Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Options
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
I think that sums it up pretty well. I would find the information useful and you are not willing to part with it so it's ultimately an impasse. In the end, necessity on your part and mine will eventually produce an exchange.
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper
http://www.phs-online.com/window%20sticker%20information.htm
No offense to any of the sales people on this board-but I can't even begin to imagine what games SOME DEALERS would play without even the window sticker as a guide.
Yikes. What kind of fancy cars are you buying? For me, that range would be the total cost of the car.
I'd like to get an idea of price within a few hundred rather than a few thousand. That's why the huge differences between books is so annoying.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
I don't think so. I bought a new car in January that was built the previous May. It sat SOMEWHERE all that time and was fine.
How many miles on the car? I would rather have one that had been sitting for months than one a bunch of yahoos had been "test driving". Not to mention the unspeakable acts that might have been committed by salespeople.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
If you buy and sell strictly on a price guide for these "non-tracked cars", you're going to make a mistake.
They are only meant to give you a "ballpark". If you gave me a make model year car that your book says is worth $5,000, I can probably show you ads for the same car at $2,500 and $7,500, and they won't be all that different from each other.
So yes, you and I could conceivably buy the same car in similar condition with one of us paying double what the other paid, especially an older model.
This has been my experience, at any rate.
Same reason already discussed. Sometimes you take a trade in and you either put to much money into it because it is cherry or when you did the works check you you had a bunch of hidden things you couldn't see on the appraisal :sick:
At least at my dealer we perform a works check to know what it needs. Half the time after that we will wait to sell the vehicle to perform the work. If it doesn't sell we send to the mill.
GP
No worries there. Tires can become "scalloped" which means they get a flat spot on the tire from sitting on it to long. I wouldn't worry about a car that has been there since May.... I have seen new vehicles sit for year and sometimes longer :sick:
GP
Thank youfor the link.... I would like to add a few things.
The way it was explained to me was that Senator Maroney also was a dealership owner. And after WW2 there were dealerships advertising vehicles. They would mark up the vehicles for twice the amount they were worth. In the add they would reduce the price and still have hefty profit.
Mr. Maroney felt that it was ubfair to his business and also unfair to the public. That was the reasoning behind the Maroney label.
GP
Although, how desireable is the car if its been sitting for that long?
Dealers and their customers are no different, the customers are trying to save (or make) only and the dealers are doing the same, although the dealers are generally the ones assuming 100% of the risk. How often do you hear dealers complaining about being ripped off by a customer who did not disclose that his/her vehicle had been wrecked or had a bad title? It is ok for dealers to make money, unfortunately some of them just go about it the wrong way.
Knowing what similar cars a going over the block for is helpful. It establishes something of a bottom dollar range. I figure that is the least the dealer may expect if he can not sell the car otherwise. I figure if my offer is sufficiently above that range, it is reasonable that I expect that what I am willing to pay is possibly acceptable to the dealer. It is not my problem if that means the dealer loses on the deal or makes a little.
1. Determine the actual condition of the vehicle--average, clean, very clean, exceptional
2. Consult at LEAST 3 online price guides (easy to find 3)
3. Do an advanced search on autotrader and plug in miles and geography and various inclusions/exclusions, so that your comps are equal cars. Do a nationwide search, then look at the bottom for the "average price" of your searches. If you got 100 hits, that average price is going to be a pretty good benchmark.
4. Compare the benchmark average price with your price guides, again paying particular attention to condition and options. If your benchmark comparable pricing is way lower than the average of your 3 price guides for a "clean" car let's say, then the price guides are wrong and need adjustment on that make/model***
***This doesn't happen often but it does happen. For instance, price guides didn't have time to adjust to the $4 gas prices.
THEN yes, you can hit it within $500---$1,000 I think.
I suppose one could argue that whether the vehicle had been wrecked or not is none of the dealer's business and he either sees value in the vehicle or he does not.
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper
Even without a history report (which aren't foolproof) a good appraiser can almost always spot prior damage.
And, yes, we do see value in previously wrecked cars. It's called diminished value!
If the damage wasn't severe, we will carefully inspect these cars and resell them. We disclose to the buyer that there was an accident reported. This scares some away and others don't care.
