
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    That was supposed to be taken in jest, since you posted that you paid $12,000 less for a new Civic than a new Prius equivalent, and since the Prius C can cost $19,000 and $19,000 -$12,000 = $7,000 maybe you can tell me how much you paid for your new Civic? "...

    So does that mean you do have more issues than iI have understated? :(

    And, where did you read that I said I have bought a new Civic? I do not follow the Prius C, BUT I understand reading the CR article in passing, that CR does NOT recommend the C.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2013
    ..." if you want to look at outliers versus averages we can do that too."...

    Well we already have. 12 Passat TDI with the Taylors @ the wheel set a tank full record of 84+ mph record.

    So, IF the Toyota Camry hybrid (competitor) could top that or come anywhere close, Toyota management would have been severely remiss, not to have market that advantage.

    Wayne Gerdes set his 8,500 miles hybrid record @ 66 mpg? He set his 8,500 miles TDI record @ 77 mpg. So I guess according to your logic 50 mpg is better than either 66 to 77 mpg? Let's move on !! This is becoming silly and boring.
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    In Post 11769 you write, "I wound up with a Civic gasser. roughly 12,000 less" so that made me think you bouight a Civic gasser for $12,000 less than a Prius. If that's not the case than okay. Scratch off that discussion thread.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2013
    There is nothing to scratch. What about $ 12,000 cheaper was hard to understand? For a tad bit more, I could have bought TWO Honda Civics @ that time !
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=31585&id=31226&id=32092&id=- 32093

    Based on the above fueleconomy.gov comparision, Camry hybrids average in the upper 30s MPG and the Passat diesel in the low 40s MPG, but again if you factor in the cost of fuel they'll both pay the same cost per mile. This is based on user input.

    A Prius V will average 42mpg. The Passat TDI Premium is about $32K, the Camry XLE $27K and the Prius V Model 5 $31K (although I paid $29K for mine). The Passat has a bigger back seat, but the Prius V has a much larger cargo area.

    Just based on this, I'm not sure how anyone could view the Passat as the clear winner between the three.
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    "What about $ 12,000 cheaper was hard to understand?"

    What's hard to understand is how you calculate the $12,000 savings. Show the numbers.
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    edited December 2013
    “So I guess according to your logic 50 mpg is better than either 66 to 77 mpg? Let's move on !! This is becoming silly and boring.”

    What is silly is when outlier data of 66-77mpg is compared it with real world average data 50mpg. I think some statistic book reading is in order!

    When you find some data showing average users getting 66-77mpg let me know, until then you're right this is silly and boring.

    And again, it's not just cost of fuel, but the overall ownership costs including maintenance and repairs. Here's one rating of the Passat.

    http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/Volkswagen_Passat/2013/Reliabil- - ity/

    http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/Toyota_Camry-Hybrid/2013/

    Compare the reliability of the two.

    And to the poster on the analog gauges, I agree up to a point, but it really is a personal preference. And I do like cars, the way they look and feel, but I don't think a Passat or Jetta look any better than a Prius or Prius V...inside or out. And the Prius V is quiet enough to hold a normal conversation on the highway.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    For a frame of reference. Normal conversation does not exceed 65 db. Trying to talk in a vehicle above that level requires much louder speaking. 70db is the sound level of a vacuum cleaner.

    http://www.soundbytes.com/page/SB/CTGY/decibel-levels
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    Anyway, interesting discussion, but I'll give this forum back to the regulars! Enjoy your cars!
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Next time you are cruising down the interstate at 70 MPH, tell us if your Prius does not sound like a vacuum cleaner running. You are probably safe from permanent hearing damage as it is continuous 75-80db where that will occurr. I guess I need to pop over to the Prius thread and poke a little fun. 71db @ 56 MPH is horrible. I would not want one if gas was $5 per gallon less than diesel.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    yet I know it is a fair bit quiter than my CRV

    There is an 85 year old lady in our church that has a 2012 CRV and loves it. I rode in it and was not real impressed. It was better than the one my daughter owned about 8 years ago. Spending 2 weeks in a 2010 Accord turned me off forever on the brand. Unless they do figure out how to pass emissions with their diesel engine. I would take a diesel Pilot for a test drive. They do need to get into the 21st century with their transmissions. Still using a 5 speed does not get it.

    LOL..now THAT's conviction!
    ..and what's even more amusing..is I know you aren't kidding! haha

    Not even a little bit. CA is likely to force me out with their crazy taxes and laws. There are countries that are freer and safer to live in at less cost. More than likely move to a solid red state. And keep this diesel until a better one comes along. That won't be easy for the other automakers to accomplish.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2013
    Even as we have owned the 04 Civic for a lot of years and miles, the only real comparisons with the 03 Jetta TDI are the (various) cost per mile driven metrics. Even the 03 Jetta TDI is heads and shoulders better than the 04 Civic, the operating costs cumulative and per mile driven category costs) are also higher for the Civic, EVEN as it has the superior durability and reliability ratings, as Bobw3 would love to press home and serve as a major reason to pass on German iron and take Japanese. In my case, the reputations has never matched the realities. Now I am not disappointed in any way, as I knew going in the Civic was, ... the Civic. So for me and mine it really was a case of "eyes wide shut"

    Now our( 4/4) drivers will fight to drive the German cars and will probably feel like they lost a musical chairs round when having to drive the Honda. But hey in truth, I am just fine with taking IT on the SOS/DD !!

    Actually let me modify that a bit. Perhaps why the Honda has stayed so rust free is precisely because I do NOT take it in the snow when I have for the last 11 years have taken the VW's.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2013
    "12 Vehicles Racing to Be 2014′s Truck/SUV of the Year"
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    But there are some diesels on this list:

    Want to Buy a Vehicle With a Great Engine? Ward's Names 2014's 10 Best
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2013
    I am beginning to think, given time, the V-6 3.0 L TDI will rank up there with the iconic small block 350 cu in V8. Indeed that same rating agency cites that V8 6.2 L Corvette Stingray motor ! This is not to leave out any of the big three iconic motors. It, plus the 4 cylinder 2.0 L TDI are certainly becoming the recognized STANDARDS and work horses in their segments. A so called premium small TDI has to be the MB 2.1 L TT DI.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454

    Funky Fuel Savers Face Off

    "So as you can see, this is an honest, no-nonsense comparison of utilitarian technologies — one proven and one an all-new take on a modern theme. Forget about vanity, frills and flourish. This is the pragmatic-man's comparison test and all it will deliver are the facts."

    2014 Honda Accord Hybrid vs. 2013 Volkswagen Passat TDI

  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,506

    @jipster said:
    Most of the cars I would be interested in aren't offered in diesel.

    Most of the diesels I'm interested in aren't offered in the U.S.

    Go figure.

    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
This discussion has been closed.

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