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  • volvomaxvolvomax Member Posts: 5,238
    The 2 most accurate sources are the Manheim Auction Report and the Black Book.
    Neither of which is available to the consumer.
    Problem is, there is no way to definitively state used car value.
    A trade is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it at a given time.
    Even using Manheim and Black Book a dealer can still overpay for a trade or used car. Happens all the time.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Yes, it does happen.

    We want to make a sale so we take a deep breath and pay more for the trade than we really want to.

    As an example, I'll tell a story about a Volvo I took in a couple of years ago.

    No offense to my friend Volvomax, but Volvos can be quirky and this one was no exception. It was an S-80 and it looked and seemed to run fine. Miles were about average as I recall and it was a bad color. The couple trading it in waved reams of printouts in our faces and threatened to walk out. We couldn't get ahold of the Volvo store for a buy bid. We made the sale.

    Well, this lovely Volvo needed brakes, rotors and a lot of other expensive items. The airbag light AND the ABS light decided to light up a couple of days after we took it in.

    We sent it to the local Volvo dealer and we ended up with a bill over 3000.00 for make everything right.

    After about a month, it had to constantly be jump started. Oops, the battery and alternator both needed to be replaced and NOTHING is inexpensive to replace on a Volvo.

    The color turned off any potential buyers so three months later we took it to the auction and lost thousands of dollars.
  • volvomaxvolvomax Member Posts: 5,238
    Sometimes it's better to let people walk.
    Esp today w/ the U/C market in such turmoil.
  • stickymanstickyman Member Posts: 53
    Why can't the consumer have access to the Black Book as we
    do with NADA, Kelly, Edmunds? How do we determine the value
    of the vehicle that we own and what to sell to a friend ? I f we use
    anything other than the Black Book, then we really don't know a true/honest asking price.
    Just curious ;)
  • boomchekboomchek Member Posts: 5,516
    How do we determine the value of the vehicle that we own and what to sell to a friend

    c'mon stickyman. ;) Would you really sell your car to anyone for thousands less than what you wanted for it just because a (insert color here) book told you that's what it's worth?

    2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX

  • madmanmoomadmanmoo Member Posts: 2,039
    Great question. Why wouldn't that be available? Noone is ever happy with their trade-in value anyhow, lol.
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,244
    The color turned off any potential buyers so three months later we took it to the auction and lost thousands of dollars.

    You should have taken it to be painted at "Earl Schieb". I think they still have that $99 special. Could have saved you guys some big $$$.
    2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere, 2007 Kia Optima
  • stickymanstickyman Member Posts: 53
    Isn't that the way it is done in China using "Mao" Little Red Book ;) I guess with what is going on with Wall Street, we can't expect too many honest answers any more, Huh?? :confuse:
  • volvomaxvolvomax Member Posts: 5,238
    Great question. Why wouldn't that be available? Noone is ever happy with their trade-in value anyhow, lol.

    You have to have a subscription.
    Not something that someone who buys a car every 4-5 yrs is gonna pay for.
  • boomchekboomchek Member Posts: 5,516
    I wasn't happy with my trade in value I got from our own wholsalers when buying car from work recently, but after looking at the big picture I was actually elated to let my car go. :D

    2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX

  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Good answer but why not let the customer take a look at the black book when they are negotiating? Then we wouldn't have to grind so hard. Could it be that the dealer does not want you to see what the used car they are trying to sell you sells for at auction?

    This little black book is one of the reasons why people do not trust dealers. If they wanted to be completely transparent they would leave these things laying around for you to take a look at.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • mplshondadlrmplshondadlr Member Posts: 409
    I always suggest to my customers to take an average of the three most widely used vehicle valuation soruces; edmunds, kbb and nada. I ask them to be honest about vehicle condition which is usually at best "fair" condition.

    You'll see that all three are very different but when averaged out, they are pretty close to Manheim reports, also know as MMR.
  • greanpea68greanpea68 Member Posts: 1,996
    Noone is ever happy with their trade-in value anyhow, lol.


    I never get a hug when I give some one their Actual trade value.... :cry:

    I had a guy last night who had a 1999 Ford F150 XLT, 4x4, V8, extended cab. Now I always ask what the milage is before I go out to the vehicle and he tells me 160k. Now I know what you are thinking, the same thing I was ... This truck must be worth alot :P .... Now when I go out to the vehicle his odometer isn't working. i have notice that to be a common problem with the Ford trucks with the electrical display.

