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This issue also has $300 dollars cash back on certain new Toyotas, sorry not the 4Runner. Here is a link that can at least let you see the cover of the magazine.
http://connectionsfeedback.com/
Thanks for any feedback.
Bigbwb
One question that was raised but not fully answered was how the X-REAS suspension works. The right rear and left front shocks are connected, as are the left rear with the right front. They are connected to allow hydraulic fluid to be passed between them. This means that in a hard corner, as the outside front shock begins to compress, it is given a boost from the opposite end. This increases the pressure and therefore keeps the front end from nose diving in a hard corner.
Exterior: Limited, Well, not tooo bad, but why do the wheel wells that way? SR-5, come on guys, if you want us to buy a Limited, just don't offer the SR-5. It looks GMish and is not befitting the overall quality of this SUV.
Interior: I was amazed that it didn't seem much bigger that my 97 SR-5. The cargo area is smaller. Not being able to put your shoes under the front seats limits the rear seat comfort. The SR-5 interior appointments seem better that before, but not anything special. The Limited leather seems very nice and the overall cabin has a nice feel to it. The thigh support does not appear to have improved.
Driveline: As Mr. Clifford says, "You gotta drive this thing before making a decision". He's right on folks. It drives like a Lexus. After the drive, I wondered why anyone would buy an Infiniti QX4. Smoooth.
Handling: Just a short run, but the highway handling is like a little Lexus.
Underneath: Well, I didn't have my Saturday attire on so I did a cursory inspection, but the skid plates looked a lot weaker than on my 97. Gee, it has 4-wheel disc brakes. Welcome the the 90's, I mean 00's, Toyota.
Summary: This is the 4 Runner that Ford and GM have feared. It's ultra smooth and refined. Lots of nice little features that tend to sell cars. 3rd gen lovers may look elsewhere for a fix, but this 4 Runner has broad appeal and thus will sell and sell and sell.
BTW: X-REAS is available on 2WD.
Happy motoring!
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Mackabee
Mackabee
http://www.vwvortex.com/features/07_02/07_08/touareg_off1.jpg
See, the LEFT (airborn) rear wheel is supposed to touch the ground. The RIGHT rear wheel is supposed to COMPRESS. In the picture, both wheels severely lack any form of articulation.
Sorry, my '02 4Runner has TONS more rear wheel articulation than that! Almost embarrassing that VW is saying this thing can off-road with the best!
Bottom line: the vehicle got through the situation even with one wheel is in the air. Articulation, while important, isn't the only factor in off-roading. You seem to think that if all 4 wheels aren't touching the ground, the vehicle is going to get stuck; not necessarily so...
Before you write it off, why don't we wait for it to be tested by folks in the know. Speaking of which, here's one from 4Car, a UK car rag:
http://www.4car.co.uk/jsp/main.jsp?lnk=231_2&reviewid=561
Here's a quote from page 3 of that link:
<< Most of the time, the Touareg sends half of its power to the front wheels and half to the rear, but the multi-plate clutch in the centre differential can divert up to 100 per cent to one end or the other depending on available grip. The centre diff can be locked manually if needed, and there's an optional second lock for the rear diff which means the Touareg can keep moving even if one rear wheel is the only wheel left with grip. Each wheel's slippage is also controlled automatically, via the brakes, with EDL (Electronic Differential Lock) >>
Bob
And i NEVER said that wheel articulation is the only thing that mattered. Please don't put words in my mouth.
BTW, FYI, multi-plate clutch packs are generally not highly regarded due to the fact it wears down and needs frequent lubrication. Examples: Acura MDX's rear differential, Jeep GC Varilok/quadradrive crap, Honda CRV's rear diff, etc. Here is another fact: most off-roaders prefer GEAR-based differentials due to better durability...guess what "Torsen" is famous for?? Hint: Torsen LSD is gear-based. In off-roading, they make Detroit Truetrac. With regard to Torsen in '03 4Runner, i assume it is gear-based also.
Remember, those same "people in the know" thought the Mercedes ML was the greatest gift to human beings...able to do everything on another level, even off-roading. Well, at least in off-roading, it flunk big time once it was trail-tested against other conventional SUVs!
Yeah, i know, most people will never know the difference. Remember, we're talking about each vehicle's CAPABILITY, not what it will be used for by soccer moms.
http://community-2.webtv.net/GatorGreg5inFL/2ndAnnualBigCRVScrub/scrapbookFiles/mailedD23.jpg
He was stuck. However, notice the rear wheel...how it compresses.
Who cares? The Touareg with limited articulation will probably go any place off road your '02 4Runner can go, and blow your gen3-Runner into the weeds on road. I'd love to see a test of your '02 4Runner against the Touareg, just to shut you up. Unfortunately, it will only be matched against a new '03 4Runner, which I'm sure it will do quite well against.
As far as I'm concerned, the new '04 4Runner (or Touareg) will be as a capable off road as I (or most people) will ever need.
As I stated many posts back we'll just have to agree to disagree. You have your opinions, and I have mine. Now can we get back to 4Runners, afterall this is a 4Runner forum...