He made sure that full size trucks over 3/4 ton were exempt from the legislation.
I think he had an interest in a truck dealer.
Anyway, it wasn't until a few yrs ago that those trucks had to conform.
Even today, those big trucks don't post EPA mileage on the sticker.
Do you think they will increase over the Columbus day weekend, or the second half of the month? ???? Don't see how Chrysler would increase prices when the vans are not moving off the lots...
No.... Manufacturers put their incentives out at the begining of the month. Chrysler probably sold enough units last mont where they don't need to have as much of a incentive :sick:
GP
I don't think its an issue of having sold enough cars.
Volvo's incentives went down as well.
We are coming to the end of the year, the motor co's are out of cash and they realize that they just can't buy enough business to make it worthwhile.
Bingo. I posted about this in the thread about the credit crunch... They're all going to miss their numbers for the year of 2008--some more so than others. Subsidized leases are dead, and I don't see any true bargains on the purchase incentives. The manufacturers can only incentivize so much, and it looks like they've reached the breaking point. I mean, you can put a $15,000 incentive on a $20,000 car, but you'll be taking a huge loss in order to prop up your sales figures.
If its desirable for you then its desirable regardless of how long it's been sitting there.
What I would be worried about is the ones that have been sitting there that long with a hugh discount.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Many cars sit in inventories for that long or even longer. I wouldn't worry about it.
The fact that it has been "exposed to a hot summer" is not different than if someone owned it and parked it outside for the whole summer. It's not made out of chocolate and it won't melt.
The cars in dealers' inventories get moved around routinely anyways, and some get test driven. Plus it still has full warranty so should any of the gaskets or seals fail (chances are they won't), then you're covered.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
so far, after 7 months, the only things i noticed that suffered are that some trim on the trunk does not seem to be attached a tightly as it should, and the dash was kind of dried out. i have treated the dash enough that it doesn't look as dull anymore.
the closest dealer had 5 of the same exact car on their lot. ok, one had a spoiler.
when it got down to 3 after many months, and the 08's in local inventory were all optioned up enough to be about 3k more msrp, i decided to see if i could make a deal on an early '07.
i also have a 17 year old car, so the age thing doesn't worry me too much.
Desirable?
Put the right price on it.
Its desirable.
I mean c'mon-if something weighs three tons do you need a sticker to tell you that you are going to get horrible mileage?
Put the right price on it.
Its desirable.
I don't know about that. Many years ago the wife and I were looking for a new car and were considering a SUV and we ended up on the lot of a Honda dealer. The salesman told me he could get me a wonderful deal on a CR-V and took me to the back lot. There in all its glory was the most hedious looking thing on wheels. This thing was totally pimped out with ground effect lighting, a fuzzy dashboard, a wing on the back and a paint job that was unbelievable. I asked the salesman about the history of the car and all he knew was that they took it in as a dealer trade sight unseen, And yes it was brand new.
Trust me when I say there was no "right" price on that car. IIRC his first offer was something like 25% off MSRP to which I replied "Are you going to give me that to take it off your hands?"
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Good point VMAX,
I have to agree :shades: .... Something I was thinking about today, especially in a challenging "financing industry"... I think we should be able to hold more gross on the front end because it is going to be harder to get the financing. In my experience in the last couple of years most of the money made sales was made on the back end of the vehicle. It now makes more sense to me from a business stand point to make up the difference on the front end.....
Just a thought after I got my large turbo ice coffee. Maybe it was the caffeine but if all dealers could get on board it would be a positive thing for salesman :shades:
GP
Well I can understand that... Everyone wants the best for them selves. But lets just say that continues to happen right now. If you are buying from a dealership there must be something you see as value in the dealership. Whether it is close to your home for service, the salesman will assist you in your service making sure you get to work or home after you drop pff your vehicle. I could go on forever.
My point is if consumers keep beating dealerships. The dealership won't be able to survive. It won't be able to pay the bills ( very expensive running a dealership) It will have to cut back on pay plans ( this is happening every where in the country) But more importantly it won't be able to afford good help. And that I think is very inmportant. Now these dealers that you bought from won't have knowledgable sales people for when you have questions down the road. They won't be able to hire experienced trained mechanics. And worse case scenario that dealership you bought from may have to close it doors and now you have to travel further for your maimtanace.