    I offer him $1500. The truck runs a little rough, can't prove the milage, needs tires and God only knows what else... Now here is the best part... He thinks it is worth $6000. I ask him where he came up with that KBB ( I am just guessing), Edmunds?? He says nope.... That is just what I think it is worth. I love that line. I ask him if his aware of the situation of the so called gas crisis and the financial crisi of the country? He says yep. And than he says that's how he knows I am going to give him all $6000 and also take $5000 off a Murano because we (the dealership) needs to sell cars and he is going to take advantage of the situation :lemon:

    Thats when I reply "No problem I understand what you are thinking but I am only going to take $2300 off the Murano and I went all the way up to $2000 for his vehicle. You probably already guessed that he was going to have to think about that offer. I told him no problem we would think about too. Needless to say he isn't answering any calls today on the last day of the month which is fine because I think we were a little high at $2000 for his vehicle :lemon:

    GP
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,256
    i am pretty sure it was on one of these forums, someone posted a link to their cu, which has a link to the 'black book'.

    use your search skills to find it. :P
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • greanpea68greanpea68 Member Posts: 1,996
    we can't expect too many honest answers any more, Huh??


    You lost me.... Who can't you expect honest answers from?

    GP
  • greanpea68greanpea68 Member Posts: 1,996
    This little black book is one of the reasons why people do not trust dealers

    I don't believe that to be true. I have showed the black book numbers to people, I have showed the galves book to people.... Ya know what? It doesn't matter if I show it or not because people are going to believe what they want to believe anyway.

    Lets say the dealerships left this book lying around. Do you think it would make a difference? No... it wouldn't. You can look up invoices on line... here at Edmunds... does that help? in my opinion I think it complicates things sometimes. The reason I think that is because now that everyone knows that info they want to pay invoice or less. So now you want to know auction values. Than people will want to pay invoice and auction value leaving no room for profit... It is already bad enough that KBB's and edmunds are higher than actual auction values.

    Let me ask this question.... If the consumer did have all the exact information.... What would be a fair profit for a dealer to make?

    Salespeople at dealerships everywhere want to know ;)

    GP
  • boomchekboomchek Member Posts: 5,516
    He wants to get retail for his and pay wholesale for yours. Nice. Ask him for a dealer's license, and maybe then you can talk turkey,

    I showed book values numerous times to people, and they always look at the cover, and look at the back of the book, for some reason they think we printed it at the dealership for fun wiht our own magical numbers in there. :confuse: :confuse:

    I think I told this story before but I'll say it again.

    Guy wants to buy a Civic and trade in his beat up 10 year old Neon. The Neon's odo is not working, the windishield is cracked, the brakes make noises, the car is a junkyard candidate. It's also 5 speed manual.

    He wants $3000 for it. We offered $500. He says he'll get more for it elsewhere. I say ok. He comes back in a week and says he'll take $1000. I show him book value. It's worth $350, BUT deduct $500 if not equipped with an automatic tranny.

    I tell him, if you want to trade it in, you have to pay me $150!!! He then said he'll take the $500.

    So we did a deal and everyone was happy. :D

    2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX

  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    for stating what we already know, if the guy I sold an A8 to last month found out I got a $100.00 spin from Audi for seliing that 08 A8, he'd probably want a cut of that as well.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    The different price guides are attempting to reflect different things is the problem but they don't explain that very well.

    A private party buyer isn't going to see Manheim prices on the street

    A private party buyer will see considerably lower prices than KBB high book.

    A private party seller probably won't see those Trade-in values posted online, on a dealer's offer.
  • bmmeupbmmeup Member Posts: 29
    I told him no problem we would think about too.

    Now that's funny!
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,290
    Guy wants to buy a Civic and trade in his beat up 10 year old Neon.

    I hold no qualms about what my trade in will be worth. It will be a 9 year old car with close to 170K miles on it. The only real thing is some minor damage from an accident that I never got fixed. I took the insurance money and put it in my account for my down payment. Since the insurance company paid me almost $1,300 my guess is that I will come out ahead just by pocketing the money for a down payment. I'll be happy with $500 for it as a trade in allowance considering its age and mileage but I will try for more. :blush:

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • corvettecorvette Member Posts: 10,237
    Between the high interest rate on the Audi and their reputation for needing costly repairs, they need to pay it down and dump it as soon as the payoff is below what they can sell it for. BF seems to still have decent credit. GF will probably have to BK to get rid of the foreclosure deficiency judgment if they live in a state that allows deficiency judgments. Either way, their next car will probably have to be bought and financed in BF's name.
  • burnrubberburnrubber Member Posts: 1
    I'm in the process of purchasing a 2008 EX-35, which features xenon action headlights. The sales person hasn't done a good job explaining how they work. He stated that the lateral movement on the headlights only functions when the vehicle is moving at 15 mph or faster. Does anyone have an accurate explanation?
  • ventureventure Member Posts: 2,860
    Let me ask this question.... If the consumer did have all the exact information.... What would be a fair profit for a dealer to make?

