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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

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Comments

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Not crazy about it being built in Mexico...even the TDIs are made there?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,072
    Some might try to fool/tell you that point of assembly doesn't matter - could even be made in China and would be just fine :shades:

    I am pretty sure the previous Golf TDi was built there, can't see a reason this one wouldn't be. The German built Rabbit/Golf seen in NA was unexpected.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The 2014 Leaf gets a price drop, even.

    I did the math, a base model with the still-available $7500 federal tax credit and the $2000 state credit here in MD would cost me just $20,250.

    That's quite a leap of faith, though, to go full EV. It would work for my current situation, but what if my needs change? Li-ion laptop batteries last 5 years max, how will this hold up long-term?

    It is tempting, though. Here at work they have 2 charging stations and the first 100 hours of charging are free. After that it's subsidized so it costs 1/3rd my PEPCO rate at home.

    Again, tempting...would be nice to never see a gas station again.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Last time I did this shopping around (it can take me 5 years to choose BTW), it was for convertibles, and IIRC the VW convertible models were brought over from Germany.

    That was years ago, though. Some times the rare/specialty ones are only made at home.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,072
    I think the Cabrios went back and forth - some Mexico production in the 90s, specialty models like the EOS always have been built in Germany. I am certain Golfs were built in Mexico from the mid 90s onward, but I know around 07 or so, US cars were again made in Germany. Weird, which fits VW sometimes.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Li-ion laptop batteries last 5 years max, how will this hold up long-term?

    That is the biggest question mark for me as well. I think they are warranted for 8 years or 100k miles. Degradation seems to be the biggest complaint on the Leaf. Nissan may be addressing that issue.

    http://green.autoblog.com/2012/12/27/nissan-leaf-battery-warranty-upgraded-first- -capacity-loss/
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Indeed a TDI GTG friendd got a Miata for something like 3,000. I think the only thing that beats that is closer to FREE. He loves it. That car would beat me to death around here in this commute.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited January 2013
    9 bars out of 12...

    Imagine your car had a 12 gallon gas tank, yet it only started taking 10 gallons. They're saying that's OK? Way to aim low, Nissan.

    You can see my concern.

    Edit: my best friend's wife works for them, so I should ask if they have S plan pricing or equivalent (she did when she was at Ford).
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    That car would beat me to death around here in this commute

    DC roads suck and that's probably the #1 thing that has me looking elsewhere. #2 is range.

    I priced a 16" wheel and tire package, but with the TPMS it ends up costing a small fortune.

    I should find another owner who wants to trade for a 17" set.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited January 2013
    http://www.jeepgarage.org/f73/2014-grand-cherokee-ordering-information-and-prici- - ng-52937.html#.UQBGT3kXGLc.facebook

    2. Limited 4X4 - MSRP $37,595 ($36,192) + $995 destination

    with 3.0L V6 TURBO DIESEL ENGINE (EXF) + 8-SPD AUTO 8HP70 TRANS (DFD) 22H (Late Availabilty) [MSRP $4,500 / INV. $ 4,005]


    By my math that's $43,090 for the cheapest diesel. Boo.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    We were just talking about this:

    VW plans Golf push in Americas with shift to Mexico

    Read more: http://www.autonews.com/article/20130125/OEM/301259868#ixzz2J1fdicFt
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    You can thank your elected and NON elected government representatives. That WSJ article speaking of $9 k or so for "compliance" costs probably wasn't too far off. You can get 3 Miatas just for the cost of (diesel) compliance. :sick: :lemon:
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    You can see my concern.

    Lithium Ion batteries have been my concern for a long time. Several burnt up Prius with the Plugin after market batteries. Sony Li-ion battery recall catching laptops on fire. I wonder how Toyota is making out with their batteries in the Plugin Prius??

    Thanks for the pricing on the Jeep GC. I figured it would be close to $50k configured nicely. $4500 over the V6 gasser is a bit much. It looks like Mercedes only dings the buyer $1900 for the diesel over the V6 gas model. The GC will have to be a mighty nice vehicle to compete with the ML350 Bluetec. They are priced very close.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited January 2013
    Maybe Jeep will offer incentives? Fiat may have extra production if Europe's economy tanks.

    Look at all the Fiskers that burned up.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    You mean the Fiskers that caught fire in the Sandy storm?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yes, there are probably more...
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "The new racing program, supported by Mazda engineers in Japan and North America, aims to publicize a 2.2-liter turbodiesel engine that is one element of the company’s Skyactiv strategy to improve efficiency. The plan lifts a page out of the playbook that Audi has used so successfully at the 24 Hours of Le Mans: using racing to demonstrate the engine’s mettle and to increase awareness of diesel’s benefits."