Just a few thoughts.... I am not stating that people should be taken advantage of but at lease offer $1000 over invoice.
Think of it like this.... I always here people say I want you to make some profit (and when you buy a $20k,$30, $40k vehcile you think well I am spending that much they must be getting paid very well.
Well when consumers grind down to invoice or less chance are the sales person is probably going to make $100 or less.... On average lets say a salesperson does 15 vehicles a month, all at a mini commision $100... that would be $1500 per month
That would be $375 per week before taxes and benefits.... Now on average sales people work 60 hours a week. Not much to live on. I know this is not the consumers problem But just shedding some light on the issue. We talk a lot about how here how the same sales person who sold the their orginal vehicle is gone with in 6 months... Well now mybe you can understand.
OK Rant over and thanks for reading and not scrolling by :surprise:
GP
Also, there will be fewer incentives so less monkey business w/ pricing.
You just have to hope your store survives.
The mileage declaration may be an EPA issue.
However, trucks were exempt form Monroney laws for a long time.
If you're good at what you do and you're dealership is honest, you'll survive. Things have been bad before, and this'll be all but a memory in about a year. The credit situation will just keep the people who shouldn't be buying anyway out of the market, no biggie. The cash buyers and good credit buyers won't be affected by too many changes. Unfortunately, all of us "in the biz" will probably have to put up with more arrogant customers who think they have us by the b@lls becuase of everything thats going on.
I think to some consumers (like the knowledgeable ones here at Edmunds) the quality salesperson does not make a difference, as they pretty much know what they want, know a thing or two about cars, and know how much they want to pay for them. They don't need a sales consultant advising them what fits their budget and lifestyle. But I believe these kinds of customers represent a small slice of the market (10%-20%?).
The quality of sales staff overall will deteriorate at the same pace as their pay plans. As my old manager used to say "You pay peantus, you'll get monkeys"
We see this with almost all consumer products nowadays. Everyone wants more for less. More quantity, more features, more stuff, even if the difference in quality is not that noticeable. Hence you have manufacturers of consumer goods cutting back on quality, producing cheap quality electronics, appliances, toys, and selling them at a lower price than the next guy. Notice how most Japanese electronics (or cars) are not made in Japan anymore?
People still buy it all up because it's more stuff for less money, until we hit that point were sub par quality and service is so obvious that we remind ourselves how "they don't make them like they used to" or "customer service is not what it used to be".
Well we got to that point by voting for lower quality, and lousier service with our consumer dollars. Nothing more, nothing less. We all wanted more content for less and although we did get more, something had to give at the back end, whether it's quality, research, longevity of a product, customer service (let's replace our call centre staff with an automated talking computer to answer question, so we can save $XXXXXX, or let's cut back on training, and hire these newbies foe less).
Basically you get what you pay for, and if Joe and Jane Carbuyers vote with their dollars that a super low price is more important to them than a knowledgeable sales person, then we might just see the AutoWalmarts pop up soon. :lemon:
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
The same people decrying the loss of American jobs to overseas are the ones who shop at Walmart. We have done this to ourselves.
LOL...
Right???
I can't remember what my actual question was but... I think I was trying to state a point. Point being with all this competition some dealers will fall and some will stand. But with less competeition I believe buyers will be paying more in the end. Everything goes through cycles. Right now I would say the auto business is in the down cycle.... along with everything else :lemon: The good news is there is only one way to go and that is up. Now I don't believe the car market has bottomed out yet but I believe the end is near.
Now I am not college educated or anything, just street smarts And common sense helps too.
Thanks for replying.
GP
I may be wrong but it appears that congress made a decision basically in two weeks to $700 billion plus :sick:
I have to say it is bogus and the only things I hear that have changed is some Reps. got "sweetners" for their people to sway their vote????? I guess Barney Frank was right when he asked "who are these people who didn't vote?"... "I'll go tell them nice things to change their vote" :lemon:
It appears to me that everything packed together in one vote. I think it should have been one thing at a time.