    I think it would depend on the retail value of the new car (I'm not talking used here). The last car I bought was $34k retail. I offered the dealer a profit of $1,000 including the trade. I must have been wrong because he then tried to steal my trade. :surprise:

    2020 Ascent Limited, 2024 Subaru Legacy Sport

  • greanpea68greanpea68 Member Posts: 1,996
    I'm in the process of purchasing a 2008 EX-35, which features xenon action headlights. The sales person hasn't done a good job explaining how they work. He stated that the lateral movement on the headlights only functions when the vehicle is moving at 15 mph or faster. Does anyone have an accurate explanation?


    In other words you have to be driving the vehicle. It is not going to move if you are just driving around a parking lot.

    GP
  • madmanmoomadmanmoo Member Posts: 2,039
    They are dynamic turning lights, right? They don't turn unless you are going faster than 15 mph. Pretty simple. The turning lights are not necessary at slow speeds and would just end up being distracting.
  • volvomaxvolvomax Member Posts: 5,238
    Good answer but why not let the customer take a look at the black book when they are negotiating? Then we wouldn't have to grind so hard. Could it be that the dealer does not want you to see what the used car they are trying to sell you sells for at auction?

    This little black book is one of the reasons why people do not trust dealers. If they wanted to be completely transparent they would leave these things laying around for you to take a look at.


    It really doesn't matter. Customers will believe what they want to believe.
    If their favorite source is higher, thats what they will believe.
    I've had customers in my office while I'm on the phone w/ a wholesaler, they STILL won't accept the trade value.

    BTW, car dealers don't want to and don't need to be transparent. What we pay for cars, what we put in your trade is none of your business. The only thing the buyer needs to be concerned with is what we are OFFERING you. If you don't like the deal, walk away.
  • tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    What we pay for cars, what we put in your trade is none of your business.

    I'm not sure it's all that black and white. An informed customer wants to know what the market is for that vehicle and that is best reflected in the price others are willing to pay and have paid for the vehicle. What could be more relevant to market pricing than what you, as a dealer, just paid for that very same vehicle? :)

    tidester, host
    SUVs and Smart Shopper
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Sorry but I agree with volvomax.

    What a merchant, ANY merchant pays for his product is none of anyone's business. The item for sale either represents good value to the buyer or it does not.
  • volvomaxvolvomax Member Posts: 5,238
    I'm not sure it's all that black and white. An informed customer wants to know what the market is for that vehicle and that is best reflected in the price others are willing to pay and have paid for the vehicle. What could be more relevant to market pricing than what you, as a dealer, just paid for that very same vehicle?

    The market for a car is not determined by what a dealer pays for a car.
    If you buy a new car, and market price is MSRP, it doesn't matter that the dealer invoice is $3000 less. You STILL have to pay MSRP if you want the car.
    Same thing w/ a used car. If I get a car for free, I'm still gonna sell it for what the market will bear.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    That will always determine what a commodity item sells for.

    I like the free car anology.

    What if we won a contest and Honda sent us a free Accord?

    Would we sell it for 1000.00 and be happy to have made 1000.00 or would we sell it for whatever the prevailing market was?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Since when did Price Guides take on the authority of the Holy Bible?

    Price Guides are simply that... GUIDES...they are not prices set in stone.

    Everything....EVERYTHING is negotiable in the car biz, for dealer and customer.

    My attitude about price guides?

    1. All used cars are different

    2. They put me in the correct $5,000 + or - grouping.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,146
    No, not at all. But if I can look at auction prices for a particular vehicle of a particular make/model, I, as a consumer, get a general idea of what the dealer paid for it. I can then take a GUESS (and yes, it's a guess) at what kind of offer a dealer might find attractive. Sure, there are cars that need reconditioning. But if I've got a ballpark idea of what a dealer would pay for a particular year/make/model, I might adjust my offer.