    For Mazda, It’s Diesels at Daytona (NY Times)
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2013
    I tend to severely discount the "real world" racing aspect. in the case of the turbo diesel engine (actually gasser racers also), however beneficial the advertising potential. I realize it is the generations old "race on Sunday, on Monday principle. SkyActiv (gassers) has been too long in coming for Mazda. I think they are trying to fold the 2.2 L turbo diesel into that branding. The article did not state the torque nor the reliability and durability issues , but I think the MB 2.2 L turbo diesels sets a very high bar @ 369 # ft of torque.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Makes sense, fewer pit stops. That's sort of what I want.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2013
    "Makes sense, fewer pit stops. "

    VW T:

    1. TDI 27.6 mpg (using Fueleconomy.gov) = 543 gals/*= 21 yearly stops

    2. TDI 30 mpg (anecdotal real world) = 500 gals/*= 20 yearly stops

    3. Hybrid 20 mpg gasser (using Fuelly.com)= 750 gals/*= 29 yearly stops

    4. gasser 19 mpg (using Fuelly.com) = 789 gals= 31 yearly stops

    (*/26 gals (26.4 gals oem stated capacity) @ 15,000 miles per year, upper average US driver)
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited January 2013
    Pit stops would mean a lot more to me in a race than on the road. I have to take them at least once an hour whether my car needs one or not. :shades:

    Extended fuel ranges would be nice on some of the end of the road trips we've done over the years. You could do the Haul Road nonstop (414 miles), but I'm not passing up Coldfoot in any event.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2013
    It would seem you agree with my separation of race activities vs the real world.

    IF one looks behind the numbers, given the same/same/same fuel CAPACITY (26/26.4 gals oem ratings VW T), basically the gasser HAS to stop a min of 55% (app) more than the TDI.
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    When it comes to durability of an engine, Mazda did the same thing with the rotory engine, they raced it won races with it, however, we all know what happened with durability of the engine.... We all know what happened with real world gas mileage too... However, Audi set the bar with the TDI race car, I believe Mazda is doing the same thing here as Audi. Diesels have been known the in past for their reliability of lasting 300K miles. Which I think is one of the avenues Mazda needs to use to sell their diesel here in the states. Another hurdle is the engine noise of a diesel engine, which has been quieted down a lot. If Mazda can so this they will have a big winner on their hands.

    BTW, has anyone seen the projected MPG of the Mazda6 with the Skyactive D engine yet?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited January 2013
    their reliability of lasting 300K miles

    We've been through this before and I don't recall seeing anything showing that passenger diesel engines are any more reliable than gassers. Semis yeah, but not passenger cars and trucks. Not many people drive their cars twenty years either (maybe Gagrice?) or do as many miles in a decade as Ruking appears to do. And lots of other stuff will likely die before then anyway.

    "Mazda said users can expect 43 miles per gallon highway" at the Geneva Auto Show almost two years. (thecarsreport.com)

    Not sure if that will be the same number in the States or if that quote was for the European market. Maybe someone can find something more recent.

    An Edmunds blurb last week on Mazda 6 fuel economy numbers just said "Mazda did not provide fuel economy numbers on the 2014 Mazda 6 with the Skyactiv-D 2.2-liter clean diesel engine that will debut in the second half of the year."
  • coontie66coontie66 Member Posts: 110
    Just wondering why VW has a measly 3yr/36K warranty if the engine will go 300,000? Even GM warranties go to 5 yrs and 100K? What about BMW and MB?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited January 2013
    I was referring to racing, but city range is an important criteria for my fun hatch, too.

    The supercharged V6 may compare more closely to the discontinued V10 diesel. Edit: 17-19 mpg on fuelly.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited January 2013
    Selling extended warranties is a profit center for dealers. I bet dealers lobby against long warranties.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think the long warranties are only handed out as a selling gimmick. Like Hyundai started and can't stop. Even the B2B extended warranties leave out a lot of stuff. Something I found out when my windshield washer tank started leaking. Cost me $258 as it was not covered. Nissan considers that a wear item for some unknown reason. You have to rip the fender off to get at it. I was not happy about that. I will ask for a detailed list of things not covered before I ever buy another extended warranty.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    It is almost funny, but the list of what they DO NOT cover is LONGER than their pledge to cover EVERTHING, .... BUT (all caps BIG BUT).
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2013
    I am really not sure how to answer that question. The oldest 03 Jetta TDI I own only has 180,000 miles and (seemingly) is @ the best mpg that it has gotten. It is STILL going strong and has been almost boring. Now as I remember it only had a 4 year 60,000 miles warranty if you think that made any difference.

    On a GM car (2001), an extended warranty I purchased (first and last I will buy) paid for a computer chip blowing. The premium was more than the cost to fix the computer chip (integral to the engine and drive trans running) .