Concerned in Boston
GP
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper
Actually I do see value in buying from a new car dealership. All my used cars have been purchased from new car stores. They tend to have the lower milage units and I believe they have some sort of reputation to maintain. Therefore, I'd like to think that I'm going to get a better car there than at some BHPH lot that may be gone tomorrow.
I did overpay a little on my last new car because I was thinking just what you said about the possibility of the dealership going bye-bye and having to search for service. That may have been a dumb fiscal move on my part but I have carried the curse of empathy most of my life.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
I paid OVER RETAIL for a recon'd Subaru but you know I've had to put ZERO into it.
I submitted this to congress and they told me they would give you tax credit of $175 this year... That was the only way I would vote aye
GP
We went Tuesday (after having an overnight test drive) and said we wanted the vehicle. We put down $100 earnest money (or whatever it's called) and left our financing papers there at the dealership. (We brought in our own financing. Don't ask me why my better half left our papers there.) As far as I understood, they said they had to verify our financing, run our credit, and a few repairs needed to be made. I also asked for a list of the work they had done on the car since they acquired it.
As of Thursday, we hadn't heard from them. When we called, the finance guy offered us financing they arranged, with a higher interest rate, which supposedly we would want because it would be "faster." We declined, and said we'd be using our own financing -- you know, the stuff we left there Tuesday? He said he had to verify the LTV Ratio and get that approved. Meanwhile, the salesman said they didn't do the fixes because they were waiting on the loan stuff and he didn't know how long it would take to get the parts. He said it could take WEEKS to get the funds from our loan company, and he thought we'd be okay with waiting. When I told him a) we hadn't signed the paperwork yet, so that's not what we were waiting for anyway and b) the loan company said once we signed, funds would be deposited in 24-48. Then he feigned ignorance and said that was the finance guy's problem, who was conveniently out of the office.
Fast forward to Saturday, we call finance again, what is going on, he hasn't done the LTV yet. He'll do it and call us. Which he finally did today to tell us how much our financing would pay and what we'd need to pay ourselves. And of course, the work it needs hasn't been done yet.
Is this acceptable? It seems like they've just been stalling, since from Tuesday-Saturday, they've done essentially nothing but sit on our money and our paperwork. I want to walk, my husband doesn't. I don't think it bodes well for the rest of the purchase or any future interaction we may have to have with them. And I'm not happy that it seems like my time has been wasted and they can't explain it in a way that makes any sense.
Opinions? :mad:
What kind of repairs are needed to be done on the vehicle?
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
The main repair were the struts on the tailgate, which don't work at all. (If you open the tailgate and let go, the full weight of the tailgate just comes crashing back down.)
The dealer has no assurances that the money won't bounce back until roughly 10 days have passed. They are protecting their interests and making sure that they get all the money and keep it.
That's my take on the whole matter. I don't think the repairs are a big problem at all. It's your money that is holding things up. Financing with the dealership may raise your payment a little, but it is MUCH simpler than using one of these "draft" checks.
Hope that helps.
For my part, I don't want to officially sign for the vehicle until I know if/when the strut repair will be done, and until I got the papers detailing what was done to recondition the vehicle. (I just got that today, finally.)
(Financing with the dealer wouldn't raise our payment a little. It would lower the payment, but double the term, and the interest rate was higher, resulting in thousands of dollars of extra charges. Simpler for someone, maybe, but not in our best interest, is it?)
Just my 2 cents...
When you say you are doing your own Financing, from the description it sounds like you are financing through Capitol One :sick: .... from experience they are a pain to work with from a dealers point of veiw and it is never as easy as it seems :lemon: Cap One says it will be there in 24 hours but it will be 24 hours when Cap one is ready...
Any how getting back to your question about them not working on the vehicle... Well I can understand that to a degree but they should have been more up front... Practice here at my store on used vehicles is sometimes we don't perform the work until they are bought. From your story you haven't paid cash for the vehicle or signed up for financing through said dealership. so tha may be the reason they haven't performed the work yet. I would secure financing and give the dealership proof (maybe a deposit af a $1000 or more) that you are buying the vehicle and tell them to start the repairs it needs. So to me it doesn't sound like they are trying to ruin your day, believe me they want to sell the vehicle Just hang in there and good luck
GP