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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?
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Comments
It's not exactly a ding on diesel engines. Would it really influence someone to buy the gasser X5 instead of the diesel (all other things being equal) based on one recall for balky bolts?
That particular external assembly is apparently different on the diesel vs. the gas. Not really related to the engine, fuel or internal design. Perhaps I'm oversimplifying, but the gas and diesel use different belts as well, if one or the other had a belt recall, instead of a bolt recall, same conclusion for me. Now if the recall was for engine block cracking, whole different story.
But because you do have a BMW Z5 35D, let us know the details come January 2013.
After all, every part of a diesel engine is rougher, tougher, more robust and better engineered than anything on a crummy old gasser, right?
Careful, in trying to be a smarta$$, you might have hit it right. There was a previous debate on the 6 vs. 8 speed automatics in the diesel vs. gas. Part of that is related to the strength of the transmission. The amount of an manner in which low end torque on a X5d and Cayenne diesel gets transferred through the transmission creates greater stresses than their M and Turbo counterparts. I suspect that BMW kept/is keeping their 6-speed transmission in the X5d because they deem it more capable of handling the stress. Trying to add more gears in the same amount of space and weight by definition either requires a compromise on strength, or more expensive/stronger alloys to compensate.
I run my company, but we have enough young metallurgists and mechanical engineers - several with automotive engineering backgrounds - that I pick up a lot at the lunch table.
From a consumer 's point (POV), I would look to habitat1's response after the dealership's experience; from an auto writings point of view, Edmunds.com. It does sound like a simple R/R the (probable lower specification) part with the probable higher specification part with a specific (probably the same) torque value. I get the feeling the paperwork and ancillary tasks will probably be more of the task than the actual R/R.
Pretty much the same argument has been used (and pretty successfully I think) for the rash of minivan transmission failures that happened the last decade across a wide range of brands. The bigger vans needed beefier parts or better cooling than the stuff borrowed from sedans.
Sounds like it should be an easy fix for the X5s at least.
I have posted this for the VW Touareg, but the TDI engine puts out 406 # ft.
By a few references, the BMW X5 35 D puts out 425 # ft (4.7% more).
(Several references put) The Aisin 8 speed TDI transmission capacity @ 627# ft, or app 54.4% safety factor. The torque is 35.2% below capacity or safety factor.
For a host of reasons, I do not know what 6 speed transmission BMW uses (ZF I assume) or the counter part pieces of information.
This is just an FYI, but I have read that BMW implies a macro new design and mcicro new (ZF) 8 speed transmission for its new model 2013 X5 35 D.
I will be stopping my dealership later today and will check that out. But at least as far as the macro new design, that's not the case with the new 2013 X5d's they are ordering now. The 2013 X5d's that you would order today - as has been the case for a few months on the gas models - is still the current body style/interior. That apparently won't change until sometime in 2013, perhaps as an early 2014 model release. I'll ask about the transmission, but that appears to still be the same 6-speed as well. If you look at BMW's website specifications, that's what they list. And if you then click to the build your own, a 2013 MY comes up
BMW USA X5d.
IF (actually not) I were (again) looking for a BMW X5 35D diesel, the earliest I would consider the new transmission (if indeed they do go to the 8 speed for the 2014 MY) would be the second MY (2015). Of course the opportunity would be the 2013/2014 MY's, as they probably would be the best of that generation.
But the real trump is the smaller platform and smaller diesel engine MB MLK 250. 7 speed hybrid CVT. However, I would not want to get IT in the first MY also.
It's a steering recall, not a diesel recall.
Sat/Sun, Dec 8-9, 2012, WSJ, Biz & Fi, pg B4:
" GM Sweetens Discounts to Move Unsold Cars."
In the common place "discounts " issue, aka $2,900 to 3,500 in AVERAGE (GM only) incentives:
(this is only one example:big 3), but I had trouble wrapping my arms around this statistic.
..."Its unsold US inventory reached 788,194 cars and trucks or 3.5 months."... ( / 12 = 29.17% my sic) @ the end of November (2012 or 1 month till the end of the MY, my sic)
..."Consumers can now save as much as $4,000 on some Chevrolet Silverado's and $4,500 on GMC Sierra's according to GM's website.
In contrast VW Group posts 394,128 sales YTD (Nov) with 12,147 est in inventory aka less than 3.1%.