Bob
I like the suggestion to agree to disagree and move on.
Steve, Host
What dealer and state?
Rsholland, so you admit it...IRS is very limited in ability. The only thing that makes it any capable is the other systems (traction control systems, torque, etc.), which is present on most SUVs today.
Steve, please re-read my posts above...and try to comprehend the arguments presented here. Rsholland and I are debating (at least i think we are) about IRS vs. solid axle in off-roading. He pointed out the limited '03 4Runner rear axle travel (he started it!)...and now i am pointing out the embarrassing wheel travel of his hero, VW Touareg.
Ok...i won't mention this again IF it is not brought up again.
Bob
Steve, Host
Just wondering if anyone in Canada ordering an new 2003 4-Runner below MSRP. Went to a couple of dealer, none of them seem to offer any discount?
thanks
Mike
Being new, some dealers may deal while most won't. I say hang on awhile or do your home work. I remember buying a Honda in 1980 from another state, not to save money, but simply to find one. It worked out pretty well. I try to buy from a local dealer if I can.
Oh yes if you want to get to Jim Barkely Toyota or Carson Toyota you will have to figure out their web site since I probably can't post it, but if you know their names it wouldn't be hard to figure out. Also you may want to try your local dealer's web site or simply go by and visit, I don't think this is exactly a sellers market, I believe deals will come, maybe not right away, but they should come.
I talked to a dealer today and he said Toyota could make a midyear revision IF they get enough complaints about it.
GO TO toyota.com, then to contact us section, then to FAQ, then EMAIL TOYOTA and TELL THEM YOU DO NOT LIKE THE GRAY CLADDING ON THE SR5. TELL THEM YOU WOULD BE MORE LIKELY TO PURCHASE IT IF IT WERE BODY COLORED CLADDING(LIKE THE LIMITED). IF THEY GET ENOUGH EMAILS, HOPEFULLY THEY WILL CHANGE IT AND GIVE US A CAR WE WOULD LIKE TO LOOK AT WHEN WE BUY!!! Thanks guys!!
Anyone else feel the same way? Also, this is an apples/oranges comparision, but with the CR-V or Pilot the seating positions are more upright and comfortable. Maybe this has something to do with a car vs truck platform.
Thanks for the xreas explanantion. Any first hand knowledge or educated guesses about how it might effect offroad performance (articulation), positively or negatively?
Chris, Peter and Steve:
Thanks for the clarification of the ground rules. Yes the dealer I went to, was indeed Jim Barkley Toyota. Very impressed with the sales staff, pricing policy and selection. That said their no hassle pricing might mean that you won't get your absolute best deal there when discounts become more widely available.
Aufan:
Nice pickup on how to influence Toyota. Will be going to they're site next. Here's an idea that might not work (too expensive?), but has the best of both body cladding options in my mind.... First lose the notched fenders, then how about color keyed cladding that still retains the matte finish/textured surface of the grey suff now? It would still be chip/scratch resistant, but wouldn't be so reminiscent of a Pontiac Aztek/Chevy Avalanche. Just a thought.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
As we all know, Toyota and other SUV brands have put a tow limit of 1000 pounds on any trailer that is lacking trailer brakes. We also know that most states require trailer brakes over a certain weight. With that in mind, my state (Maryland), requires trailer brakes on any trailer over 3000 pounds. The 3000 pound state limit is probably the most common limit imposed by most (although not all) states.
Okay, that leaves a 2000 pound descrepency between what Toyota requires (1000 pounds) and the state of Maryland (3000 pounds). Is it possible (or realistic) for Toyota (or any brand) to offer either: A) larger brakes, as part of a tow package, that could make up the 2000 pound brake descrepency? Or, put an extra set of calibers on the brakes, that would only activate when the trailer is hooked up, using the 7-pin plug once the wire is plugged in, as a trigger to activate the extra brake calibers? Or, C), a combination of both A & B?
I would think some sort of a solution like this would make a lot of sense. It seems doable to me, but I'm not an engineer...
Bob
It couldn't possibly be too expensive to switch the production process over to another type of cladding which they are already using on some models.
It almost looks like if you had a minimal amount of skill with a screw driver you could pop that cladding off and switch it out...thus it couldn't possibly be too complicated for Toyota to do it somewhere along the production line!
You're after surface area which equals heat disipation. One may increase the surface area of a disc brake through either increasing the outside diameter of the disc, or decreasing the hub diameter of the disc. If you increase the outer diameter you need larger rims, and if you decrease the hub diameter, well, that will require your wheel hub to be smaller, which probably isn't very likely. ( there are of couse slotted and drilled rotors for increasing surface area, gassing of the pads, and increased air flow, but you can only do so much).
adding extra set of calipers
Bad idea because you will very quickly liquify your discs. Not to mention that even when the other calipers are not engaged, the disc will not be able to loose heat as rapidly because the extra set of calipers are in the way blocking radiation.