    You get a free Honda? No, a logical person is not going to believe you'll sell it for $1000 just because that would be "profit." But they *might* believe that if you got an offer for it today at $500 off the selling price on one you paid auction value for, you might just sell it because it represents an attractive profit AND a quick sale.

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  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    But the average person can't access auction results and even so, the auction numbers reflect average ranges.

    Then there are transportation charges, reconditioning etc...

    And, yeah, if we really were to recieve a free Honda, we just might make someone an extra special deal.

    I'm not holding my breath on that one! ;)
  • volvomaxvolvomax Member Posts: 5,238
    Since when did Price Guides take on the authority of the Holy Bible?

    Well, mainly because the people behind this website and others like it have conditioned the public to believe that the information here(and on these guides) IS gospel. ;)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Nah nah that's not what Edmunds says about its True Market Value pricing.

    Price guides don't kill people, people kill people :P

    But generally I'm with you dealer guys on this one. Why should a customer CARE what the dealer paid? The car, being used, is different than any other car, even one identical to it, down the block.

    So each car has to be regarded as speaking for itself.

    Look at it this way. If a car is exceptional, the dealer paid more to get it.

    I've been to dealer auctions and sometimes I even think dealers pay too much. But they "see" a profit in the car. Maybe they know something I don't. Or maybe they won't be in business in 2 years.

    Dealers make mistakes, too, and get buried in a car just like ordinary people. The recon is more than they planned.
  • volvomaxvolvomax Member Posts: 5,238


    I've been to dealer auctions and sometimes I even think dealers pay too much. But they "see" a profit in the car. Maybe they know something I don't. Or maybe they won't be in business in 2 years.

    Dealers make mistakes, too, and get buried in a car just like ordinary people. The recon is more than they planned.

    Yep. We've all paid too much for cars. We've all lost money on cars.
    U/C managers get fired every day because of this.
    It's nobody's business but our own.
  • tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    What a merchant, ANY merchant pays for his product is none of anyone's business.

    Why? Just because you declare it to be so? What the merchant pays still looks to me to me to be one more thread in the fabric of the market and customers can use all the information they can get.

    Yes, the item for sale either is a good value to the buyer or not but knowing what the dealer paid will help to determine the true value. If I see that you're selling it for twice what you paid I'm definitely going to reassess my valuation of the car. :)

    tidester, host
    SUVs and Smart Shopper
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    We disagree but that's fine too.

    I recently bought a new refrigerator for our garage and I couldn't care less what the store I bought it for paid for it and even if I did care, it's really none of my business.

    I really don't think cars are any different. But, that's me.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Any object that is bought or sold will have a kind of "bell curve" of points of sale.

    On one end, you'll have the outliers in the "bargain" department, where less than market price was paid; on the other end, outliers who paid way too much and who will be punished by the market.

    But that fat, sweet spot in the middle is the "real" market, so IMO what the dealer pays on one particular car is only a database of one, not enough for the consumer to establish the value of his car, or the car he is buying.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    You are spot on.

    There are some cars that will "break the bank".

    A couple of years ago, we took in a 1993 EX Accord that was "still in the wrapper". It had, I think, 24,000 miles on it and it was as perfect as a car can get.

    The customer knew what he had and he demanded way over book for it which we gladly paid him.

    Because of age, we replaced the timing belt, water pump, seals etc. When we were done, we were in it over RETAIL book.

    Now, a customer using the various books would have never bought it but it sold quickly to a person who realized exactly what it was. He plans to drive it into the ground. He loves that body style as do many others.
  • tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    If we all agreed on everything life would be pretty boring.

    I don't think comparing cars with refrigerators is valid. When I buy a refrigerator I'm buying it for the life of the product and will not trade it in or obtain any other compensation for it at the end of its life. When I buy a car I expect it to have some value down the road when I sell it. The minute I drive that car off the lot its value drops by at least the difference between what you paid for it and the price I just paid. I have a vested interest in knowing what that figure might be and it becomes an integral part of how I value that car.

    And, Shifty, it may not be a complete picture but it is certainly relevant. (See above.)

    tidester, host
    SUVs and Smart Shopper
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    I have no problem with anyone who disagrees with me.

    I think it's just wonderful that people have no idea what we paid for a particular used car! Some are even brazen enough to ASK!