VW is beside itself pushing less than 10,000 in sales (445 units in inventory as of today= 4.45%) of ONE CUV, 2012 Touareg (9145 units YTD from 2011 MY 7535) of which 23% are projected to be TDI's, less than 2,300) stats VW T
Part of this is the ample use and/or "misuse" of grammatical jargon, aka abbreviationalisms (my sic) and the assumption/expectation that the reader REALLY wants to go through all of this just so he/she/it can try to understand a point that could be made much more succinctly.
Thanks.
But if I just said that without back up ( documentation), then guys like you would jump all over it (like flies on...) with stuff like: BS. How did you come to that ridiculous conclusion, etc, etc. . If the explanation bores you, ignore it, but then again, the references are there.
In the common place "discounts " issue, aka $2,900 to 3,500 in AVERAGE (GM only) incentives:
(this is only one example:big 3), but I had trouble wrapping my arms around this statistic.
Huh? aka, Say what? If someone read that entire post verbatim, word for word, acronym for acronym, and didn't get a royal headache, they should apply to the CIA as a codebreaker.
Sorry ruking, I always appreciate statistical back up to anecdotes, but I'm with spirit relative to the painful way that you string things together with the "aka's" and "sic's" and this/thats. But hey, I'm no English major, so post as you wish and I'll do my best to get to your point.
Perhaps the US success story of 102,561 2012 VW Passats YTD sold, only .0005752 are left in US inventory.
BTW, not sure where you got your VW inventory stats, but I wouldn't count on cars.com for an accurate total. I've been shopping Porsches and I would estimate that well less than 1/2 of the dealers I checked on using Porsche's dealer locator website have their actual inventories posted on cars.com.
I was hoping you could tell US !? :shades:
Porsche seems to be more like 2.53% inventory on sales of 32,091 YTD.
I can't help but swag that GM probably wishes it had the same inventory % and profits problems% that VW, BMW and probably MB has with their diesels.
(1) 244,061? I think you are either quoting all diesels sold worldwide - I don't think US X5d sales are anywhere near that number
(2) It's Spartanburg South Carolina, not Chattanooga TN. But it is a great success story nonetheless. Every X3, X5 and X6 sold woldwide is assembled in Spartanburg. 4+ million square feet under roof. And on my factory tour, at least a dozen factory employees gave me the thumbs up or stopped to thank me for buying an X5. I was humbled.
I stand corrected. I am led to believe the plant in Chattanooga, TN assembles Passat ONLY and only for the US market.
So in that sense, it is WAY different for the BMW world wide plant in Spartanburg, SC. This of course is a discussion in and of itself. I remember you have mentioned how incongruent it is to have world wide diesels built in the US factory. yet those same products in the various models are BANNED from US roads. :lemon:
This is not a gassers-are-bad problem, because Ford and Ram aren't having problems moving trucks.
This is supply and demand. Demand has dropped for the older models since competitors have newer and more modern drive trains.
Inventory is just one tiny part of the equation. VW has not made enough diesels, but if they doubled supply tomorrow they'd had unsold ones as well, and still be nowhere near Ford F150 sales.
Having said that, GM could do a diesel C/K 1500 to counter punch Ford and Ram's recent success.
..."VW has not made enough diesels,"...
Why would anyone (in their right minds) make far too many products, they can't sell??????????????
More PC:
I would say that is a hypothetical problem of YOUR manufacture, not VW's.
I think the residual diesel inventory (and sales) numbers indicate that VW and other diesel oems have made good calculations and more importantly much better EXECUTION of diesel sales. ( EXTREMELY low EOY inventory numbers and percentages)
If I were the king and government owner of GM, I would first solve for why the HUGE miscalculations of supply over demand. IF indeed that were the issue/s.
It isn't that GM hasn't demonstrated that it "GETS IT". To cite only one small example. The Chevrolet Corvette folks have been "getting it" for literally YEARS. While this might be considered a bit too glowing, Corvette doesn't build a car without someones' name on the order !!!!! They are not anywhere NEAR as custom as a GM truck can BE !!!!!!!
Here is an interesting snap shot 2012 YTD (NOV) VW Passat sales 102,561. On another data base there are 59 Passat TDI's LEFT in the US inventory or .0005752 of total sales !!!! ???
Now, I know which problem/s I would like to have if I were king and government owner..... etc.