    Some one else will have to chime in for BMW and MB.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited January 2013
    I remember when VW had 2/24 warranties; don't think it was that long ago.

    But yeah, any factory drivetrain warranty in the US these days should be 5/60 just to be competitive with everyone else.

    Us cheapskates pay attention to that stuff; one factor in deciding to get our '89 Voyager was because Chrysler was offering a 7/70 drivetrain warranty at the time. Probably saved me $3,000 too, after 3 head gasket jobs.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Hyundai only transfers the 5/60 portion so unless it is the original owner it's not really 100k mile coverage.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    should be able to go a minimum of 100,000 miles before the first major tune. Anything that falls short of that and one is not as "cheapskate" as one thinks. ;)
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Amen.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    So in that sense, it makes sense to figure out the mpg, etc, in multiples of 100,000 miles and or "major" tunes.

    So for example as a "projection" (given I have gotten 30 mpg average over 18,000 miles on a VW T) I can expect to use 3,333.3 gals over 100,000 miles with 30 mpg. Similarly, I can expect to use 4,348 gal for a gasser (VWT, aka, like model) In this like model example, the gasser uses 1,015 gals more over= 30.4% more fuel @ 23 mpg.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited January 2013
    Well, if you had told me in 1999 that I would have burned 4,664 gallons of gas by 2004 in my minivan, I might have gotten a scooter. :shades:

    My spreadsheet got goofy and I have to re-enter the last two years one of these days, but I think I'm around 7,000 gallons now (182k).

    The new Monroney stickers will give you an estimate of annual fuel costs, so that's pretty handy. The EPA assumes $3.70 a gallon for gas and $3.90 for diesel.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    As someone who keeps religious records of their mileage and has determined who in my area are blatant crooks when it comes to altering pump readouts (I am THIS close to taking them to task/court) I have also determined that a LOT of gas evaporates in my car sitting there in the south yard with that hot summer sun beating down on it....so much so that I have started to park it out of the sun and have noticed a noteworthy reduction of evaporation.

    Diesel owners simply don't have to think outside the box in this regard..
    I imagine that very very very few people realize this, and maybe even more won't believe it unless they check it out for themselves..
    The proof works best for someone who doesn't drive much in the summer..at least not using 4 wheels, but 2..that's me. Took me literally years before I came to this realization (the evaporation levels being way more significant than I ever imagined) so just another feather in the cap for owning a diesel..Too bad they will probably charge a huge premium for the engine upgrade. Makes the financial stretch that much harder to justify for those who drive few miles a year...evaporation and torque notwithstanding...

    Something to chew on.. I'm mentioning mainly to share my findings and offer a head's-up to those who can park under a carport or in the shade...or even park more in the east than the west..
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited January 2013
    The way I heard it, your fuel system is "sealed" so you are not supposed to have any fuel evaporating unless there's something wrong with the tank or EVAP system.

    Here's the Wikipedia blurb:

    "Since 1971, all U.S. vehicles have had fully sealed fuel systems that do not vent directly to the atmosphere; mandates for systems of this type appeared contemporaneously in other jurisdictions. In a typical system, vapors from the fuel tank and carburetor bowl vent (on carbureted vehicles) are ducted to canisters containing activated carbon. The vapors are adsorbed within the canister, and during certain engine operational modes fresh air is drawn through the canister, pulling the vapor into the engine, where it burns."

    Can't test your theory here (even it wasn't ~20 degrees :) ) since I park in a garage.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2013
    Gagrice has gone over this issue/point in more than once post on this diesel thread. The fact of the matter is there IS still evaporation. What it is , is beyond a state secret,.... and for reasons that should be obvious. Needless to say ethanol (alcohol) is even MORE prone to evaporation, even as it gets 25% LESS mpg than RUG to PUG. To add if you will insult to injury, there is a CA state (that I am familiar with anyway) smog only (normal smog also) that pressure checks the fuel system.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    My Sequoia sits most of the time in the Garage. After a long time not being driven it seems that tank is lower MPG than out on the road trip. So I don't know if it is evaporation or deterioration of our crap CA gas. I can see a sealed tank sitting out in the sun getting hot and overcoming the pressure cap that is supposed to seal the tank.

    Diesel will not evaporate, but will go bad sitting a long time. I put Power Service in my diesel for the tractor. Never have any starting or other issues.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited January 2013
    The reason they pressure test your system in California it is to make sure the EVAP system is working, right? And iirc, you guys have a lot of pumps with those gasket gizmos to limit vapor loss during refueling. I bet your tanker delivery trucks have a similar system.

    Seems like the amount lost from evaporation in hot weather or hot soak would be a lot less than that lost from loose gas caps or a clogged charcoal cannister.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    I can't say for sure if my evap system is working up to spec but I have suspected this theory with my 2nd last car and have confirmed it with this one, (have had for 5 years now).