    And...are you saying my old refrigerator had no value?? :P
  • exb0exb0 Member Posts: 539
    i am pretty sure it was on one of these forums, someone posted a link to their cu, which has a link to the 'black book'.

    here is the link
  • mattandimattandi Member Posts: 588
    This is a case study in all the mess playing out all around. "Let's borrow our way out." :sick:

    Boyfriend/girlfriend situation. We start off less than solid.
    An ex-hubby who ain't all that much of an ex. There's still a house in the mix about to be foreclosed. Not looking much better.
    Buried in debt on 2 cars. $1300 a month outlay. whew
    Considering a Rougue, A3, or WRX. ummm, how about lowering the expectations a little.
    There is some positive cash flow. They are making extra payments. That's a positive, but I'm guessing there is no available pool of cash otherwise available.

    Sell the Supra. Get whatever it will bring.
    Use the proceeds to cover at least some of the negative on one of the other 2 cars. Borrow the difference from a relative, and then sell that car. My vote goes to the Audi. That girl needs to get out from under that. (she needs some serious financial counseling, maybe short sell the house, cut losses and start over) My guess is they will choose to dump the Malibu however.
    Plow everything extra into paying off the remaining car. The Malibu could be paid off in less than a year. Piling on the miles, it won't be worth much, but it sure beats paying interest on cars you don't even own anymore.
    Move on. Done right, his credit could be top tier by then, and hers could even show improvement.
    Buy a decent used, reliable car. Start saving the balance then available in the monthly budget.
    If the relationship survives, get married.
  • mattandimattandi Member Posts: 588
    And...are you saying my old refrigerator had no value??

    That depends. Does it come stocked with cold beer?
  • volvomaxvolvomax Member Posts: 5,238
    Yes, the item for sale either is a good value to the buyer or not but knowing what the dealer paid will help to determine the true value. If I see that you're selling it for twice what you paid I'm definitely going to reassess my valuation of the car.

    There is no one single "true" value. You have a wholesale value and a retail value.
    If I am lucky enough to trade for a car for less that I should, I am under no obligation to sell it for less than I should.
    If I overpay for the car, will you pay me more because of it?
    Of course not.

    My profit margin is nobody's business.
    Would you like everyone to know what you make?
    Of course not.
    Why? First of all, it's nobody's business. Second, people will treat you differently.
    I WISH you had to deal with what we have to deal with. You'd change your tune in a hurry.
  • greanpea68greanpea68 Member Posts: 1,996
    Why? Just because you declare it to be so? What the merchant pays still looks to me to me to be one more thread in the fabric of the market and customers can use all the information they can get.

    It doesn't matter what a dealer paid for a vehicle. All that matters is what the market call for a vehicle. Knowing exactlt what a dealer pays doesn't matter. With all respect and yes this started many moons ago. Web sites like Edmunds, KBB, and the rest of them make a living on providing information to the public on car buying..... The reason that started was because years ago car dealers "were taking " advantage of people..... Well now I almost want to say that these so called information sites are exploiting the car business.... These sites are makong money off dealerships by providing information. So now the tables are turned in favor of the public.... I am all for treating people right and building relationships.... I need that for my business to grow and "profit"..... But if every one wanted to pay what we owned the vehicles for how could a dealer ever make profit?

    Tidster or really anyone this isn't directed at Tid, just replying to a post.... When you go to the grocery store, the best buy, the hom depot, the sears???? Do you know what they pay for materials, shipping, labor? I don't. I look at the label and decide is I can afford it...

    OK Rant over

    GP
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,200
    ...then why do dealers say: "I've got more than that into it.. I can't take a loss."

    It's either about market value, or it's not..

    Most dealers are just like customers... What they pay for something, or what they owe on it, has an effect on the perceived value of that object..

    In fact, dealers are just like customers.. If it's the other guy's $100, then it's only a lousy $100... why won't they give it to me.. If it's your $100, then it means everything in the world...

    Oh yeah... Used refrigerators aren't worth diddly... :)

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  • duke23duke23 Member Posts: 488
    GP wrote :
    "It doesn't matter what a dealer paid for a vehicle. All that matters is what the market call for a vehicle. " That is irrefutable . Demand determines the price. Earlier this year some buyers were paying over msrp for the Genesis.
    While in general Chrysler products could be had for a song .Not knowing too much about music, I'd venture not even a very good song.
    While not disagreeing with Mr. T's premise per se, I'd add that even with KBB, TMV or any pricing engine, the pockets of profit at a dealership are so convoluted and inside, you'll never know what true cost is to a dealership, Unless you beat the GM with a rubber hose under a bare lightbulb. Even then chances are 50:50. Dont try, educate your self as much as possible and strike your best deal. Keep in mind salesmen have families too, try to stick it to the dealership when ever possible.
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