D) No matter how good the vehicle can brake, the trailer will still be pushing the rear end forward (and if not in a perfectly straight line, which they are not, it will be pushing the rear end AROUND to the front). Actually adding better brakes to the vehicle itself could be even worse as the vehicle now has the ability to stop faster and that trailer doesn't want to. Must add trailer brakes.
As you know, I do a lot of towing. I did tow a smaller aluminum boat that probably weighed 1200 to 1500 when loaded with gas and equipment. I didn't have brakes on the trailer and owned a T100. Stopping wasn't a real problem but did require more forethought when approaching an intersection.
I now own a boat that weighs 4200 on the trailer. I opted for disc brakes on BOTH axles. It isn't required to have this set up, nor did my boat dealer think I needed it. Without the dual brake set up, I'm sure I wouldn't suffer and it would not be unsafe. With the dual brake, I actually can almost stop faster when towing than when I am not. Surge brakes do work quite well.
Bad idea because you will very quickly liquify your discs. Not to mention that even when the other calipers are not engaged, the disc will not be able to loose heat as rapidly because the extra set of calipers are in the way blocking radiation. >>
I was under the impression that some race cars use extra brake calibers, per brake. I figured if it works for competition vehicles, it could perhaps work on everyday vehicles too. Am I wrong?
<< Must add trailer brakes >>
No question; just trying to figure out a way to bridge the 2000 pound gap here in Maryland, and in most states, between what Toyota requires and what the state(s) require.
Thanks for your input.
Bob
My concern, apart from safety, is the liability issue. If you should cause an accident, and was operating the vehicle and trailer outside of the manufacturer's recommendations, while still being within the state's limitations, you may(?) be putting yourself at risk, in terms of claims, either by you, or someone trying to sue you.
Bob
1) When both axles have equal traction, (static situation) the torque split is 40% front/60% rear
2) When the front wheels begin to slip, the difference in torque causes up to 70% of the torque to be sent to the rear wheels
3) When the rear wheels slip, up to 53% of the torque is directed to the front wheels
The Limited had the X-REAS suspension on it but not the air suspension. It also had a "FO" option which was a sport bumper trim package for $599. Is this something the dealer adds or is it a Toyota option?
Now to the outside, it has not grown on us thus far, even without the cladding, the squared off fenders leave us feeling like we are driving a GM product. I guess that when I purchase a vehicle for big $$, I need to love the outside appeal as well. Until I start seeing more on the road and visually accepting this angular looking rig, I will continue to happily drive my 1999 SR5. I love Toyota products,but, with a hefty price tag, I will wait and see if this new design will grow on us anytime in the near future???
Because the 2003 has a telescoping steering wheel, tall drivers have an option that they didn't before. The can move the seat back all the way, lower it all the way and recline it until their head doesn't hit the roof. In the 2002, you couldn't do this and still reach the steering wheel. You can now. It makes a huge difference.
Hopefully for the rest of those concerned, you'll have your option for color-keyed cladding sometime sooner than later . . . I like the color-impregnated and color-keyed idea as well.
Good luck; c-ya on the dark (and Superblack) side of the Edmund boards!
They have it sitting at the front of the lot, so everyone that drives by on the highway can see it. Well it's been there since the day they got it, which was the same day all other dealers got their 4Runners. It hasn't sold yet.
This isn't a big town, only about 40,000 or so, but they are the only Toyota dealership within 35 miles or so.
I figured it would be gone within a day, or just a few days at most....
This is true for several local dealers, although with the others, I have seen '03s coming and going...sports and limiteds mainly. I have yet to see in person a base SR5.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I looked the vehicle over but didn't test drive it or talk price since it did not have the rear air suspension I want. They also had a funky looking brush guard on the front bumper for $799 I didn't like. Otherwise, for the most part, I really liked it inside and out. I looked at a Sport, but did not like the cladding. The salesman couldn't find the other one, an SR5, but I'm not really interested in it anyway.
I am still seriously interested, but haven't decided if or when to buy yet. If the V8s aren't selling well maybe Toyota will offer the 0% financing or cash back by Christmas. Wonder how much cheaper the V6 will be? Also, I was very surprised to find that my '01 Highlander has a larger payload rating than the '03 Runner. That's odd. My other big concern is a review I recently read that mentions that the new Runner "wanders" a bit--something I hate since I do a fair amount of long distance driving. I really like vehicles that track well. A test drive might answer that one.
I was prepared to go look at some other dealers today and take a test drive, but most of them within a days drive of me only list "2003 4Runner" on their sites--little or no information on model, options, color or price--so I stayed home.
I expected them to sell quickly in a town of 250k + people.
A salesman told me saturday that there would only be about a $500 difference (if that) between the V8 and V6 engines.
I can only hope that sales are the pitts--maybe then they will make a change in the cladding look! YUCK!
Then... all heck broke loose. It took about 4 to 6 weeks for consumers to fully realize what had happened to the Runner. Once the masses found out, demand far outstripped supply and this went on for about 18 months.
The same pattern seems to be happening again. I hope.