    Out of curiosity, just how long can diesel sit and go bad to the point it contaminates the system? I have a storage bus (diesel) that I start a few times per year (non winter months tho) and I don't really want to pull in bad diesel into the the injection pump and injectors. Last fall it's been sitting 2 years and that fuel tank fuel was probably new a few months earlier. Do I need to address this prior to another 5 years from now do you think? If I had to I could syphon and refill. Actually I had considered rerouting to a small 2 gallon tank and maybe I should put that on my priority list as I had heard of plant growth in really old diesel. I imagine in that case it would have to have water and light tho?
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    Still got that Toyota, eh? Ya know..last couple days been reading about Cummins 4BT conversions. That big ol' Sequoia would be a perfect candidate I would think?
    Great project if you think it's a keeper for many more years...since you don't drive it much it sounds like it could last a long long time. Probably get about 26-28 with it? Maybe more..
    270 ftlbs is enough to keep that big slug lively isn't it?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    It is only 5 years old with 30k miles. Still under extended warranty. I really am having a hard time justifying buying myself a $50k diesel SUV. I can buy another rental house and get some ROI. We only take one trip a year of any length and I can live with the 17 MPG on the highway.

    I looked into the Cummins 4BT for my old Ranger PU truck. IT was kind of heavy for the frame of that small truck.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    Ya...that truck (in 4 WD) was on my list of possibles but since ruled it out when I found out the 4BT is the better part of 800 lb wet. I think even an F150 would have to have some sort of frame strengthening too FTM..air ride would handle spring duty. Still a bit heavy tho with 1/2 ton OEM stock wheel bearings etc..

    Yes, given your few miles you do you would never get it back...only reward from being a project. And you'd sure get a look of admiration from me as I pulled up beside you at a light and heard it.

    For a long time I have had a hankering to do a conversion in some form of 4WD P/U. Knowing my luck though I'd just nicely get it all together and some idiot would T-bone me going through the first intersection.. Mr Insurance...."You say you have how much tied up in the engine??"
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    If you have a desire to do a conversion. I did many in my younger days. I am just too lazy to do much more than keep the firewood split and pound on this keyboard. Hiring such things is way more than it is worth. You can buy a cheap delivery van with a 4BT and GM Auto Transmission. Then chop the body and make a cool PU or whatever. They go for cheap.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Out of curiosity, just how long can diesel sit and go bad to the point it contaminates the system?

    Good question - sounds like old fuel can be reconditioned. But you have to watch out for excess water that may overwhelm any filter and there could be some bacterial mess growing in there - the plant growth you mentioned. They make anti-fungal additives for that too.

    Seems like it would be cheaper in the long run to drain the old stuff than risk causing injector or other issues by trying to burn it.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,325
    1. If you have to worry about diesel fuel going bad from sitting too long, you do not need a diesel engine.

    2. I like the idea of diesel, but every time I look at the pros and cons for my particular situation, a regular gasser still comes out on top financially. If I drove 50,000 miles per year a diesel might work.

    3. A natural gas conversion might make more sense than a diesel conversion.

    4. My lawnmower, which I seldom use, just an occasional start up and short run, has sat for years with no measurable gas loss from evaporation. No sealed system of course.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    My old mowers would varnish up if I forgot to run them dry before winter. Now I have a plug-in one.

    Natural gas makes a lot of sense - I think we'll see a lot more "day" truckers using that fuel in the next decade. If you have the fuel set-up at the terminal, and the trucks return every night, it's pretty cost effective to fuel 'em overnight.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2013
    I am not sure why 31( .4 ) mpg on R/T ( both legs of a SLT, CA run) 200 + mile one way 400+ miles run R/T.

    On the way up, kept it @ a "higher" steady, for all but the last 23 miles (10% of the trip where it was snowing cats and dogs (figuratively) and two chain control point were in effect. The mountain passes peak out @ app 7,300 ft. Literally almost white out conditions and stop and go for roughly 23 miles and an hour. To add to the chaos, I saw a CHP SUV advancing very fast @ my six, so I thought I was in his predator gun sights, with full light codes on, so STAYED right as close to the ice solid snow berms as I dared and tried to set him up to PASS. He took the cue and shot past only to have a couple of cars ahead of me literally ignore his lights. Some miles ahead we came upon the accident scene he was rushing to , an over turned and almost totally wrecked car. (this probably belongs in the topic "Inconsiderate Drivers")

    On the way out of Tahoe, we caught the Sunday go home early crowd from Heavenly Valley, SLT, CA ski resort with a 24 mile back up and chain control @ two points. This took app 1.5 hours. The rest of the trip was rolling traffic. I fueled in the flats for 31 (.4) mpg.
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