If any of the D3 produces a 1/2ton PU with a 3.0 diesel engine they will pull sales from the other two big time. I don't think any of them have the engineering expertise to pull it off. Unless they buy technology from the Germans. Same goes for the Japanese who could make a big hit with a full sized diesel PU truck. No one has built a diesel that passes EPA/CARB rules without urea. Except VW with the 2L TDI in sedan sized vehicles. I read that same engine in a Tiguan or Q5 would require urea to pass. I guess we will see soon enough.
That is simple the King of our government does not want any layoffs in his bedchamber with the UAW. So keep production up even if it means a huge over stock. The tax payers will come through and make up the difference.
More importantly, get ready to pay more taxes
So do "WE" buy DING DONGS next?
Bottom line it is simply solved by BO, POTUS decree. Keep in mind he has gone on record saying the 20 T debt crisis is EASILY solved in less than a week. So IF it is really that easy for such a HUGE global problem...
This is an easily solved problem. The EPA changed the rules for the hybrid with the 60 mpg C /50 mpg H bru ha ha.
American light truck diesels work just fine under rules ( thank you very much that) the EPA has carved out for them and over multiple decades. It isn't that they are operating "illegally." On the other hand, it is hard to imagine that even in the SAME party line, American rules are made that American technology really can't pass !! ??????? Not only does the American Fed government own GM shares but so does its UNIONS. EPA is unionized!!?? I am not familiar with the board composition, but I am sure both have their designated board members.
On an anecdotal level filling urea tanks (app 5 gals) every 12,000 to 15,000 miles is really another no brainer. Urea comes from and is MADE in dah/ the heartland ! (MIUSA????) Can anyone really imagine not having to plug in the Volt (EVERYY day in most cases) when it runs out of battery power or not refilling a RUG to PUG gasser when they need it (1.36 times 27 fills more frequent than diesel 20 fills ) ?
American light truck diesels work just fine under rules ( thank you very much that) the EPA has carved out for them and over multiple decades.
Exactly!!! All they have to do is lower the GVW to 4000lbs for exempt diesels, and even the D3 could figure out how to make them legal. I know many contractors that buy 3/4 ton when a 1/2 ton is all they need. Just to get the advantages of diesel. Most rarely haul trailers. So it is more a matter of economy. Who really wants a wimpy V6 gas engine when you can get about the same mileage with a fire breathing Ram Cummins putting out 350 HP and 800 Ft Lbs of torque???
I disagree, I think they underestimated demand.
Sales have grown but they're still well below the best selling hybrids, and that margin keeps growing.
Running out of product to sell is not a good strategy. People come in and want to see a selection of colors, models, options. They don't see what they like, most walk. Few are willing to special order and wait 6-8 weeks.
I'm not saying a huge supply like GM has, but VW fell on the way-too-short side and that's not ideal either.
VW needs to build a higher percentage of TDI models.
So GM will have to do a lot of selling to move its 2012 MY inventory.
Incidentally right now there are 16,758 units of 2013 VW diesels in the US inventory of 66,428 total inventory units. While I stress this is merely a SWAG, that would put diesels % @ app 25%.
The new 3.2-liter PowerStroke Diesel will be the only five-cylinder turbodiesel sold in the U.S."
2014 Ford Transit Van: Fuel-Efficient Diesel Option Unveiled (Fox)
"Ford has already announced that it will also be fitted with the 3.5-liter turbocharged EcoBoost gasoline engine."
So it'll be interesting to look at the take rake in a few years.
Neither is ideal, though.
Since us US taxpayers are the bail outers and stake holders, GM et al.,should give each of us a discount for what they say we are EACH on the hook for !!! ?????
It is simple to administer. Get the agreed upon (law) IRS tax credit/s for the year or years, the GM vehicles bought was/were put in service. Since Romney's 47% is already paying little to no taxes,... adjustments. It was easy enough to implement one of the 60,000 units or so "clean diesel IRS $1,500 tax credits", albeit changeable weekly.
Back to diesels...
Seems like the LED headlight facelift is mandatory nowadays.
A very bland facelift, pre-update model was actually more interesting.
Let's hope it is not rumors again. The E250 Bluetec sold in the UK does a respectable 0-62 MPH in 7.5 seconds and uses a miserly amount of ULSD. Rated 47 MPG US combined.
Generally I like LED tube lights over the dotted ones.
I *half* agree.
Selling - YES.
Forecaseting - NO. They underestimated demand and lost potential sales.
I dislike the heavily rounded grille corners more than anything. Very non-traditional, for a maker grounded in tradition.
I'm waiting to see it in person to give it a final verdict. That's a bad angle.